(Sarcasm) Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 I know it's from a little ways back in the thread by now but as it seems to be the basis for a lot of the discussion I'd like to point out that the book talks about the practitioners 'discovering a thin barrier between worlds' and subsequently creating the breach based on that discovery. Because of the repeated use of words such as 'discover' and 'found' in the text I'd say It is entirely up to interpretation as to whether the thinness existed entirely throughout the world and so could be opened at any location. I assumed (and I could very well be wrong) that the 'thin barrier' they 'found' was in a specific location - nearby the unnamed city that gets flattened upon the opening of the breach. If I'm wrong then we're back to the Fetid - Tmod debate about the best choice of location. However, if the barrier thin-ness was location specific the practitioners may not have had a choice about where it could be opened (or may have merely detected the nearest point of fragility as other breaches - albeit smaller - have been since discovered). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 The thing that is noted as being discovered in the M2E text is that another world exists, not the barrier. Also, they created the city that got flattened, there is no information about what was there before so it can't have been very notable. Presumable they needed to build the city themselves as they used the street layout to create a large magic rune. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loveless Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 "Malifaux" sounds more like something the Cajuns would come up with (say it in a French accent and a Cajun accent - the latter is better ). Plus, I don't see "hon hon baguette" in the name, so how French can it really be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmod Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 On my phone, so I'll answer Fetid's excellent post when I get to a computer. In the meantime: "Malifaux" sounds more like something the Cajuns would come up with (say it in a French accent and a Cajun accent - the latter is better ). Plus, I don't see "hon hon baguette" in the name, so how French can it really be? Technically, Cajun means French, it was a derogatory term for all Frenchmen, but when it originated, France in the New World referred the huge French Louisiana colony as well as French Canada. Neither of those stayed under the French crown for very long, though... But to the point, Malifaux IS in fact a town in France, probably unbeknownst to the game creators. Search for "Saint-Genest-Malifaux" on Wikipedia... To claim this has any bearing on where the Breach is located would be beyond far fetched though, IMHO... ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matney X Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 New England, specifically in the crook of the states by Maine, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts. America in 1787 looked a lot like this... ... and I can't imagine someone would try to open the Breach somewhere not immediately populated. However, I can imagine them not doing it somewhere HUGELY populated (like England) on the off chance they screwed it up -- the British would happily sacrifice the Colonies before they messed around with England-proper. But the thing that seals the deal for me is Iggy's story -- In the first part of that, they mention Gorham County Jail (and in a way that suggests that the orphanage is in Gorham County, and in view of the jail). There's no "Gorham County" that has ever existed, but there are THREE cities of Gorham -- Maine (est. 1784), New Hampshire (est. 1832 (though settled in 1802)), and New York (est. 1786, named "Gorham" in 1822). (There's also Gorham Township in Ohio, but I can't find any dates related to that) I simply can't see Pandora importing her children across an ocean when there are so many orphans already available in Boston or NYC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmod Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 The Gorham family comes from the (presumably small) lost village og Gorhambury in Hertfordshire, England... Though again, probably not something the fluff writers have considered, or are even aware of... Edit: Ironically, the first Gorham came from the Norman province of Maine in what's now France... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Or the developers just chose a name that sounded cool and that has nothing at all to do with any real world connection! =D Or you're right and that's where the Breach is! =D Or the Breach is on the Moon! =D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matney X Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 The Breach is probably in Butterfield, Kansas (which doesn't exist) -- just outside of Topeka and Franklin (which also doesn't exist). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Just to add some more credence to the Breach being located in the "New Lands of America", historically there were plenty of high grade Magicians already in residence as well as plenty of secret societies that were operating here during the time period of the opening. Historically, there were also plenty of secret societies that were founded shortly after this period. The Spanish Inquisition was in full swing when the America's were "Discovered" and would have been very attractive to those trying to escape persecution and death. All across Europe, "witches" were actively being hunted and persecuted (the German Malleus Maleficarum was written during this time). Staying in Europe during 1480-1600 would have been akin to a death sentence for anyone with the talent and the Americas (and the heart of Africa) offered sanctuary and anonymity. Additionally, America wasn't actually that difficult to reach. In the 1960's a scientific team proved that even an ancient Egyptian style papyrus reed "boat" could make it across the Atlantic with very little effort. Along with this there is very strong indications the Chinese visited the western Americas substantially before Columbus. The Vikings as well have been proven to have visited substantially earlier than old Christopher and their spread is proven as far west as Wisconsin. The Polynesians were also excellent seamen and known to have sailed the Pacific with great frequency establishing communities across the entire ocean (Easter Island being of great significance). Hell the Knights Templar are even rumored to have traveled to the new world to hide their greatest treasures. All of these cultures practiced "magic" and would have had priests, wizards or shamans with their fleets. This is in addition to the large populations of Native Americans that were already here and had practicing magicians (good thing the European's "discovered" the Americas or the Native Americans would never have known it was here : ). These cultures all had very strong "magical" traditions. The mound builders, Navajo, Aztec, Inca, Mayan, etc were all very advanced cultures that practiced "magic". There are plenty of "sacred" sites that rival anything found in the old world. Just to name a few you have the Nazca lines, the Great Mound and Woodhenge, Easter Island and the Incan/Mayan/ Aztec pyramids. All of these predate Columbus and this is just scratching the surface of available sites. To me it makes more sense for the Breach to have been found and opened in the Americas (where possibility was unbound) than it does the Old World (where things were already established). I do appreciate though, that the authors chose to leave this answer ambiguous, the debate is more fun than the answer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 It's stated in the opening M2E fluff that magic was an integral part of society in the setting, so the persecution of "witches" in reality is not very relevant. Reed boats* etc is not relevant either as there were regular ships going back and forth at the time, the question is if there was enough infrastructure in place for transporting them in the (unknown) qualities required, as practitioners gathered from "...every corner of the globe". * I think you should actually cross the Atlantic in a reed boat before you call it easy! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Never called it "easy" however did say that it required "very little effort". Thor Heyerdahl did crossings of both the Pacific and Atlantic to prove his theories that ancient man was much more mobile and capable than we think. The argument though was more that crossing the Atlantic to come to the Americas wouldn't require advanced craft or passage on a "modern" period sailing vessel. Additionally, we do not know there wasn't an "inquisition" period prior to the opening of the Breach in 1787. The Inquisition would have been rolling into its 300th year by that point and well past successfully "dwindling the flow of magic on Earth" and turning it "into the stuff of myth and legend". Magic was not an "integral part of society" prior to the Breach opening, the fluff clearly states that it was dying and that "even the simplest cantrips was far beyond the grasp of any but the most skilled practitioners of the arcane arts". Magic only becomes an integral part of society after the breach opens and it becomes possible again via the aid of Soulstones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmod Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Never called it "easy" however did say that it required "very little effort". Thor Heyerdahl did crossings of both the Pacific and Atlantic to prove his theories that ancient man was much more mobile and capable than we think. The argument though was more that crossing the Atlantic to come to the Americas wouldn't require advanced craft or passage on a "modern" period sailing vessel. Additionally, we do not know there wasn't an "inquisition" period prior to the opening of the Breach in 1787. The Inquisition would have been rolling into its 300th year by that point and well past successfully "dwindling the flow of magic on Earth" and turning it "into the stuff of myth and legend". Magic was not an "integral part of society" prior to the Breach opening, the fluff clearly states that it was dying and that "even the simplest cantrips was far beyond the grasp of any but the most skilled practitioners of the arcane arts". Magic only becomes an integral part of society after the breach opens and it becomes possible again via the aid of Soulstones. This is quite cool, I've been to the official Thor Heyerdahl museum, he was quite the hero here in Norway! :-) Although he never proved that anyone ever did this, he might have been the first one both to cross from Morocco to America and from South America to Polynesia. He only proved that it was possible, and most scientists rejects his theory anyway. He made a "wild guess", and when scientists rejected his claims as ridiculous because they were impossible, he simply did the travel himself to prove it was possible... Quite a cool guy, and stubborn even for a Norwegian... ;-) Actually, the Inquisition was about 600 years old when the original breach opened, but at this point in time held very little actual power. At the turn of the 18th century anti-whitchcraft was more prevalent in the new world than the old. Of course, this might have different in an alternate world... Still, I very much agree that the debate is better than the answer! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Scientist's are a difficult lot to convince of anything that is in opposition to their "established" world view. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Well, not only scientists. People in general have that issue. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Sarcasm) Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 The people I know don't have that issue so I'm not convinced anybody does! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupercal Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 The people I know don't have that issue so I'm not convinced anybody does! You must be one of those close minded scientists! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Never called it "easy" however did say that it required "very little effort". Thor Heyerdahl did crossings of both the Pacific and Atlantic to prove his theories that ancient man was much more mobile and capable than we think. The argument though was more that crossing the Atlantic to come to the Americas wouldn't require advanced craft or passage on a "modern" period sailing vessel. Additionally, we do not know there wasn't an "inquisition" period prior to the opening of the Breach in 1787. The Inquisition would have been rolling into its 300th year by that point and well past successfully "dwindling the flow of magic on Earth" and turning it "into the stuff of myth and legend". Magic was not an "integral part of society" prior to the Breach opening, the fluff clearly states that it was dying and that "even the simplest cantrips was far beyond the grasp of any but the most skilled practitioners of the arcane arts". Magic only becomes an integral part of society after the breach opens and it becomes possible again via the aid of Soulstones. At one point prior to the breach magic on earth was strong, otherwise no one would have cared or even noticed it going away. From the examples given I get the impression that it was part of society, but obviously people had to find other solutions when it was running down. But it was clearly not suppressed or in hiding as it going away was discussed in academia. As for the Inquisition, their main thing has always been heresy. In reality accusations of witchcraft falls under that since it supposedly involves worshipping Satan. In the setting either the Catholics approved of magic, perhaps with restrictions, or they weren't very influential. My own speculations on that particular point is that they early on accepted magic in the same way that they incorporated pagan practices and changed the trappings a bit in reality. So a Catholic magician would incorporate prayer in his spells, but that is perhaps another thread. I guess I fail to grasp any significant difference between "easy" and "very little effort". From the documentaries of Heyerdahl (which I grant I haven't seen in a long time) it didn't seem all that easy, the first boat sunk and if other people with a proper boat hadn't been around... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmod Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 The Inquisition is probably one of the most misunderstood organisations there were... The "real" Inquisition, after about 13-1400 only held jurisdiction in Rome, and didn't do all that much. The Spanish Inquisition only held jurisdiction in Spain and Spanish colonies, and was a national institution independent of the Pope/church. The Portuguese inquisition was much the same. I fact, much of the persecution of heresy/witchcraft was done by states, or by national protestant churches. Malleus Maleficarum was condemned by the Catholic Church already three years after the first publication... I think that in the alternate setting magic must have been around for a long time, so religions have either adapted to magic or died out... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 At one point prior to the breach magic on earth was strong, otherwise no one would have cared or even noticed it going away. From the examples given I get the impression that it was part of society, but obviously people had to find other solutions when it was running down. But it was clearly not suppressed or in hiding as it going away was discussed in academia. The same could be said of historical Earth. There was a time when "magic" was very strong, common place and an excepted part of society (and not all in the distant past either). As Science and Industry pushed forward, magic fell to the way side though it was never really forgotten. You can see this even in today's modern society where their are still practitioners of "Magic". Granted I'm probably not going to change your mind but I am enjoying the debate. From the documentaries of Heyerdahl (which I grant I haven't seen in a long time) it didn't seem all that easy, the first boat sunk and if other people with a proper boat hadn't been around... That first boat (The RA) sunk due to a mid journey decision to modify the structure which caused it to sag, take on water and break apart. Even with this though the boat made it 4,000 miles and only two members of the crew (Heyerdahl and Baker) had any sailing or navigation experience.The second trip aboard the RA II however met with "great success". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiredgun Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 1787 in the fictional world could have been totally different from 1787 in our real world time line. the breach could be anywhere.... we have all ethnic groups in the game, Caucasians, Spanish, Native Americans,and Oriental. My vote is for Mexico,along the Gulf somewhere.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 I skipped the first three pages so forgive me if this has already been mentioned. ...but somewhere in Crossroads (maybe the Kaeris story? I can't remember) they mention that after the Breach initially, closed London was used to store artifacts from Malifaux. Would it thus make more sense that the Breach was located somewhere in the UK? Mind you, there have been some good arguments for the Breach being located in North America, Oxford being one of the better ones IMO. Also, a random, pot-stirring thought: With all the alternate history and time-line changing stuff that comes with Malifaux, has anyone stopped to think that maybe the "King's Country" is no longer the UK? Perhaps after the Black Powder wars the UK was left utterly decimated and the British monarchy moved to one of their colonies, like Australia? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loveless Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Ah yes, Jolly Old Australia - pip pip, cheerio, watch out for that drop bear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Sarcasm) Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Nobody talks like that anymore, you bloody drongo! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldarion Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 ...but somewhere in Crossroads (maybe the Kaeris story? I can't remember) they mention that after the Breach initially, closed London was used to store artifacts from Malifaux. Would it thus make more sense that the Breach was located somewhere in the UK? Mind you, there have been some good arguments for the Breach being located in North America, Oxford being one of the better ones IMO. Also, a random, pot-stirring thought: With all the alternate history and time-line changing stuff that comes with Malifaux, has anyone stopped to think that maybe the "King's Country" is no longer the UK? Perhaps after the Black Powder wars the UK was left utterly decimated and the British monarchy moved to one of their colonies, like Australia? I think that the general assumption has been that the flow of history has remained largely the same, despite the presence of magic. This is only really supported by having two or three location names that are consistent (London, Oxford). If we toss that assumption, than anything is fair game, from "The Byzantine empire never fell" on out to stranger ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 It has come to my attention that in the first book, in the story "Into the Breach", Leveticus is described as "The man looked like he was fresh of the boat from England..." and "His attention to etiquette and expansive vocabulary weren't virtues yet in style in the New World." which would seem to indicate that they are indeed somewhere in the Americas. As for Geopolitics, Malifaux is compared in appearance to New Amsterdam at one point, which is notable, since it was renamed New York in 1665 in reality. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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