Shot in the Rear...NPE? Whack with a Cuddle bat?

[Sevorin]

to be fair it would cost a 6 and a stone...which I totally would be ok with spending.

[dgraz]

to be fair it would cost a 6 and a stone...which I totally would be ok with spending.

or a 6 and a Lenny

[Bodiless]

Take control of one enemy model vs kill multiple enemy models........idk.

 

I don't know......I have no Ulix experience. I have plenty of Marcus experience....and I KNOW that if I could let a Cerberus continually charge for 1 AP people would cry foul. (Basing using the Shot on The Sow......which is pretty similar on the attack.)

 

And they would be absolutely right to cry foul. Having dug out the cards that really does seem like a combination that managed to slip through beta. And anything that can pac-man its way through Illuminated, one of the most notoriously difficult to kill models, as the other thread described probably merits a raised eyebrow and a second look. 

[hypoking]

Honestly, as charge-bey it would still be a solid ability. Its not like the rest of hunting bow's bad either, I mean that's a sweet gun even if Ulix has difficulty finding a nice open place to shoot from. The everlasting rampage bit does push good taste a bit in certain match ups.

 

So we're clear though, does anybody have any problems with the Sow other than this particular bit of synergy? I only ask because if something ends up happening here I would hate for it to happen to the wrong model.

[dgraz]

 

So we're clear though, does anybody have any problems with the Sow other than this particular bit of synergy? I only ask because if something ends up happening here I would hate for it to happen to the wrong model.

That I can't weigh in on. We didn't beta any Gremlins in my small group, and no one has been playing them much yet at my LGS (though one is just starting).

 

I think it's comparable in other ways to the Cerberus which tells me it should probably be equal in points instead of 1 point cheaper. It has some things that are lesser, but some things that are better so for me it's too tough to call just on theory (and really only looking at it in a vacuum)......I can only judge it based on what I could do with its attacks as if it were like the Cerberus (if I pretended that I couldn't pull off the Maul Trigger)......which is why the Shot in the Rear got my attention. It's the only thing I can intelligently discuss with any real game experience......anything else is just theory.

 

I agree that the bow is good. If it gave one Charge for a (1) action it would probably still be a good Upgrade......but that's theory.

[Sevorin]

Nope, the Sow is not a problem. 

 

 The only reason this combo is a problem is because it is consistent. If it was a lot harder to pull off, I'm not sure I would bat an eye at it.

 

 I mean, I remember early beta testing, and Zoraida was seriously combed over because the change of charge from 1st to 2E was large (a  to the damage flip, vs 2 attacks) and I seem to remember it being decided that allowing Z to obey to allow a charge was too much. It was even taken further to decide that Z obeying a model to make a model use the same 1 ap ability was too much. I understand that Z has access to more models than Ulix does, but the effect is generally the same. Getting a charge off on a 1 ap obey is damn good. Being able to chain it goes over the line. 

[Somnicide]

I'd be surprised if there were changes before the model was even released.

[dgraz]

Nope, the Sow is not a problem. 

 

 The only reason this combo is a problem is because it is consistent. If it was a lot harder to pull off, I'm not sure I would bat an eye at it.

 

 I mean, I remember early beta testing, and Zoraida was seriously combed over because the change of charge from 1st to 2E was large (a  to the damage flip, vs 2 attacks) and I seem to remember it being decided that allowing Z to obey to allow a charge was too much. It was even taken further to decide that Z obeying a model to make a model use the same 1 ap ability was too much. I understand that Z has access to more models than Ulix does, but the effect is generally the same. Getting a charge off on a 1 ap obey is damn good. Being able to chain it goes over the line. 

I remember that well.....which is one of the things that surprised me when I read the bow. (Perdita player here so the Obey change impacted her as well)

 

I'd be surprised if there were changes before the model was even released.

If it's determined that the thing is OP then I hope they'd change it as soon as possible.

[Somnicide]

The thing is that there isn't a mass playing them yet which makes it hard.

[Omenbringer]

Not that I disagree but that argument could be made for a lot of the models.

[Somnicide]

Honestly I expect Colette to be worse to play against

[rgarbonzo]

Take control of one enemy model vs kill multiple enemy models........idk.

 

I don't know......I have no Ulix experience. I have plenty of Marcus experience....and I KNOW that if I could let a Cerberus continually charge for 1 AP people would cry foul. (Basing using the Shot on The Sow......which is pretty similar on the attack.)

Except the Cerberus has a better Ml stat and would continually hit more often

 

And they would be absolutely right to cry foul. Having dug out the cards that really does seem like a combination that managed to slip through beta. And anything that can pac-man its way through Illuminated, one of the most notoriously difficult to kill models, as the other thread described probably merits a raised eyebrow and a second look. 

Why are illuminated brought up as a be all end all model? Their Df is the same as the Sow's Ml and they have Armor +1. Honestly the only reason they are hard is if you don't kill one in one activation then they will Regen and heal. If you can kill them before they activate (which is easier to do with a higher Stated model i.e. Sh or Ml 6 better) or with a positive flip 5 model (oh hi Rail Golem, didn't see you there), they fold, especially with a model with a high damage track. For all the theorizing going on there is little actual table experience. Now if this is a problem then obviously the RG with Kaeris can get outta control as well.

I actually has a Sow eat 2 Illuminated as well in one turn then charge Lilitu and get mauled. Course I got more pigs but they died quickly to that 4" engagement range. 

[dgraz]

Certainly it needs more data, but pointing it out like this allows the devs to see it.....then they can do their own internal testing as well to see if it warrants a second look.

[dgraz]

Except the Cerberus has a better Ml stat and would continually hit more often

The Sow is also cheaper, has a self-heal trigger to keep it over the 5 wound threshold, has Terrifying (ALL), Smell Fear built in, a Summon and an auto-Summon upon death.

The Cerberus has one point higher Df, Leap, and Unimpeded with a shorter charge move.

It's the all important plus flip on attack and damage and the high damage track that really matters here.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Yep, The Sow's a really good model! And works well with Shot In The Rear!

I don't think anyone here except Justin (if he's watching) gets to decide if it's too good and needs nerfing.

I can say that I've used it in play and it's one of Ulix's best actions, but that I don't use it every time and it doesn't work every time.

In Theoryfaux, it's broken because it's infinite charges. In practice, it's strong! But I don't know if that means it needs a new stat card, or if it just means that you need to prepare for it if you're playing against Ulix.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I had a few issues with the sows cost as she seems like a cut price rogue necro, but we didn't thoroughly test it in my group, so while I mentioned I had concerns I couldn't post reps to justify to the devs that it needed a cost increase. Ma and Ophelia were the only gremlins that got any testing in our group and they generally didn't take pigs.

[rgarbonzo]

Except the one thing everyone is overlooking, the Sow has a paltry Df of 4. Hell even Bayou Gremlins can hit the dang thing! She relies on the Terrifying to be her defensive shield, anything that ignores that or passes the duel can make quick work of her. Also comparing her to a RN or a Cerberus is disingenuous, why you ask, there is only one Sow however the RN and Cerberus have no rare limit.

[dgraz]

Except the one thing everyone is overlooking, the Sow has a paltry Df of 4. Hell even Bayou Gremlins can hit the dang thing! She relies on the Terrifying to be her defensive shield, anything that ignores that or passes the duel can make quick work of her. Also comparing her to a RN or a Cerberus is disingenuous, why you ask, there is only one Sow however the RN and Cerberus have no rare limit.

Which is also disingenuous in my opinion.....because it ignores the fact that you rarely ever see more than one RN or Saber on the table anyway and ignores the plentiful.....plentiful healing abilities available to a Gremlin to get around the Df 4.

[Sevorin]

Meh, like I said, I believe the sow is fine.

 

 If there is a change to be made, it's on the upgrade.

[Adran]

True but they need a suit to continue. With shot in the rear just needs to kill the model no suits required.

For what its worth I get a set suit about 1 every 4 cards. I don't klill a model 1 every 4 attacks. Especially against someone who thinks that I might need to kill, and therefore is prepared to try and stop it.

 

It looks strong, but half the strength seems to be on surprise actions. Yes, It killed 21 points of models. I've seen Rasputina and Viktoria do exactly the same thing (in a completly different way) because the opponent didn't know and set up badly.

 

Is it possible for Ulix' opponent to set their models in a way that means that The Sow has a problem charging easy to kill models, or chain it to more then 1 model?

I think the answer is yes.

Does that distort your crew too much? I don't know, thats what I'fd have to see on the table. I've only faced Ulix a coupel of times, and haven't really had to deal with this yet, so my counters are also only theory.  

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yes you might get a suit every four cards, but your comparison doesn't work. You aren't able to trigger ongoing attacks every four cards because not only do you need the suit, you need to HIT with that suit. And its more difficult still because a smart opponent is either going to know you can trigger extra attacks on a particular suit, or when you are hitting them they are going to ask if you you have any triggers. There are invariably some times when an opponent would be willing to accept a hit from you, but less so when they know you can trigger additional attacks from a particular hit.

I can, if targeting the correct models, way more often chain attacks via killing then through hitting with the proper suit.

Again only commenting that your comparison is faulty, not that the balance skews one way or another.

[DeleteAccount]

One of the reasons I'm so edgy about gremlins stuff is that it's pretty much a given that they've had the least amount of external testing of all the factions. Doesn't mean we have to use the cricket bat on everything that looks funny, but there are a few eyebrow raisers. Still, I would suggest people stopped going into the "it should be fixed with X" mindset and more into argumenting why it's too good compared to other things, or better yet, active experience against and using it since again, the tremendous lack of Gremlin players due to no models makes it hard to get first hand info.

[Kadeton]

While that's true to some extent, I think most of the perceived problem lies in people being unfamiliar with Gremlins rather than them being untested. Literally every crew in the game can do stuff that makes you go "It does WHAT?" but once you've seen it a few times you get used to it and it's fine. So you settle into a groove and everything's cool and you've got a good feel for the game, then someone comes along with Gremlins and it throws you for a loop. That makes people upset.

TLDR: Gremlins can do some ludicrously powerful stuff, but so can everyone else.

(Anecdote: Last night my Viks crew killed half the enemy Lilith crew, including Lilith herself, by the end of turn 1.)

[Grez90]

Not really. With Alpha your spending 2 of your masters AP at close range needing 8   to even get off Alpha, and even then your only going to kill 1 model with a cerberus, with which your opponent has the opportunity to respond against something thats only defence is 10 wounds. Whereas on turn 2 with Ulix looking at his/the sows cards I'd be quite happy to use a pig to drag Ulix upfield turn 1, spend stones turn 1/2 to card cycle, spend his first AP both turns to draw 1 card with poke around, and then spend just the 1 AP to set off the Sow and in turn you can quite easily have crafted a hand of 4+ severes (8 cards from initial draw step, 2 turns of poke around followed by turn 2 stone for cards aswell) you are on average cycling to get 4 severes. Sow charges in with   flips and your more often than not forcing your opponent to cheat, with which you should have the hand to beat what they cheat (unless their base stat is higher than yours, which you wouldn't choose as a target in the first place), rinse repeat this a few more attacks and all of a sudden you've killed a ton of models and only potentially losing an 8SS model in return (thats if you've not taken out the enemy's heavy hitter) and your opponent cannot react to it, as you are basically getting anywhere between 2-6AP depending on how many cards your opponent has burnt from thier hand trying to do thier own tactics, or defend other models. Heck I'm seeing a very nasty alpha strike list involving Sow, Mancha Roja and 2 rooster riders in which you can literally spam a mass amount of high damage output attacks. Sow can charge off if it kills models from shot in the rear, Mancha Roja can have an even bigger threat range if positioned against a building, and have 3 ML7 2/5/6 attacks that all have great triggers, or at one less melee you can use his (0) action challenge to make your opponent burn even more cards by making them attack Mancha Roja instead of the threat that is the Sow. Then you have two Roosters going reckless and being able to potentially have 4+ attacks each that are not too shabby themselves from 15" away (reckless walk, 2 x charges 1AP each), and thats not even counting the potential stampede and the fact that bayou two card is basically paired (you will only ever use it if your losing).

 

I'm only thinking of things off the top of my head or first glances at cards, but even if your Sow only got 2 attacks on its shot in the rear, and the roosters only got to charge once (3 attacks each), your still talking about 30SS worth of models thats can dish out 13+ minimum attacks in one turn, all with weak damage atleast 2, and moderate damage atleast 4. All from atleast 11" inches away. Also you may not even want to do a lot of card cycling as you may have a decent hand to begin with, so could use Ulix to actually shoot with his bow, potentially giving blood trail trigger to make the Sow even more deadly. I don't know about you, but that would scare most crews, and you still have roughly 16 stones left for models like Merris, Major, Gracie (after Huntin Bow upgrade and Penelope).

[The Godlyness]

So do this write some battle reports so we can see how this went.