Dreamer Summoning, Is It Too Good?

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Mechanically, yes it is.

[mythicFOX]

<MOD HAT>

 

Friendly reminder to stay on topic. If people want to discuss the mechanics and power level of Lure that's a topic for a new thread.

 

</MOD HAT>

[EnternalVoid]

Actually, I don't believe you can, because the Dreamer passes off the effects of the attack, not dmg.

 

I could be wrong, but if it's the way I think it is, while yes, you could attempt to Lure the Dreamer, who would then pass the effect of the attack off onto a nightmare, and you could in theory Lure all the nightmares around him away to target him, in practice something you just Lured is going to activate again and get back to the Dreamer, or the Dreamer is going to activate and run into the new cluster of Nightmares.

 

I don't think Lure is very much a good solution to the Dreamer's vulnerability unless the Dreamer is playing badly and only has a single nightmare near him, and has messed his activation order up in such a way that you are able to exploit that mistake.

 

A fair point but he has to discard a card each time he passed the lure off.  So even if you did not get him with the first one you removed one of his 6 cards from hand.  If you triggered Undress as well you just removed 2.  Plus unlike his Df he has no mask built into his Wp, meaning there is a good chance he has to stone or cheat a card.  If he cheats that could be a 3rd card from one attempt, effective half his hand.  It is a viable option; if he does not use his trigger he is pulled possible out of protection, if he tries to stop it rather than pass it he will be dropping the sort of cards he would want for summoning, if he does pass it you might well be draining his hand faster.

 

I would see it as less of a way to get him as much as a way to drain his resources as he cannot let you pull the dreamer into an unsafe place.  He has to try and prevent being lured so he might have to accept the resource drain.

 

The sarcasm is because you throw a gigantic list of models at the thread and say, "This is the answer" but its not..

 

The question posed was;

excluding a handful of models, who can attack you on turn 1?

Those lists are simple an answer to that question.  Technically it is "the answer", cause it is an answer to the question you posed.  It is not an answer to how to auto win against the Dreamer but an answer to who can attack you on turn 1.  You will not have all of it, or even alot of those but you can have some.  They do exist and you don't need all of them to help you first turn.  Also I will restate this as I think it is important, but these models don't stop the Dreamer from summoning first turn, their jobs are to just do first turn strikes.  I did not attack dreamer at Adepticon or any of the other games I have played against him with these options, Generally I have picked apart other models in his crew, sometimes the summmons he just threw out.  Even killing Daydream two and three are an option as it governs Dreamer's turn if he has not gone a little and if he has already summoned you just made turn 2 a little harder to be summon heavy.  For me these early strikes were less a matter of stopping the Dreamer as much as it was preventing the build up or remove a key strong model like Teddy first turn.

 

Now I will agree with you that some of the sarcasm is not needed in replies, nor the unnecessary commentary.  But I also feel you are discounting the community a little.  If everyone was having difficulty with the dreamer I imagine alot of this thread would look different.  The fact that I think the majority of the replies have been that the Dreamer's Summon is very good, possible the best, but they don't think too Good is something you have to consider.  Just as you said in your opening post, your conclusions are from experience from your local Meta.  We are all the same.  Dreamer getting a strong hand first or second turn is very rough for the opponent, but so is Raspy and several other masters getting a strong hand first turn.  Despite the card system in my personal opinion Luck is still one of the largest factors in this game.  It might not be the same as with Dice based games but I feel it is still one of the biggest factors in Malifaux.  That said it also stops it from being like Chess and Navia Dratp.  It makes the game alot harder to predict and can make games with similar models, Strategies, and schemes vastly different.

[Csonti]

Theoryfaux is a fine activity and I used to entertain myself with that regularly but I think an actual game (or two) between people on the different side of the frontlines could help a hundred times more than a few more pages of intellectual strikes and riposts. Go and play a game on Vassal and we shall see.

(Without any meaningful personal data I'm quite neutral in this debate but if needed I can volunteer to play against the Dreamer.)

[mythicFOX]

Theoryfaux is a fine activity and I used to entertain myself with that regularly but I think an actual game (or two) between people on the different side of the frontlines could help a hundred times more than a few more pages of intellectual strikes and riposts. Go and play a game on Vassal and we shall see.

(Without any meaningful personal data I'm quite neutral in this debate but if needed I can volunteer to play against the Dreamer.)

[zFiend]

Theoryfaux is a fine activity and I used to entertain myself with that regularly but I think an actual game (or two) between people on the different side of the frontlines could help a hundred times more than a few more pages of intellectual strikes and riposts. Go and play a game on Vassal and we shall see.

(Without any meaningful personal data I'm quite neutral in this debate but if needed I can volunteer to play against the Dreamer.)

 

That is really well said

[Jonathan Pickles]

Dreamer getting a strong hand first or second turn is very rough for the opponent, but so is Raspy and several other masters getting a strong hand first turn.  Despite the card system in my personal opinion Luck is still one of the largest factors in this game.  It might not be the same as with Dice based games but I feel it is still one of the biggest factors in Malifaux.  That said it also stops it from being like Chess and Navia Dratp.  It makes the game alot harder to predict and can make games with similar models, Strategies, and schemes vastly different.

 

I have not played with or against the Dreamer but I have used Nicodem a fair bit. I have not played enough to really get a handle on it but he does seem to show more variation in his power based on his hand in turn 1 & 2 than a lot of masters. If he can summon a couple of Hanged turn one & a Punk Zombie turn 2 it is a lot better than if he gets just a Necropunk turn 2.

I am perfectly happy with the randomness of the game - I have finally reconciled to Red Jokers on negative damage flips (it happens once a game     when it's on a 2hp Punk Zombie). I do wonder if summoning has a particularly high variance in its effectiveness depending on the fall of the cards (well of hands as no-one should summon blind).

I guess those other master you mention can remove a model or two turn one with a god hand & so gain a similar material advantage. 

 

I do not have enough experience yet to figure out if this is the case but I would be interested in other people's perspectives. 

[Somnicide]

Can we get a dedicated cuddle forum? Honestly these kinds of posts really diminish my fun of the game and I actually stopped playing something I has been having fun with based on all the Belle spam whine before. If they need to be discussed power wise that is fine but a dedicated forum for that discussion would be better. As it is posting these topics, not in the faction you play asking for help on dealing with those issues but instead posting in the forum where you percieve the problem to be really feels like you are attempting to shame the community into not playing it.

[hypoking]

I imagine any such forum would descend into a black hole of self loathing and hostility so quickly it would soon drag down the rest of this forum by dumb momentum.

 

How soon could we set that up?

[mythicFOX]

<mod hat>

 

Some content of the thread above has been removed. 

 

Telling others what does and does not entitle them to hold an opinion doesn't progress this thread down a happy road. 

 

I'd also like to ask you all, again, to please stay on topic. If you want to discuss something else please start a new thread for it. Thanks.

 

</mod hat>

[Sevorin]

 I think some Vassal games should be set up, and have this tested. We need to folks from the meta where dreamer is showing as too powerful to get involved. I'd honestly like to see data, than the claims (though, I do understand the claims need to be brought up, don't take me wrong). If it is indeed OP, it should be addressed. If not, then the discussion can be closed.

[The Godlyness]

Actually, I don't believe you can, because the Dreamer passes off the effects of the attack, not dmg..

 

I just want to be Perfectly clear you believe Damage from an attack is not an effect of the attack. You are not being serious i hope.

 

I am going to throw some things at you tell me how you think they work.

 

Df/Wp ( ) Safe In My Bed: After an Attack Action succeeds against this model, discard a card to make target friendly Nightmare within 3 suffer the effects of the Action instead as if it had been the target, including any Triggers.

 

5. Determine Success If the attacking model’s Duel Total equals or exceeds the defending model’s Duel Total and any TN (which may include required suits), then the Attacker has won the Duel and the Action succeeds. Apply results as applicable, which is often the Defender suffering damage or another ill effect.

 

Q: When do “After Succeeding” Triggers occur?

A: They occur after Step 5 of the Action sequence, so after applying the results of the Action.

 

 

Now dreamers trigger goes off first since he is the defender. making sure everyone understands that. so it goes off before any other triggers hence why it passes them off.

 

also if Damage is not an effect of an Attack action what is it?

[hypoking]

Given the context I believe he was only suggesting that lureing the dreamer might not have been a viable tactic.

[Fetid Strumpet]

That is correct. Someone suggested that you could just easily lure the Dreamer, which is totally false. The way that particular post was written is sounded like the poster believed that only dmg from the attack could be tossed to a nightmare, while in truth ALL the effects from the attack transfer, which means Luring the Dreamer almost universally means you lure a nightmare instead.

[The Godlyness]

ok good you just failed to extrapolate and used bad words lol.  suffers the effect not damage, see how one could be confused.

[Sevorin]

We should set up a BatRep thread. It would be nice to have this many pages of just BatReps to gather data from.

 

Are you all interested in posting BatReps?

[Justin]

Can we get a dedicated nerf forum? Honestly these kinds of posts really diminish my fun of the game and I actually stopped playing something I has been having fun with based on all the Belle spam whine before. If they need to be discussed power wise that is fine but a dedicated forum for that discussion would be better. As it is posting these topics, not in the faction you play asking for help on dealing with those issues but instead posting in the forum where you percieve the problem to be really feels like you are attempting to shame the community into not playing it.

 

I think this is actually a very good point.

 

Not the bit about the dedicated forum - I think that would become a black hole of hatred that would actually encourage these threads. But I think they do risk ruining the fun some people are having, and it does come with an element of shaming people for doing something they enjoy.

 

That said, balance discussion is more than welcome. Sometimes models are broken. But, frequently, different playstyles, metas, and luck are the bigger contributing factor. So, if you feel the need to start a thread like this, please at least listen when people are telling you how they deal with the model in question. It strikes me a lot of good advice has been given, but instead of people re-evaluating their positions, they are simply getting defensive, which leads to more and more hyperbolic arguments that make those on the sidelines feel even worse about using those models. This applies to both sides of the debate.

 

So, I would ask people to first make a thread in the faction that they play asking how to deal with broken model X before going into model X's forum and claiming it is broken. And, when you do make the "broken" thread, please try to listen to what is presented, whichever side you're on. This isn't a rule, I'm not going to enforce it, but I would appreciate it. I think, at some point, it becomes more about arguing and being the one to either point out the problem (or defend the model) than the actual game. And that makes me sad.

 

I'm locking this thread, feel free to start a new one. It seems people are gearing up to do some battle reports - that's great. I would love to see them.

 

Do over.