Dreamer ignorance

[Smokey616]

It is an awesome attack... Although for me it's worked really effectively perhaps twice to that great of an extent... My group got wise to it fast and as a result finding application can be a problem... Chompy tends to be a nice reason for the opposition to group together though... As does teddy

[Ikvar]

Got a new question about the Dreamer:

 

When you use his DF trigger safe in bed, how exactly does it work?

 

1. The Dreamer makes the duel as normal, but then fails the duel.

2. The dreamer discards a card to use his DF trigger.

3. a new duel will now occur with the enemy and new friendly nightmare model within 3, and if the friendly nightmare model have terrifying the enemy will also have to pass the horror duel.

 

or is it like this:

 

1. The Dreamer makes the duel as normal, but then fails the duel.

2. The dreamer discards a card to use his DF trigger.

3. The friendly nightmare model within 3 will simply take the damage the Dreamer would have taken, no horrors duels or anything else from the friendly nightmare model will be taken.

 

And will I have to discard a card for every attack the Dreamer wants to avoid?

[Adran]

You target the Dreamer. You run the duel against the dreamer. The Dreamer decalres the trigger, and if the attack succeds then can discard a crds to make a friendly Nightmare within 3 duffer the effects of the action as if it had been the target.

So basically, your second outcome.

It is not a new duel, it is the damage flip based on the accuracy of the duel against the dreamer. If the attack caused blasts, then they would originate from the nightmare

The nightmare also suffers things from the triggers, so if the attack triggered overpower, then the extra attack will be against the nightnmarel, and then the attacker would ahve to take Horror duels if needed.

 

Every time you declare the trigger, you will have to discard a card to moev the attack

[Ikvar]

Alright, so just to be sure- the enemy would not have to take the terrifying duel before he damages the first time, only if he gets some kind of trigger that makes him attack again, and this time only against the nightmare?

 

- this would really hamper my hopes of a good nightmare bodyguard with terrifying :/

[Ratty]

Yeah he is not declaring the nightmare the target of an Action or walking into his Engagement range, so would not need a terrifying duel.

[Ikvar]

So the only thing a bodyguard for the dreamer can do, is to take lots of damage?there are no neat tricks or anything you can do, to make people not want to target the dreamer?

[Smokey616]

The dreamer is target gold! If you can get a clear and unquestioned shot at him then your opponent has made a mistake or he wants you to go for the dreamer for some reason... Be it to entice you into a trap or just to make you think he is setting one...

The ability to keep summoning cheap nightmares to take the flak for him pretty much makes him a questionable target at best. Also I feel that this level of "protection", for a master, is awesome... And not many other masters can just pass off attacks ( guaranteed bodyguard scheme ) the way the dreamer can... At the start of this post I was very much in the "oh no! The dreamer has been neutered!" Camp... After readin the sage advice given on this post by the awesome henchmen ( ratty, static, Adran and others) and a few games with him applying this advice, I now rank him among my favourite masters along side seamus and douggie... He is by no means as stoopidly powerful as his 1st ed counterpart, but he plays in a more thoughtful and equally dangerous ambience while keeping a massively versitile modus operandi.... Don't fret that ya can't "do funky tricks" when someone targets your dreamer... Revel in the fact that that you can pass it off to a daydream or three... Then summon them all next turn

[Myth]

Ikvar, on 20 Jun 2014 - 1:21 PM, said:

So the only thing a bodyguard for the dreamer can do, is to take lots of damage?there are no neat tricks or anything you can do, to make people not want to target the dreamer?

 

Well, a model with Black Blood could do splash damage when the Dreamer sends attacks towards it. Though you'd want to make sure Dreamer doesn't get hit by the Black Blood himself.

 

I think Lelu and Lilitu are the only Nightmares with Black Blood built in, though a Black Blood Shaman could hand it out to someone like Teddy. (And, for that matter, could provide it to Dreamer so he isn't harmed by the splash damage. Though he'd lose the buff if he ever woke up Chompy.)

 

Stitched Together could potentially trigger Rotten Contents when hit. And, for that matter, could gain Reactivate if they get dropped to 1 Wd. (And could potentially heal above 1 Wd as soon as they Activate near the Dreamer.)

[Smokey616]

Well, a model with Black Blood could do splash damage when the Dreamer sends attacks towards it. Though you'd want to make sure Dreamer doesn't get hit by the Black Blood himself.

I think Lelu and Lilitu are the only Nightmares with Black Blood built in, though a Black Blood Shaman could hand it out to someone like Teddy. (And, for that matter, could provide it to Dreamer so he isn't harmed by the splash damage. Though he'd lose the buff if he ever woke up Chompy.)

Stitched Together could potentially trigger Rotten Contents when hit. And, for that matter, could gain Reactivate if they get dropped to 1 Wd. (And could potentially heal above 1 Wd as soon as they Activate near the Dreamer.)

The very reason the dreamer should be surrounded by 3 daydreams most of the time

[Ratty]

Black Blood I believe would still trigger, and I believe Lelu and Lilitu are both Nephilim and Nightmares.

[Smokey616]

Well that depends on if the new target has black blood or not surely?

[Smokey616]

Someone targets dreamer.... He passes it off to a daydream... No fear of black blood?

[Ratty]

Well yep, but what I'm meaning is you could pass the damage onto Lelu or Lilitu and they would pulse black blood. I was suggesting you use it offensively. But I'm a Molly player, so that is always my first thought.

[Smokey616]

So pass on the action, originally targeting the dreamer, to a lelu/liletu bodyguard (within 3") and expect your dreamer to not be blasted by your own black blood?! Not my favoured tactic I must be honest...

Obviously it all depends on board position... But to keep your dreamer within 3" of lelu/liletu (to get the defence trigger and use as a bodyguard) and expect this instance to be a viable tactic in avoiding damage from your own black blood, just seems like causing trouble for yourself.

Ok you may be in range (2") for a black blood on the opposition caused by his own attack... But it seems like a lot of risk for a small amount of damage. And as a result not an idea you want to be perusing as a means to further you're position in a game... Rather a nettle in the wrist if they try slapping you...

I suppose I'm too much of a miser to justify 2 dam in an aura for the pay off of; discarding an appropriate suit (if applicable), taking damage on lelu/liletu... And most importantly, the enemy being that close to the dreamer in the first place

[Ratty]

There are places where it can come in useful. But yeah I would hardly call it a tactic.

[Ikvar]

I thought about making a new thread for this, but thought it would be best to just keep it here.

 

After a few matches I think I am getting the feel for the Dreamer, however I see most of my battles divided in two ways depending on who I fight against- crews who have lots of AOE stuff, and crews who dont.

 

I am pretty comfortable fighting against crews with very little AOE, they are easy to tie up with lots of cheap models,  wp debuffs and with the Alps smother etc.

 

However I am struggling quite a lot against crews with lots of AOE, and even more so if the AOE is CA. So do anyone have a good tactic against crews like that?

[Myth]

Smokey616, on 20 Jun 2014 - 2:57 PM, said:

So pass on the action, originally targeting the dreamer, to a lelu/liletu bodyguard (within 3") and expect your dreamer to not be blasted by your own black blood?! Not my favoured tactic I must be honest...

Obviously it all depends on board position... But to keep your dreamer within 3" of lelu/liletu (to get the defence trigger and use as a bodyguard) and expect this instance to be a viable tactic in avoiding damage from your own black blood, just seems like causing trouble for yourself.

Ok you may be in range (2") for a black blood on the opposition caused by his own attack... But it seems like a lot of risk for a small amount of damage. And as a result not an idea you want to be perusing as a means to further you're position in a game... Rather a nettle in the wrist if they try slapping you...

I suppose I'm too much of a miser to justify 2 dam in an aura for the pay off of; discarding an appropriate suit (if applicable), taking damage on lelu/liletu... And most importantly, the enemy being that close to the dreamer in the first place

 

Yeah, I wouldn't say it is anything to build a crew around. Staying more than 1" from your friends but within 3" makes for some tricky positioning. On the other hand, the Twins aren't bad bodyguards for Dreamer in the first place, since they can recover health so quickly. So I can see times when you might want to make use of it, but I wouldn't go out of your way to try and make it happen.

[Smokey616]

That's what I mean... Yeah it's a viable defence option when having to resort to something... But he has so much at his disposal it seems strange to plan a black blood bomb... Especially when alps still exist... And exceedingly considering the power he can muster with other means

[Ratty]

Yeah it was more a response to are there any tricks you can do with this ability, which was asked. And it's one instance where you do more than just shunt the damage elsewhere.

[Smokey616]

And I use the twins more like an offensive edge... The ability to just pluck them from thin air for a spell can be a game throwing edge at times... Not saying you can't drum them up to take some flak... But sprung in the right situation those two can cause serious problems

[StaticVortex]

I thought about making a new thread for this, but thought it would be best to just keep it here.

 

After a few matches I think I am getting the feel for the Dreamer, however I see most of my battles divided in two ways depending on who I fight against- crews who have lots of AOE stuff, and crews who dont.

 

I am pretty comfortable fighting against crews with very little AOE, they are easy to tie up with lots of cheap models,  wp debuffs and with the Alps smother etc.

 

However I am struggling quite a lot against crews with lots of AOE, and even more so if the AOE is CA. So do anyone have a good tactic against crews like that?

It is good to have variety to our play style, and AoE crews causee a shift in mine every time.  First, don't bunch up!  By spreading out, you're forcing your opponent to select targets more carefully...and also means that we have to play more of a sneak attack game.  Second, your table should have blocking terrain...use it!  Can't stress this one enough.  They can't blast what they can't see, so use those buildings and dense forest segments to your advantage.  Your sneaky nightmares creep up behind trees and buildings and attack when the timing is right. 

 

Additionally, I have a tendency to take Lazarus and Killjoy when facing an AoE heavy list.  Is a huge point sink, yes...but you're summoning the rest, right?  Both are a considerable threat if not dealt with, and are more resilient than the rest of the crew.  Lazarus gives range that we normally wouldn't have...stick him next to a stitched, and you can Auto Fire for three shots, then Assimilate to Gamble the target as well.  It hurts.

[Smokey616]

It is good to have variety to our play style, and AoE crews causee a shift in mine every time. First, don't bunch up! By spreading out, you're forcing your opponent to select targets more carefully...and also means that we have to play more of a sneak attack game. Second, your table should have blocking terrain...use it! Can't stress this one enough. They can't blast what they can't see, so use those buildings and dense forest segments to your advantage. Your sneaky nightmares creep up behind trees and buildings and attack when the timing is right.

Additionally, I have a tendency to take Lazarus and Killjoy when facing an AoE heavy list. Is a huge point sink, yes...but you're summoning the rest, right? Both are a considerable threat if not dealt with, and are more resilient than the rest of the crew. Lazarus gives range that we normally wouldn't have...stick him next to a stitched, and you can Auto Fire for three shots, then Assimilate to Gamble the target as well. It hurts.

Nice though... I'm gonna give Lazarus a run out with the dreamer this weekend

[Ikvar]

So you would also recommend playing the summoning route when dealing with aoe crews?

[StaticVortex]

It depends on the strat/schemes of course...though I've found that summoner tends to do a bit better simply because you can pop out another nightmare when needed.

[Verdeloth]

What does a standard summoner dreamer setup look like for 50ss ? Just to get an idea how people play it