Dreamer ignorance

[Smokey616]

Hey guys... M2e newbie again.

First crew I ever bought when I started playing first edition was the dreamer... Mainly due to the awesome LCB sculpt looking so cool.

But after about three games it became quickly apparent that I wasn't going to get any enjoyment out of playing with him because it was so easy to just devour the whole opposing crew while being almost invulnerable... So he took a back seat for something less boring to play against for the game buddies...

Now he's been rubbed with the cuddle end of a massive gnarled stick and it looks like he could be fun again.

I realise this has probably been asked over and over but I can't seem to find previous threads, so I thought I'd just ask the dudes in the know.

Any ideas on making the waking thing tick a bit quicker, or maybe more importantly, better timed?

And any ideas for using other models with him that could possibly help with the burying side of stuff?

[Smokey616]

And if you have the upgrade that gives him accomplice does that mean that once you've summoned LCB, because its end of his activation choppy gets to go next? Or does that not effect because he's been burried rather than ended his activation in play?

[Lucidicide]

Well, in my experience, managing your waking is just a key part of playing him, and a balance for the eternal lcb. There is no real way to go faster, but with the right upgrades you can switch every activation... so that's pretty fast.

Unfortunately, dreamer ends his activation after being buried, so no accomplice.

What do you mean help with the bring side if stuff?

[Smokey616]

With regards the burying thing... I just meant are there any models you can think may help with the burying or unburying of certain models... Namely Some kind of non LCB beat stick (maybe teddy)? I don't really like the idea of having LCB unburied somewhere and having to wait an activation to hurt someone... And I suppose with my limited dreamer experience I see him and LCB as being very similar to seamus on the offence these days.. The timing is crucial and steps need to be taken to make sure he doesn't die... (Like using him with lilitu to lure them away from safety before chompy starts) I've not really looked into Tara's crew properly. I know she does some funky things but are they dreamer relavent?

[Mason]

Well, Lord Chompy Bits doesn't really bury anymore.  The Dreamer just summons a new Lord Chompy Bits each time his waking gets too high, and when Lord Chompy Bits dies (whether by being killed or sacrificing himself), the Dreamer comes back out. 

 

He actually doesn't really bury stuff anymore.  Tara's the one that buries models now.

[Smokey616]

Ah ok... So what advice came you give for ensuring that LCB doesn't get eaten? 7 wd, df 5 and no H2W is an easy one activation kill for certain models and you know your opponent is going to be looking for it... I suppose you could to some extent use that to your advantage and leave chompy out in a questionable area just to get you opponent to commit and put models where you need to trap them... If we can just summon a new chompy every turn then losing a couple probably isn't such a bad thing

[The Godlyness]

Don't over extend LCB cause if and when he dies he puts dreamer in base with himself before he dies. And if dreamer is all by his lonesome in the middle of an enemy crew, good chance he will die. Dreamer us a great support master. Treat him as such. Chompy is just their to get dreamer out of trouble and to hit something if the need arises.

[StaticVortex]

Smokey - Dreamer has two primary play styles with more subtle intricacies within each.  

 

First; you can play Dreamer as a summoner with the Dreams of Pain upgrade, and use him to summon nightmares to throw at the other crew and schemes.  Particularly good for strategies such as Reconnoiter.  The nightmares come in with a single wound and slow, unless you get the trigger to remove slow.  Dreamer has built in healing that corresponds to his waking condition.

 

Second; you can play Dreamer as Chompy with the Restless Dreams upgrade, often taken with the Tantrum upgrade, which will allow Dreamer to transform into Chompy within a single activation.

 

As dreamer, don't forget Dreamer's Empty Night ability to support his crew...specifically being able to remove a condition and cast it again for free.  Imagine this: summoner dreamer: summon two nightmares, use Empty Night to remove the condition from both, then either push one, heal, or give one fast and then lower his waking condition.  Now when those nightmares activate, they will heal two (and if you summoned the twins, additional healing takes place.  Don't forget that you can use his Daydreams to do more movement shenanigans with their pushes.

[Smokey616]

Excellent thank you guys... Some awesome points and ideas.

I suppose more than anyting the changes to him have made me think more about his approach at the start of crew creation... As opposed to turning up as the dreamer and being able to fulfil many roles and generally be a complete spanner in any crews works, just through sheer vicious versatility, you have to plan and hope to stick to it more closely... Just a shame he can't summon Teddy

[Smokey616]

Especially loving the idea of springing the twins... Partially healed and neither slow

[Ratty]

Just a shame he can't summon Teddy

Have a look a Mr Tannen .... *disappears into the shadows.*

[The Godlyness]

2 of 54 cards but hey it could happen.

[EnternalVoid]

It is entirely possible for it to happen.  During the Beta I summoned two Teddies back when his Cast was 7 *thus needed a RJ*.  My opponent conceeded turn 3 after I summoned the second one and it activated thanks to Accomplice.  At that point most of his crew was dead from a trio of teddies.  A game later that day I got another RJ in hand and summoned a teddy again.  His summon went down to Ca6 the very next week after several people posted how much a summoned Teddy can swing a game.  At the very least with Tannen you are paying an extra 6ss for the Possible option.

[Smokey616]

Ratty - cheers for the heads up! I haven't seen tannens m2e card yet but I'll keep more of an eye out for him now. Lunch and friends never really interested me... But then I never knew Mr Tannen could spoil someone's day like that

EternalVoid - So it's your fault I can't summon a teddy with dreamer!? You could have at least kept your luck with RJ's to yourself until the wave 2 beta was finalised

Although I can see why... No body likes being woken up by nightmare Rukspin

[Ratty]

Excellent thank you guys... Some awesome points and ideas.

I suppose more than anyting the changes to him have made me think more about his approach at the start of crew creation... As opposed to turning up as the dreamer and being able to fulfil many roles and generally be a complete spanner in any crews works, just through sheer vicious versatility, you have to plan and hope to stick to it more closely... Just a shame he can't summon Teddy

At the very least it makes all other summons easier. It's the difference between needing to SS to add a mask to your 10 of crows, and being able to use a 8 or 9 of masks to get your summon off. Or it allows you to bump up a summon you had in hand by 2 ranks.

[Smokey616]

Good point... Goin to give him his first m2e outing this weekend I think... Time to suck it up... I'm not unburying Teddy... I'm hiding him behind stitched instead

[Tigerstyle]

2 of 54 cards but hey it could happen.

 

I've done it 3 times in one game 

 

Like StaticVortex said, don't forget Empty Night.  Aside from summoning that is the action I use the most with the Dreamer, it's an amazingly good buff.

[Smokey616]

I've done it 3 times in one game

Like StaticVortex said, don't forget Empty Night. Aside from summoning that is the action I use the most with the Dreamer, it's an amazingly good buff.

3 times!?!? That must have been absolutely soul destroying to be on the Recieving end of I like

So I'm assuming the preffered method of cuddly toy delivery is now to stash him behind a stitches for a sprint to get him engaged as quickly as possible?

[Smokey616]

Smokey - Dreamer has two primary play styles with more subtle intricacies within each.

First; you can play Dreamer as a summoner with the Dreams of Pain upgrade, and use him to summon nightmares to throw at the other crew and schemes. Particularly good for strategies such as Reconnoiter. The nightmares come in with a single wound and slow, unless you get the trigger to remove slow. Dreamer has built in healing that corresponds to his waking condition.

Second; you can play Dreamer as Chompy with the Restless Dreams upgrade, often taken with the Tantrum upgrade, which will allow Dreamer to transform into Chompy within a single activation.

As dreamer, don't forget Dreamer's Empty Night ability to support his crew...specifically being able to remove a condition and cast it again for free. Imagine this: summoner dreamer: summon two nightmares, use Empty Night to remove the condition from both, then either push one, heal, or give one fast and then lower his waking condition. Now when those nightmares activate, they will heal two (and if you summoned the twins, additional healing takes place. Don't forget that you can use his Daydreams to do more movement shenanigans with their pushes.

With regards playing dreamer as LCB? Am I right in thinking he's got to successfully damage 4 times with twist reality (once with the ranged expert upgrade, and the rest of his normal ap) then chompy is unleashed with the opponent to activate, most likely with chompy close enough to attack on his activation... Maybe even likely that if you are trying to take out an important model then your opponent will be given this breathing space with which to come up with a solution? Any ideas for keeping him safe for that activation before he gets to kick ass? Seems a little difficult to have chompy in front of an enemy with all his ap left rather than spending some to get there... Or is he best reserved for goin for an enemy that has already activated?

[Adran]

To summon Chompy every turn you need to get to waking 4. There are several ways it could be done. He gets Waking by summoning models, and with his upgrades by shooting , and also from his defencive trigger.

The easiest way is to summon 3 alps/daydreams in a turn, and then shoot something with his Ranged expert. If you give the Dreamer fast then he could just summon 4 times. Shooting 4 times will also work, but as you say he has got to damage 4 times.

 

There is no way that I can think of to activate Chompy straight after the Dreamer, but I really wouldn't worry about it. He isn't that easy to kill. Its possible that he will die in the activation before he gets to go, but your oppownnt will need to use one of their best models to get that sort of damage in one activation. And you can just summon him again another go. Because everytime you are summonign lord Chompybits, every single time you get a brand new one regardless of what happened to the old one.

 

Its possible because of this to summon Chompy in turn 1. Using him in turn 1. Use him again in turn 2, then sacrifice him to bring the dreamer out, and summon Chompy again in turn 2 and activate the new chompy. Repeat this every turn (if you can) and you get 9 activations of Chompy in a 5 turn game.

Its not easy to ensure, but it can be done.

[StaticVortex]

Adran - Sadly, we cannot activate two Chompy's in a turn.  In your example: summon Chompy turn 1, activate Chompy turn 1, then activate Chompy turn 2 and sacrifice him to bring Dreamer out.  Now, when you use SH attacks from the dreamer, it will not increment Dreamer's waking, because the Restless Dreams upgrade states that he only has the ability as long as LCB has not already activated this turn.

 

Smokey - It is always favorable to target an already activated model, because they won't be activating to strike back (unless obeyed, etc).  I wouldn't hold back too much on Chompy, as has been said, he's not real easy to dispatch.  Remember to keep a disposable nightmare nearby for dreamer to pass wounds off to if survivability is a primary concern....such as going against an assassinate scheme.

 

As for Teddy delivery: I like to give him the On Dreaming Wings upgrade and push him with Daydreams/Dreamer.  This gives one a flying teddy bear of doom that just wants to hug.  

[Adran]

Cheers, missed that on the card, ok, so you then either need a way to consistantly give the dreamer fast, or hope he gets attacked and gets to use his defense trigger (Or just don't get that many Chompy Activations).

Its not impossible, just very unlikely to get 2 Chompy activations a turn.

 

Edit

You know what, I've obviously not looked at him since the Beta testing. He no longer seems to have a Df trigger to increase waking.

Its highly unlikely to get 2 chompy activations a turn, as its now only possible if you can get the dreamer to summon 4 times in a turn.

[MasterDisaster]

 Just a shame he can't summon Teddy

 

The Widow Weaver can with her Handbag upgrade

[Smokey616]

To summon Chompy every turn you need to get to waking 4. There are several ways it could be done. He gets Waking by summoning models, and with his upgrades by shooting , and also from his defencive trigger.

The easiest way is to summon 3 alps/daydreams in a turn, and then shoot something with his Ranged expert. If you give the Dreamer fast then he could just summon 4 times. Shooting 4 times will also work, but as you say he has got to damage 4 times.

There is no way that I can think of to activate Chompy straight after the Dreamer, but I really wouldn't worry about it. He isn't that easy to kill. Its possible that he will die in the activation before he gets to go, but your oppownnt will need to use one of their best models to get that sort of damage in one activation. And you can just summon him again another go. Because everytime you are summonign lord Chompybits, every single time you get a brand new one regardless of what happened to the old one.

Its possible because of this to summon Chompy in turn 1. Using him in turn 1. Use him again in turn 2, then sacrifice him to bring the dreamer out, and summon Chompy again in turn 2 and activate the new chompy. Repeat this every turn (if you can) and you get 9 activations of Chompy in a 5 turn game.

Its not easy to ensure, but it can be done.

Wow!! So it is! That is pretty goddam awesome to be fair! Thank you!

I'm coming to terms with the fact that chompy probably will die a few times every game.. I suppose I'm just so used to trying to hit with him then get him away safely but I suppose the new summon thing just means he'll keep comin back again and again... Bouncing chompy

[Smokey616]

Adran - Sadly, we cannot activate two Chompy's in a turn. In your example: summon Chompy turn 1, activate Chompy turn 1, then activate Chompy turn 2 and sacrifice him to bring Dreamer out. Now, when you use SH attacks from the dreamer, it will not increment Dreamer's waking, because the Restless Dreams upgrade states that he only has the ability as long as LCB has not already activated this turn.

Smokey - It is always favorable to target an already activated model, because they won't be activating to strike back (unless obeyed, etc). I wouldn't hold back too much on Chompy, as has been said, he's not real easy to dispatch. Remember to keep a disposable nightmare nearby for dreamer to pass wounds off to if survivability is a primary concern....such as going against an assassinate scheme.

As for Teddy delivery: I like to give him the On Dreaming Wings upgrade and push him with Daydreams/Dreamer. This gives one a flying teddy bear of doom that just wants to hug.

I hear that! I think I prefer to go for unactivated models... Just to really take the jam out of the opponents doughnut.... In some cases I'd also argue that it's way more imperative to go for a model that hasn't activated, maybe to stop him scoring/attacking your models but then that is situational and if the model really needs to die