M2e Kaeris

[spooky_squirrel]

2 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

Hi guys,I've a question for you...

I play Kaeris only 3 times...each time with Miss Step like hard hitter,beacause I think that she requires an high hitter...

But what do you think of The Captain with Kaeris?

He do less damage than Miss Step,and he's less resistant.

But his Airbust ability is very good(the trigger that put the burning+2 is good against enemy and allies if you've Grab and drop)...

What do you think?

I would say it depends on the work you want the model to do (strategy and schemes) and your local meta. I'm sure that sounds like a cop-out kind of answer, but it's the most accurate one I have to work with.

If you need to get around the board to kill stuff, it's hard to do much better than Miss Step/Howard Langston with Nimble, Flurry, min damage 4, and a decapitation trigger. Good thing too, because he's eating up over a quarter of your hiring pool by himself.

If you need to have models in specific positions, The Captain is solid for this. He's also a Henchman, so he can bring two upgrades if you need them, and more importantly, he can soulstone for suits (mask trigger to jet away) or to prevent damage. In that regard he's more resilient than Miss Step. He's also immune to disengaging strikes, which can be crucial into some schemes (Accusation!, for instance, requires a (1) action to remove, but cannot be done while engaged. Walk away, clear name, if you have Patron's Blessing airburst something with that casting expert ability) and just nice to have in general.
The Captain is also good to drop into Constructs/Tyrants because of his relic hammer. The reach on it is also handy for controlling large areas of the board, both for schemes and for AP--for instance, he can engage most things in the game from outside their engagement range. They end up having to spend at least 1 AP walking if they want to engage him or try to walk away; they cannot charge or shoot, and in most cases cannot interact.

All that being said, the Captain can still beat things down with his hammer when he's not trying to control the battlefield. Hank's a better killer, but that's all he's got.

Either of them can run pretty independent of Kaeris, but The Captain helps put people back into Kaeris' G&D range before they activate or her healing bubble (other limited) before the end of the turn.

[bertmac]

He is ok but expensive. with patrons blessing he costs 12 when for 13stones you can hire angelica who can push your troops and johan for a relic hammer with potentail for + on attack flips around other m&su peeps.

 

I do like the captain and having the push resisted to also gain fast along with burning on a gunsmith can be good but there are other options.

[spooky_squirrel]

Just now, bertmac said:

He is ok but expensive. with patrons blessing he costs 12 when for 13stones you can hire angelica who can push your troops and johan for a relic hammer with potentail for + on attack flips around other m&su peeps.

I do like the captain and having the push resisted to also gain fast along with burning on a gunsmith can be good but there are other options.

Yeah, I was thinking about this too. There are a couple key differences: Angelica cannot push hostiles or friendly leaders, whereas The Captain can. The Captain can also drop cover markers as needed and spend soulstones.

The Captain wants to do too much all at once, but splitting his work between two models lets you get similar work done (trading limitations). Fully kitted, he costs as much as Hank, but does completely different work.

[hydranixx]

13 hours ago, Bengt said:

Grab & Drop is "target enemy model". Otherwise it would be an amazing way to move your own models around as it doesn't have a TN and relenting would mean 0 damage.

Foiled again! I should read the fine text more. Agreed, it did seem too good to be true.

3 hours ago, Fazza92 said:

Hi guys,I've a question for you...

I play Kaeris only 3 times...each time with Miss Step like hard hitter,beacause I think that she requires an high hitter...

But what do you think of The Captain with Kaeris?

He do less damage than Miss Step,and he's less resistant.

But his Airbust ability is very good(the trigger that put the burning+2 is good against enemy and allies if you've Grab and drop)...

What do you think?

He's not a true beater model. Too much of his ss cost is spent on utility and positioning, which is each really good for support, but is wasted text when you're primarily interested in using him to punch things. He's almost always going to buy Patron's Blessing, but at that point 9 wounds for a 12ss model sucks.

He does do a lot for Kaeris though. If you own him already, try him out to see how you find him. But don't make him your only source of damage, and perhaps don't spend all his AP on his Relic Hammer.

[Fazza92]

Thank you all guys,I'm going to try it next time.

[Da Git]

Hey all,

A real quick question,

What minions do you find yourselves reaching for with a fair amount of regularity when you get Kaeris out?  With things like Carlos/Hank/Joss/Johana/etc, I find I have plenty of great beaters, Angelica provides plenty of support/pushes and Firestarter/Cassie/Mech Rider/(Wings of Fire)/(Practised Production) runs flanking/schemes so by the time I get to Minions, I'm out of Soulstones.

Are Fire Gamin worthwhile?  They seem ok for 4ss with Ml/Sh5 both handing out Burning.  What about Gunsmiths? They look very solid, but are also quite pricey at 7ss.  Anything out of theme?

The list I cureently playing with doesn't have any minions at all, just the Eternal Flame as a Peon!

[bertmac]

Depends on the strats and schemes for me. Gunsmiths, acolytes, hoarcats, the effigy, rail workers are great with her healing, union miners have had an upgrade and may be getting better again. Willie works with her and fire gamin are useful enough at 4ss, wind gamin are quite good although potentially going to get Cuddled as they are  a little too good.

[retnab]

Envy and Large Arachnids, for sure.  G&D Kaeris gets so many aggressively placed Scheme Markers on the board those models nearly always have some nearby to fuel their abilities.  I'm liking Carlos so far too, and I've recently come to love using the Malifaux Child specifically to get off a double Accelerant to force the opponent to take 4 damage or Paralyzed in large numbers (and of course, Child using Flaming Halo to set up G&D).  I have a love for the Rail Golem which I know isn't shared by everyone.  It takes some work to get rolling, and in G&D you REALLY don't want it to be within 6" of Kaeris which can make positioning awkward at times, but min 5 damage is beautiful when it works.  Fire Gamin are good for cheap activations, ranged attacks, and getting themselves blown up, just have to buy them with the expectation of getting them killed.

 

Edit: didn't read Minions specifically, for Kaeris my usual Minions are: Fire Gamin (cheap activations), Gunsmiths (less cheap shooting), Large Arachnids (see above), and Union Miners (mostly for Modified Welder, False Claim is less useful with G&D).

[JoeJones]

I tend to run Soulstone Miners with Kaeris. Their ability to unbury as needed places them where I need them for scheme running, anti-scheming, or targeted removal of inconvenient models. The ability to add soulstones to your pool doesn't hurt, either. 

[admiralvorkraft]

Union Miners are also solid budget beaters in an M&SU themed crew, though not as good as Railworkers at the same price point.

[Mxbedlam]

Ok so after playing 25 games with Kaeris I've come to the assumption that she is absolutely the worst designed master maybe in the game. 

So 3  things that makes Kaeris so hard to take seriously:

1) Kaeris is the most anti synergistic model in the game. Often she is your primary source of getting Burning on models to buff the rest of your crew, so you want her to go first. HOWEVER you don't want her to go first because you need her to be in range of all your other models so that they can gain flying at the beginning of the turn. Likewise, the Emissary has to go first to do her double (0) action burn all the models and draw cards. 3 cards. so 2 (0) actions for 3 cards. MEH. And if you do that you cannot grab and drop, her signature action, AND if you do it on enemy models you steal burning for buffing her crew and damage on those models. Double MEH.  

2) Kaeris doesn't actually do a whole lot, especially for a master. Kaeris either drops burning on a whole lot of things, or scheme runs or spends 2 AP to do a mostly decent attack on an enemy. Her signature move, Grab and Drop, means that you can't use her other upgrade, which is honestly one i started to like better and better as I played.  Sure, there are times she can find a model with burning already and light it up, but often as not she's just half heartedly supporting her crew. 

3) Burning is not damage and most models that do damage based on a model to be burning are not as inherently good as models that don't rely on it. IE: Gunsmiths aren't as good as December Acolytes. 

Now with all that out of the way, positives I have found with her.

1) The play style she's trying to create is appealing. I love the idea of a highly mobile support master zipping around the field.

2) Carlos is amazing with her if you use her Purifying Fire limited instead of Grab and Drop. Her ability to drop pillars along with his, and the eternal flame to move them around can become frustrating to the opponent. (I highly recommend taking Sieze the Day if this is your plan with her). 

3) Everyone under estimates how annoying Fire Gamin can be When mech rider tosses them into a pile of models. and then they get blown up. 

4) She's still better than Mah Tucket

I don't think Kaeris is unusuable by any means and I had several fun games out of the 25 but ultimately I just wanted her to do more and almost every game I felt that another master could do it with only half the set up that Kaeris requires to get work done.  In the end I mostly abandoned the full fire set up to go with just a crew that did the things my other crews did. 

My favorite Kaeris crew was:

Kaeris (Purifying Flames, Sieze the Day, Reservoir)

Eternal Flame

Carlos (Stunt Double, Imbued Energies)

Firestarter (Energies)

Mech Rider (energies)

December Acolyte

Arcane Effigy

 

My total record with her was 6/15/4  w/l/t 

 

[katadder]

depends what you want. if you are used to activating your master late then sure, but yes she wants to go early, at least on turn 1. I like having blinding flame, target my 2 gunsmiths for 3" push then fly kaeris forwards. the gunsmiths throw in low rams for fast and gain burning then can fly upto 15" and drop a marker, good for early scheme shenanigans.

gunsmiths targeting things kaeris has set on fire can also be better than december acolytes if the target is in cover. and remember that ++ is to all duels with targets on fire, so this is horror, defensive etc etc so really useful.

I currently run joss with her but after seeing carlos in action I may have found a replacement.

current crew that does me well most of the time:

Kaeris - grab and drop, blinding flame

Joss - imbued energies, bleeding edge tech (sometimes dropped for kaeris to get something else)

Johan - imbued energies

Willie

2x gunsmiths

2x firegamin

alot of this crew is as good ranged as it is in melee so can threaten quite far away or take the fight to the enemy. also has 4 hard to kill models and explodey fire gamin 

[Mxbedlam]

The problem with gunsmiths is that it requires so many things to make them as good as an acolyte. Burning which stops the other, better effect imo. Rams from your hand to give them fast and if you dont have a low ram you have to rely on flipping one. Once again a model that requires so much work to do its job.

[bertmac]

I think gunsmiths have their place. They may not be the straight up killers that acolytes are but they are better in melee have access to fast and can give burning to enemies with their defensive trigger. Fast gives them a better effective range and more flexibility and hard to kill works well with kaeris' healing.

If you have a bad record with Kaeris how is your record with other masters? She is not top tier but if she suits your style of play you should have a better record than 6 wins from 25.

[Mxbedlam]

So far I've done the 25 challenge with Marcus, Ramos and Colette.  Came out 16/7/2 with Marcus.  15/9/1 with Colette (pre cuddle) and 13/9/3 with Ramos. So Kaeris was definitely the lowest win ratio by far and to be fair MOST of my Kaeris losses were within 2-3 points but I just couldn't get all the way with her. 

[Starrius]

Having recently started playing Kaeris I have been enjoying her.

 

One of my current go to crews is

 

Kaeris (purifying flames, seize the day)

The Captain (patrons blessing)

Firestarter (imbued energies) or casandra (practices production)

Etrenal flame

December acolyte

Gunsmith

Union miner

Arcane effigy

 

The captain has proven for my style of play to be really useful. Pushing my own models and as a way to give my gunsmiths fast when needed. And for ffm I have been using him to push models through pyre markers for the extra hazardous damage to get the kills plus the ram trigger for burning has been very useful. While more expensive than Angelica I find his ability to target enemies invaluabe.

Multiple options for burning and the ability to use it as healing when needed.

[Bengt]

I really don't see how you can say Kaeris is "anti-synergistic", if anything she "over-synergistic" - everything revolves around combining her effects. And it is, IMO, this over reliance on synergy makes her tricky to play effectively. I think it help a lot to have other models set things on fire and go mid to late with Kaeris, Union Miners are good for this and they have some other uses after the buff. Finishing things with burning can also be quite useful in this Frame For Murder world we currently live in...

[admiralvorkraft]

I've gotta say I really only use Grab and Drop Kaeris, and that into marker heavy pools. She just gets markers down incredibly efficiently.

Grab and Drop is also pretty useful for isolating models or getting them near scheme markers (for, say, Dig Their Graves) and Blinding Flame makes her a decent control piece.

I agree that she's not the best that Arcanists have on offer, but I only play the M&SU side of the faction so she is probably my best schemer.

[Starrius]

45 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I've gotta say I really only use Grab and Drop Kaeris, and that into marker heavy pools. She just gets markers down incredibly efficiently.

Grab and Drop is also pretty useful for isolating models or getting them near scheme markers (for, say, Dig Their Graves) and Blinding Flame makes her a decent control piece.

I agree that she's not the best that Arcanists have on offer, but I only play the M&SU side of the faction so she is probably my best schemer.

I went the other way I find purifying flames suits me better. For scheme running have cassandra with practiced production and union miners with their ability to drop 2 scheme markers within 3 of it to be useful too

[bertmac]

19 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

So far I've done the 25 challenge with Marcus, Ramos and Colette.  Came out 16/7/2 with Marcus.  15/9/1 with Colette (pre cuddle) and 13/9/3 with Ramos. So Kaeris was definitely the lowest win ratio by far and to be fair MOST of my Kaeris losses were within 2-3 points but I just couldn't get all the way with her. 

I think it must just be a playstyle issue for you.

I love her and even in tournaments my record last year was something like played 16 won 13.

I like her versatility she gets around a lot of defences like df7 lilith and riders df triggers. Can use burning to get around armour too if your opponent doesn't bring condition removal.

She schemes well by herself and Arcanists are good in that our enforcers can get the killing done whilst she goes off kills scheme runners and drops markers or gets wherever she needs to be!

 

[spooky_squirrel]

14 hours ago, Bengt said:

I really don't see how you can say Kaeris is "anti-synergistic", if anything she "over-synergistic" - everything revolves around combining her effects. And it is, IMO, this over reliance on synergy makes her tricky to play effectively. I think it help a lot to have other models set things on fire and go mid to late with Kaeris, Union Miners are good for this and they have some other uses after the buff. Finishing things with burning can also be quite useful in this Frame For Murder world we currently live in...

I've used the Rail Golem for this. Turn 1 boiler to set things around him on fire, and he wanders into position, then everything else gets to fly up and drop markers. It's really handy for things like Set Up and Detonate the Charges, or if you're planning on using those markers for something else, like Dig Their Graves or feeding the Large Steam Arachnid's (0). Letting things die to burning is a good idea when FFM is in the pool. A really good idea.

[Dereikt]

Thoughts on Shastar Vidaya Guard with Kaeris? I've played them in a couple of games and found that the ability to draw a card when you cheat a defence duel adds a useful bit of efficiency to Kaeris' card draw technique, or a handy bonus if I was setting them on fire for scheme markers/healing.

At the same time, they seemed to fill an important niche in a Kaeris crew, acting as a solid damage dealer without requiring the heavy SS cost of a Howard or upgraded henchman. The zero action was also a constant extra bit of utility-it may only be a 2" push, but when it's always just there each turn it adds up.

Any other thoughts or experiences with them? 

[bertmac]

Not used them yet but htk models can take quite a bit of killing with all the healing kaeris can pump out!

[Mxbedlam]

you can load them up with Well Rehearsed too and keep other living models (like Kaeris) alive

[spooky_squirrel]

23 hours ago, Dereikt said:

Thoughts on Shastar Vidaya Guard with Kaeris? I've played them in a couple of games and found that the ability to draw a card when you cheat a defence duel adds a useful bit of efficiency to Kaeris' card draw technique, or a handy bonus if I was setting them on fire for scheme markers/healing.

At the same time, they seemed to fill an important niche in a Kaeris crew, acting as a solid damage dealer without requiring the heavy SS cost of a Howard or upgraded henchman. The zero action was also a constant extra bit of utility-it may only be a 2" push, but when it's always just there each turn it adds up.

Any other thoughts or experiences with them? 

I have been using them outside of Kaeris and finding that they are very useful for a number of things.

1. The (0) to push friendlies around is really useful when I want to open up a charge lane or get a shooter into a position to open up (i.e. Envy).
2. Pitching a card for focus is good, as it can make that first attack on the charge really hurt.
3. I've been using one as a Bleeding Edge Tech carrier to support minion constructs (like Rail Workers under Mei Feng), but I can see use for some of the other upgrades instead. In this support role, he's a beater standing by until something comes in to engage the front line. Once it is time for him to go to work, his charge, reach, and focus-for-a-card really helps get him into the thick of things.
4. Being able to ignore damage reduction or hand out slow (rams or crows) gives my opponents a choice of headaches right off the bat. I'm also a fan of getting a baked-in-positive on the damage flip, especially on the focused attack (and I know where the Black Joker is; in hand or in discard). The only trigger that I tend to greet with "eh? okay.." is the free secondary attack (1/2/2, trigger to take again), but I'm not typically facing a small horde of one wound models.
5. With Well Rehearsed (as @Mrbedlam mentions), they also serve as a tough bodyguard element. Combined with the G&D shenanigans, they can fly up 10 inches (or flying charge something 8" away), push someone else 2, drop a scheme marker as part of the G&D play, then push another 2. This would not be to help Kaeris so much, as the Shastar Vidiya Guard can end up a good 15-16 inches away from her after everything is said and done, but it can put him in position to support someone else, or even get a second HTK-like effect, forcing opponents to put even more AP into killing him. Alternatively, you play cagey: push things that need pushing and stay near things that are vulnerable, then charge into threats that get too close to their principle.

Their stat line is respectable and when their damage spikes, they hit really hard. I think to get the most bang for your stones on them you have to think about playing them along the same lines that Ten Thunders players (especially Shenlong) players need to think: focus and auras to put them on positives; put them where they create the most problems for your opponent.

Which brings up the same thing you mention here: if you run the other limited upgrade, setting these guys on fire and granting them a form of regeneration will keep them tied up in combat longer than your opponent will like.