M2e Kaeris

[Mxbedlam]

So I'm looking at Kaeris as my next conquest in the Arcanist faction. She does offer a versatility and a sort of sideways view of playing that I really like, mainly cause it means your opponent will have a harder time figuring her out as well.

To me the auto take really seems to be the Emissary. Instinctual is amazing on Marcus and it feels like it would be a godsend for Kaeris. So that's where I'm going to start. After that, Rob's suggestion of spiders seems strong. (also I played vs his list at NOVA and really liked it) I think Malifaux child just provides more than Flame but I don't want to discount it right out of hand so I'll juggle the two of them until I make my decision.

I really like the captain, but I hate bringing multiple 10SS+ models so I don't know if he'll make it into the list. Sadly his SS cost has kept me from playing him several times. Maybe I just need to get over it and try him. I really like fire gamin, for 4ss they seem so solid.

I also love the Firestarter, having used him to good effect in Colette before as a scheme runner/harasser that is crazy cheap.

So to start I'm thinking of this list:

Kaeris (G&D, Resevoir, Sieze)

Malifaux Child

Firestarter (Energies)

Carlos (PP)

2 Large Arachnid

Arcane Emissary (Flaming Conflux)

 

I'll report back on how it does.

[spooky_squirrel]

I'm curious how it will do. My last run of Kaeris involved:

Kaeris

Eternal Flame

Emissary

Joss

Gunsmith

Large Arachnid

Large Arachnid

 

I had selected the Emissary as the Framed For Murder target. Strategy was Extraction. Opponent was Ten Thunders Misaki. My second scheme was Show of Force (all Joss)

My first turn featured Kaeris flaring, moving up to set a sniper on fire, then moving back into the middle of the burning bunch. Emissary and Large Arachnids beelined to the center. Joss stayed right behind the Emissary to be the follow up to whatever went into the Emissary. Gunsmith moved into position to shoot down the burning sniper in the next turn.

Second turn featured Misaki killing the Emissary (I cheated low on defense to give her as much room as possible to succeed) and following through into Joss, Large Arachnids eating their own G&D scheme markers and walking up to Misaki to start chewing. Joss killed Misaki. Kaeris targeted the gunsmith who flipped rams for fast and gained burning. Gunsmith shot and killed the first sniper with two shots, used fast AP to walk towards second sniper. Eternal Flame and Joss's Bleeding Edge Tech kept the Large Arachnids from dying. Show of Force started clocking in.

Third turn saw no TT near the Extraction objective. Large Arachnids started moving to eat Convict Labor scheme markers being dropped by the TT scheme runners. The second sniper was my opponent's FFM pick, which only netted him 2VP (shot to pieces by the gunsmith). Continued Show of Force advantage while Gunsmith and Joss babysat the strategy and escorted it back towards Kaeris and the Eternal Flame.

 

In the after action review, we talked about FFM targets and why I made sure it was my gunsmith that shot down the forward deployed snipers and what exactly a "distraction carnifex" is (too dangerous to ignore, too tough to swat away). He didn't know about the plethora of 1SS upgrades that TT can put on enforcers and henchmen to guard against (or even win outright) Show of Force. I told him that I had been counting on Joss and the Large Arachnids killing anything with upgrades that came near, and noted that after Misaki died he had been slow to put anything into the middle. I hadn't thought of it at the time, but it occurred to me later that Convict Labor doesn't pair well with Extraction. The scheme requires some spreading out, and the strategy calls for being near the objective.

[Mxbedlam]

Meh with arcanists, it doesn't matter to much. We can always cheat and use PP if we need to. I have no problem taking both show of force and Convict labor with Cassandra and Joss with 3 upgrades between them. Convict labor is actually I'd argue easier for us when extraction is on the board because your opponent will want to keep their models in the middle and you don't always have to. a 3SS raptor can get work done

[hydranixx]

On 9/30/2016 at 3:16 PM, Mrbedlam said:

I think Malifaux child just provides more than Flame but I don't want to discount it right out of hand so I'll juggle the two of them until I make my decision.

I also dislike discounting models, and I want to believe the Eternal Flame is a viable option. I mean, Wk6 + Armour 3 + 40mm base on a 2ss model is nice...

But to be honest, its stats and abilities are not enough since none of its actions are consistently worth taking.

I hear some people get some value from Eternal Flame with Purifying Flame on Kaeris but with Grab and Drop (which I play 90% of the time with Kaeris), Malifaux Child is just so much better.

The Malifaux Child actively contributes to the Burning engine, by giving up to 2 models Burning per activation (and having 1 AP free to walk or heal)... as opposed to the Eternal Flame which requires a target to already have Burning on it to do anything i.e it needs your Burning engine to come from more expensive models or Kaeris' activation itself.

If Eternal Flame had a 0 action or an ability to put Burning on itself, it would become much more attractive as an option to drop markers or auto heal itself.

On 9/30/2016 at 3:16 PM, Mrbedlam said:

I really like fire gamin, for 4ss they seem so solid.

Yeah, Fire Gamin are awesome. They're made of glass, but their damage is really high for their price. There's not many 4ss models that have access to Blasts, let alone 4 separate ways to add Burning to enemy models.

I've found them most useful against Ressers. Their attacks become surprisingly accurate since undead & spirits have bad stats, and the many sources of free Burning are particularly nasty against Incorporeal and Hard to Kill. 

Their Blasts are also a godsend if you find yourself up against walls of chaff models; their stats are usually terrible and your opponent will rarely want to cheat for them. You should be able to win the duel by 6+ and secure the Blast. If you happen to get a Tome in the duel, you also apply Burning to everyone caught under the Blast too, which is fun for clearing out all the Seishin hiding next to Kirai and hurting her at the same time.

[Adran]

i think you'll find the addition of Carlos will make people re-evaluate the Kaeris load, and the value of the eternal flame. He is a ready source of Pyre markers and he benefits a lot from purifying flame. (and is probably less happy with Grab and drop). 

Its not going to be a case of you will always take Child with Grab and drop, and always want Carlos with Purifying flame and Eternal flame, but I expect to see those as common splits.

 

 

[bertmac]

I always preferred purifying fire anyway.

[iEhix]

Hi, I bought ad a first Arcanist starter box Kaeris, can someone recommend me useful models to improve the crew? I only have gunsmith at the moment... What do you think about Arcane Emissary and Rail Golem? Who is the best for Kaeris?

[Sordid Strumpet]

The Emissary is great because its upgrade lets Kaeris take two 0 actions (so she flare to put burning on three people near her, then use truth in flame to draw three cards). The Gunsmiths are fantastic with Kaeris, but you have to keep in mind they're not raw damage dealers - they're really good for getting through low wound high armour models, incorporeal (EDIT - no, not incorporeal ) stuff or getting through hard to kill models that are on two or three wounds in one AP as well as finishing off masters and henchmen on low wounds that could otherwise use soul stones to prevent that damage.

The Rail Golem in my opinion is thoroughly eclipsed by the Emissary because it's just a much better tool box.

Kaeris is a support master, so she really needs hitting power. I'd recommend getting Ramos' box just for Howard Langston or Joss (Kaeris can make them fly or heal them). Coryphee are also fantastic with Kaeris as she can turn them into extremly fast, extremely hitty scheme runners.

Having a few pushes for repositioning stuff is great, so I'd recommend Angelica. She can also carry Practised Production to make scheme running even easier than it already is with Kaeris. The arcane effigy is also a worthwhile purchase as it can put even more burning on people (which either means extra damage, or AP wasted by models putting themselves out, both of which are good for you), remove conditions, is hard to kill with high defense and fairly quick on its feet so it serves as a quick somewhat difficult to kill scheme runner or just another activation.

Lastly, Johan (an outcast M&SU mercenary) is fantastic value for an arcanist crew as he provides further hitting power, a fantastic heal and condition removal.

I'd also recommend the Malifaux Child which used to be a go-to for setting things on fire without using Kaeris' AP but nowadays that is rather neatly solved by the Emissary. Still, if you don't want to rely only on the Emissary it's a great purchase and her own totem is kind of meh unless you take a large number of constructs.
 

[Bengt]

3 hours ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Gunsmiths are fantastic with Kaeris, but you have to keep in mind they're not raw damage dealers - they're really good for getting through low wound high armour models, incorporeal stuff

While Gunsmiths can get around a fair amount of defences, Incorporeal isn't one of them.

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, Bengt said:

While Gunsmiths can get around a fair amount of defences, Incorporeal isn't one of them.

For getting around Incorporeal, please enlist the aid of one of our Oxfordian Mages. They've got student loans to pay off, so are willing to work. They're even known to put in extra effort for known M&SU leaders and lieutenants like Kaeris, The Firestarter, or Joss. As an added bonus, they can help keep our stalwart heroes like Joss and The Firestarter from being paralyzed, help them recover faster, or even give them additional insight into dealing with the opposing leader.

Additionally, The Firestarter, Cassandra, Kudra, and the Arcane Emissary can provide some ways to tear into things that lack physical forms.

 

There are of course others, but the key thing is they need damage sources that are not Ml or Sh. The models I've mentioned as being useful all have Ca actions that can do some serious damage or have interesting side effects, like setting the model on fire. Fire condition damage doesn't care if you're incorporeal. It's nowhere near an exhaustive list, but all the models listed (except the Emissary) are either the same base cost as a Gunsmith or within 1-2 stones (again, base cost) and can do more work than shoot down targets that Kaeris (or Malifaux Child) paint with fire. Some of them may already be in the list (The Firestarter or Emissary, for instance) simply because they play well with Kaeris. You could potentially also try to catch incorporeal models in the death effects of Ice, Fire, and Poison Gamin, but that relies on your opponent being awfully close to them when they die.

This lets you use the Gunsmiths for what they're best used on: armored enemies or enemies that like to prevent with soul stones. If you can get a decent differential (or are focused or under an effect like focus) the other two triggered effects can be situationally good, if you need one shot that's going to be cheating in for a Severe 6 or trying for a blast marker to scrape that last wound or two off of a nearby model.

[Mxbedlam]

My Marcus crew test is halfway over, but I'm going to go ahead and start working on Kaeris this coming week. Battle Reports inc!

[Mxbedlam]

So forgot to print out Carlos' card before I went to the LGS. However my first Kaeris game went well. Fought Nico and won 10-7 in Headhunter Flank Deploy. Scored full points on Hunting party and Leave Your Mark.

My list was 

Kaeris (Purifying Flames, Seize the Day, Arcane Resevoir)

Firestarter (Warding Runes)

3 Mages (Temp Shielding and the Runes)

Arcane Emmisary (Flaming Conflux)

Gunsmith

Fire Gamin

 

My opponent brought:

Nico (not sure which upgrades, I know Evil laugh)

Mortimer

Necro punk

Killjoy

Night Terror

Vulture

Izamu

Flaming Pillars stopped Killjoy cold for the whole game, and the list was much more aggresive than I thought it would be. Things went down in flames of glory. I lost only the gunsmith at the end of the game.

EDIT: that being said, Purifying Kaeris has some timing problems with the Emmisary. I needed her to go first every turn to keep Killjoy pinned by pillars, but I then lost the instinctual potential from the Emmisary. Also, my list didn't benefit from the minion bonus either. His main job became primary beatstick/ eating corpse markers. 

[Hargrave]

I've had Kaeris forever now, and am finally getting around to assembling her now that I've tried Ressers and Outcasts. Are there any "must have" first buys for her?

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.

[Sordid Strumpet]

Kaeris is a support master, so she desperately needs hitting power. Joss, Langston and Coryphee all fit the bill quite well. Gun Smiths are great additions to her crew, and Carlos Vasquez when he comes out. I also really like the Malifaux Child as her totem. The Emissary upgrade allows her to take two of her 0-actions per turn which she enjoys. The Emissary also fits the beater role quite well.

[Jordon]

I don't know if she really has any "must haves". She has a lot of great inclusions depending on how your running her but if I was forced to only pick one model to go with Kaeris it would probably have to be the emissary. Giving Kaeris two (0) actions really unlocks her true potential in my opinion. On it's own it's also a pretty awesome model who can greatly benefit from either healing or flight. Being Ht3 and a 10" charge and flight means you can basically go after any model you wish which with his charge attack can really mess up some key support models (just be sure to use his charge action second).

I haven't done this yet but i'm looking forward to the day when the emissary charges in and pushes a model 6" and Kaeris follows up with grab and drop to push them another 6ish inches. If they manage to survive they'll be quite a way downstream from where they started.

[Hargrave]

Thanks. Looks like I'll pick up Gunsmiths, Emissary and the child once I have money. Might try and nab Carlos during the Black Friday sale.

Out of curiosity, why is it that she destroys riders? Just because burning ignores their tomes?

[spooky_squirrel]

2 minutes ago, Hargrave said:

Out of curiosity, why is it that she destroys riders? Just because burning ignores their tomes?

Yes. Sort of.

Each of the four riders are associated with a suit, and they reduce damage based off of how many of those suits are in the rider's Df duel total.

Poison, burning, many  abilities, every  effect, and attacks against other stats like Ht, Wk, and Wp cannot be reduced by this, because they all bypass it.
Kaeris (and Firestarter) aren't doing damage at all. Kaeris just needs to tie, and the rider will be burning. Then you follow up with things that enhance the burning (hi there, Mr. Firestarter).

 

Poison builds can do the same (certain masters).

[Bengt]

Kaeris' second attack, Immolate, targets Wp. Riders have Stubborn, giving  to attacks targeting Wp, meaning that just targeting Wp is usually not a very good idea. But if you have put burning on them (either with Flaming Halo or another model altogether), Immolate gets  to duel and damage canceling out Stubborn. 2/3/5 with  to damage lets you put 10 Wds in 2 AP if you are willing to spend a bunch of cards on it, or in 3 AP with slightly less cards.

Just putting on Burning means that the Rider will still get to activate and your opponent can remove some of the burning before the end of the turn. Remember that any model can lower burning by 1 by taking an Interact action (I think it's within 1", but don't have the book at hand). 

[spooky_squirrel]

9 hours ago, Bengt said:

Just putting on Burning means that the Rider will still get to activate and your opponent can remove some of the burning before the end of the turn. Remember that any model can lower burning by 1 by taking an Interact action (I think it's within 1", but don't have the book at hand). 

Absolutely. It's also common practice for people that worry about conditions to bring things that remove conditions. That's why I put the Arcane Effigy in the Ramos list I ran at a tournament. Every faction has the potential to hand out conditions, and every faction has access to something that lets them remove/ignore conditions.

The neat thing about the Mechanical Rider being targeted (the other riders I have not seen much of) is that she's often being used to run schemes and might be a little far removed from help. The constructs she summons cannot Interact with her to put the fire out the turn they arrive, so she will either need to spend an AP for each Burning +1 she wants to remove, or run back towards other models that can put her out. This can potentially interfere with plans, depending on what the Rider's player was hoping to do with her.

At the end of the day though, it's about getting as much work towards the schemes and strat as you can with every AP. If A Quick Murder is in the scheme pool and your opponent plays a Rider, chances are pretty good that you'll need to kill the rider to get those points. My experience fielding the Rider (where the Rider dies) has the Rider either dying fast and early to focused attacks, or dying as a result of conditions applied later in the game. Otherwise, she's trying to get me as many points as she can.

[Mxbedlam]

I was surprised how quickly the burning damage adds up when I played her the other day. Between the 3 mages, Kaeris, Emmisary and the gunsmith, the damage was a lot higher than I'd anticipated. I definitely think that Kaeris might need a bit more choose for situation than a lot of other masters, being that she is such an unusual toolbox. Just her two limited upgrades change almost everything that she does.  Grab and Drop is honestly best for giving models flying and dropping scheme markers, meaning I wanna run large arachnids. If I bring Purifying Flame then I wanna run Carlos and the eternal flame. 

[Mxbedlam]

So I found another good use for Wings of Flame. Envy loves having all those scheme markers hanging around.

Secondly, has anyone had any luck with the Born of Flame upgrade that triggers to summon Gamin?

[spooky_squirrel]

3 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

So I found another good use for Wings of Flame. Envy loves having all those scheme markers hanging around.

Secondly, has anyone had any luck with the Born of Flame upgrade that triggers to summon Gamin?

When I've fielded Kaeris, she usually isn't getting the kills, so the requirements of the target being burning, Kaeris having the right suit, and the target dying seems a little much. I realize with how excited I get at the idea of a master like Mei Feng charging off of a Mechanized Porkchop at something near the Emissary, that it sounds odd for me to say "it's too complex to count on". I typically run Kaeris in a support capacity with some hard hitters.

Admittedly, I'm putting Joss, the Emissary, a Gunsmith, and a pair of Large Steam Arachnids on the table with her under Grab and Drop, so I'm setting myself up for her not doing the heavy lifting herself (39 stones in models right there, without upgrades on them yet, her totem can be used to repair Joss and the spiders, and BET on Joss keeps the spiders alive longer and providing jamming tech for hurting enemy casters, which gets me closer to the complete list). This is what I've successfully run into strategies like Extraction because of the amount of work the LSA, Emissary, and Joss get done in terms of killing things in the center.

For a stone more than the Gunsmiths, Envy seems like he can get a lot done, and having silly things like G&D flight/scheme drop and Well Rehearsed (2 stones more with that) can get him into a shooting position quickly for some board control. This ends up looking like 42 stones in models, 2 stones in non-master upgrades, and 3-4 stones in master upgrades, leaving her with a 6-7 cache. With a construct-oriented front line, Joss' Open Current upgrade is also a valuable item for its (0) to burn your opponent's cards and potentially reduce their Df for the scrappy spiders to dive into or Envy to score blasts off of, reducing the cache to 5-6 stones.

 

...

Of course, now that I'm reminding myself how Kaeris supports a crew (hire beaters, they incidentally become schemers from G&D), I'm wondering why I didn't run her at the last tournament I was in, especially since I have Carlos assembled and was already thinking it would be amusing to run Envy in all three rounds.

[Mxbedlam]

I just can't make the Emissary work with her.  All the order of operations is wrong because you want her to go first and him to go later, but that doesn't get you instinctual. 

[spooky_squirrel]

7 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

I just can't make the Emissary work with her.  All the order of operations is wrong because you want her to go first and him to go later, but that doesn't get you instinctual. 

I've run into this, and it prompts me to not rely on instinctual as much. Flying 10" charge is impressive, and self-harming minions to hand out burning is slick. Both of her (0) actions on the same turn would be phenomenal, but if I'm doing that, it's in a G&D list where she's going in the middle of the turn after other models have activated and applied pressure to an area that she's going to drop in to.

[Fazza92]

Hello guys,It's arrived just now my Kaeris fluo crew with Miss step!!

I build it,and I've a question,or two:

eternal flame has very good stats,for 2 SS,but are it used ?I no see trick with Kaeris and it's crew (unless the pyre marker upgrade for Kaeris)...

Same question for the fire starter...is he good only in scheme that need scheme markers(imbued energies+suffers damage at start of it's activation)..?