M2e Kaeris

[Myyrä]

I practically always take a totem and I would use Eternal Flame all the time if Malifaux Child didn't exist.

[mythicFOX]

@Spike0738 - The Eternal Flame can heal the Rail Golem.

 

I think the EF is a genuine choice for the Kaeris player.  The construct healing is effective and easy to achieve. A 2ss activation is always good news, especially given our faction's love of big models, and it will be worth it's points even if it doesn't achieve much more than throwing out a couple of heals and help with activation control.

Now granted it's not as a strong a choice in a lot of situations as the Malifaux Child will be, but I do think there's a genuine choice to be made between them when list building.

 

[Breng77]

2 hours ago, Spike0738 said:

Hmm, Idk... I use totems often enough. Especially with Ironsides, Ramos and Rasputina. I also find Ophelia's Young Lacroix and Som'er's Skeeters to be very useful. Certainly, I don't always do it, but I think EF is the only one that I actively avoid using at all costs. 

In his list above, Gunsmiths and Rail Workers wont benefit from Eternal Flame at all, and he's using G&D so the Rail Golem can't even heal with the totem.

Everyone is different, I've tried Ramos' totem and found it lacking for how I play, I summon doves  with Colette, and will run a Jackelope at times with Marcus and sometimes malifaux child with Kaeris, but as you said unless you have a specific plan for them most are not very good and at 3 stones or higher for most I can usually find a better option.

[Spike0738]

49 minutes ago, mythicFOX said:

@Spike0738 - The Eternal Flame can heal the Rail Golem.

 

I think the EF is a genuine choice for the Kaeris player.  The construct healing is effective and easy to achieve. A 2ss activation is always good news, especially given our faction's love of big models, and it will be worth it's points even if it doesn't achieve much more than throwing out a couple of heals and help with activation control.

Now granted it's not as a strong a choice in a lot of situations as the Malifaux Child will be, but I do think there's a genuine choice to be made between them when list building.

 

As I've stated before, I understand the benefits of it. I simply don't feel that it works effectively enough for me. I feel that I have to plan an entire list around the damn totem, or else the enemy is going to use it against me when it comes to the EF. I've never been able to keep up with Kaeris or Firestarter. 

Can you imagine if you get your flaming up on Rail Golem, and you get pushed or pulled into the Eternal Flame that makes all models lose immunity to burning? All of a sudden that 1/2/3 heal flip isn't worth it and your own model became your worst enemy. The potential negatives are too much for me to say it's a "good" 2ss activation. I would rather have IE on another model or something, and not have the potential negatives on the board. 

Just my personal opinion. I'm glad people have had success with it. Any Arcanist success is a good thing. 

[bertmac]

The rail golem doesn't have immunity to burning to lose though?

[Bengt]

Yeah, Immunity to a Condition is a specific game term (defined in the box on page 39). An Ability that says you do not take damage from a Condition (e.g. Rail Golem, Fire Gamin) is not the same thing as Immunity.

[retnab]

On ‎26‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 8:34 AM, bertmac said:

Probably ok turn 1 but turn 2 onwards you really want the rail golem to have burning and be able to use locomotion.

I ended up playing a game last night and yeah after that I agree with you.  Turn one it was nice (Protect Territory was one of the schemes so it let Firestarter get to work on that early too) but turn two I wanted my Rail Golem to start hitting things so he kept his Burning for himself.

As far as my list goes, I don't think I like the Oxfordian Mages with Kaeris.  They were always in the list as Gunsmiths-aren't-out-yet filler, but I think next game I'll swap them for December Acolytes (the only other elite ranged minions I have).  The game was against Ironsides so there was a ton of Counterspell which probably biases it (can't burn or slow her with the enemy Oxford Mages alive so I ended up just pushing her around a bit), but I wasn't feeling like range 10 was much help with the rest of the army dedicated to melee.  I'm thinking something more like:

Kaeris (Arcane Reservoir, Blinding Flame, Grab and Drop)

Eternal Flame

Firestarter (Imbued Energies)

Rail Golem

2x December Acolytes

2x Rail Workers

Think that would be a bit better?  My game was against Ironsides so I struggled to set much of anything on fire for most of it, but I feel in most other situations I should be able to get that synergy going much better.

[Sordid Strumpet]

I would not base a whole lot of conclusions on a game VS Ironsides. She's notoriously difficult to pull condition-based tricks on.

I think gun smiths are absolutely fantastic when you can set their targets on fire.  the plus flips mean they hardly ever drain cards out of your hand to function well. I would also take the Malifaux Child over eternal flame every time.

[retnab]

That's a good point, the list was Ironsides and Joss (both with Warding Runes), with Captain and 3 Oxfordian Mages mostly hiding in the back so it took a lot of effort (and put Kaeris and Firestarter in danger) to set anything on Fire that game.

From what I've read up I definitely plan on swapping Eternal Flame for Malifaux Child (EF hasn't done much of anything in any game I've played with it) but I don't have the model yet sadly.  Does the rest of the list look okay?

[Spike0738]

4 hours ago, Bengt said:

Yeah, Immunity to a Condition is a specific game term (defined in the box on page 39). An Ability that says you do not take damage from a Condition (e.g. Rail Golem, Fire Gamin) is not the same thing as Immunity.

I did not realize this... I've been playing wrong, and I apologize for the wrong information... Wow, this makes a world of difference, and I feel dumb. lol 

2 hours ago, retnab said:

I'm thinking something more like:

Kaeris (Arcane Reservoir, Blinding Flame, Grab and Drop)

Eternal Flame

Firestarter (Imbued Energies)

Rail Golem

2x December Acolytes

2x Rail Workers

Think that would be a bit better?  My game was against Ironsides so I struggled to set much of anything on fire for most of it, but I feel in most other situations I should be able to get that synergy going much better.

I've personally never gotten the best usage out of 2 December Acolytes in anything but a Rasputina list, but they're not a bad choice for Kaeris by any means. I would personally go with 1 Acolyte and 1 Gunsmith for a good mix of board control and dmg output. The ++ to all flips against burning stuff is a good way to cycle through the deck, and also get any trigger you could want with the Gunsmith. 

If you ever get Johan, you might want to think about dropping either Arcane Resevoir or Eternal Flame with a Rail Worker to squeeze him in. He has condition removal and heal flips, while being a pretty damn good bruiser. 
 

[mythicFOX]

Working from a limited model pool that list looks good to me.  I really like that you're starting the game with eight activations.  Due to the way Burning works activation control is more important to a Kaeris crew than most other crews, and it's already important to them.  Plus any Kaeris list that doesn't have any Gunsmiths in it always get a bonus point from me.

Over time you'll want some condition removal, especially as it's something this crew is vulnerable to.  You'll also find you'll be leaning on The Firestarter and Acolytes for objective running more than you'd want.  So as you expand I'd consider moving toward;

Kaeris (Arcane Reservoir, Blinding Flame, Grab and Drop)

Malifaux Child

Firestarter

Rail Golem

December Acolyte

Rail Worker

Arcane Effigy

2x Moleman or Cassandra or Myranda to taste.

[Sordid Strumpet]

Cassandra is fantastic in conjunction with the Malifaux Child because while she can't directly Understudy Kaeris on account of her not being a showgirl, she can understudy the Malifaux Child's Just like you ability to then copy Kaeris' Flaming Halo with a + flip to set more things around Kaeris on fire (I like Fire Gamin hanging out near Kaeris, they're cheap and good shots so location isn't as important for them as it would be for other things).

I REALLY want Myranda, but I don't like any aspect of Marcus so I'm not buying that box. And I can't convince myself $20 shipping plus $20 per individual model (I'll need a beast too) and two months' wait time plus dealing with the Australian Fun Police who will chase me up to make me pay tax on a product not made in Australia and not sold to me in Australia are worth it.

[Spike0738]

3 hours ago, mythicFOX said:

Working from a limited model pool that list looks good to me.  I really like that you're starting the game with eight activations.  Due to the way Burning works activation control is more important to a Kaeris crew than most other crews, and it's already important to them.  Plus any Kaeris list that doesn't have any Gunsmiths in it always get a bonus point from me.

Is there any specific reason you don't like the Gunsmith? or just your personal preference? I feel like having more ranged dmg is better for Kaeris, so she can spread burning more efficiently, the Gunsmith is sturdy enough with H2K and DF triggers to be effective in melee too, while still adding that range potential...

I'm also surprised that no one mentioned the Mechanical Rider in this part of the discussion, she's one of the best purchases for Arcanists IMO. The free Gamin summon from her adds to the activations that this crew gets, as well as provides some great scheme marker potential. Not to mention, most people will be targeting her early, instead of the other important models on the table. 

Kaeris (AR, G&D and BF)
Firestarter (IE) 
Mechanical Rider or Rail Golem (Depending on Strat & Schemes)
Johan
Acolyte or Gunsmith (depending on strat & schemes)
Rail Worker
Arcane Effigy

I've recently grown to like the AE, but I'm not opposed to just using a 5pt model or a 4pt Gamin in it's place. 

[Breng77]

3 hours ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Cassandra is fantastic in conjunction with the Malifaux Child because while she can't directly Understudy Kaeris on account of her not being a showgirl, she can understudy the Malifaux Child's Just like you ability to then copy Kaeris' Flaming Halo with a + flip to set more things around Kaeris on fire (I like Fire Gamin hanging out near Kaeris, they're cheap and good shots so location isn't as important for them as it would be for other things).

I REALLY want Myranda, but I don't like any aspect of Marcus so I'm not buying that box. And I can't convince myself $20 shipping plus $20 per individual model (I'll need a beast too) and two months' wait time plus dealing with the Australian Fun Police who will chase me up to make me pay tax on a product not made in Australia and not sold to me in Australia are worth it.

I don't think just like you was a cast action (I could be wrong). I thought I was just a tactical action at which point Cassandra cannot understudy the child for it, thus she cannot steal Kaeris' actions.  She is still good though.

[Spike0738]

21 minutes ago, Breng77 said:

I don't think just like you was a cast action (I could be wrong). I thought I was just a tactical action at which point Cassandra cannot understudy the child for it, thus she cannot steal Kaeris' actions.  She is still good though.

(1) Understudy: This spell, while not technically an Attack Action, allows Cassandra to take a (1) CA Action printed on a friendly non-leader's card, unless the target is a showgirl like Colette. This gives Cassy her ridiculous level of flexibility- if you bring an Oxfordian Mage, you can steal its (1) Elemental Bolt attack. If you bring a Coryphee, you can steal it's (1) Dance Partner. If you bring a Performer, you can use it's (1) Seduction. Cassandra can even target herself with this, allowing her to use her own (1) Actions.

Just Like You! action can be used to cast the Ca actions of his Leader as long as the Action does not name a model [7/1/14 Errata]. All actions taken in this manner suffer -3 Ca, but also gain a +flip to the casting attempt. Any damage dealt by the ability suffers a -flip, however, which makes the Child better at using his Leader's support actions than their damaging actions. Just Like You! can only copy actions with an AP cost of 1, and can only be used once per turn. Note, the Child cannot declare any Triggers that list a model by name on copied Ca actions.

As long as Just Like You! is a Ca action, it would work... I also think it might be just a tactical action, with no Ca associated, though. Regardless, you'll be able to copy the Firestarters burning ability directly, so you wont need to copy Malifaux Child's ability to take the -3Ca. 

[mythicFOX]

@Spike0738Mech Rider is Mech Rider.  It's above the power curve and invaluable in the right scenarios. It's a valuable inclusion in any Arcanist players case, I think some people do auto-hire it too much though. Effigy is great, people should use it in more lists. It's seriously awesome.  I always argued the first Metal Gamin you hire should be the AE, and nothing's changed there.

In Malifaux attacking at range is mechanically worse than attacking in melee.  This is why gun-line lists make little real impact in the game. 

Gunsmiths; all they do is suck resources into getting a mediocre damage flip.  There is never a situation where they're a better a choice for Kaeris than something else we have access to for 7ss or less.  If you want to shoot things; Acolyte, Trapper, or one Oxfordian Mage (with the bonus tome ward) do this better.  Want to do damage up close or hold ground; Johan, Large Arachnid, output more damage and are just as well protected.  Want to go grab objectives; The Firestarter, and Soulstone Miner are more effective.  

If you don't know what job you're hiring the model to do; stop right there. Figure out what you want the model to do, then hire the right model. Don't hire the wrong model then come up with a plan later. Knowing what job you're hiring each model to do will up your win rate significantly with every master.

For the record ignoring Armour/HtW with weak damage two is worse than having weak damage three, or handing out burning 1 with the weak 2 hit.

Now if you have a small model pool the Gunsmith being mediocre at a number of jobs will make it an OK choice until your collection reaches the point where you have enough models to play the right model for the job.

[Spike0738]

11 minutes ago, mythicFOX said:

Gunsmiths; all they do is suck resources into getting a mediocre damage flip.  There is never a situation where they're a better a choice for Kaeris than something else we have access to for 7ss or less.  If you want to shoot things; Acolyte, Trapper, or one Oxfordian Mage (with the bonus tome ward) do this better.  Want to do damage up close or hold ground; Johan, Large Arachnid, output more damage and are just as well protected.  Want to go grab objectives; The Firestarter, and Soulstone Miner are more effective.  

Hmm, I don't necessarily agree, but I suppose I am bias when it comes to the Gunsmiths. 

Being able to attack close combat or ranged, is big for me. Especially against Rezzers or Gremlins that can have a lot of weaker activations, that can scoop up schemes relatively easy. Protecting a scheme becomes much easier with range vs those kind of scheme runners. As well as the ability to go into melee with her attacks, is quite nice. I also like the addition of Smoldering Heart, and the synergy she has with Kaeris' crew burning. The ability to ignore armor, h2k or h2w and the ability to eliminate soul stone usage for damage prevention, are great ways to finish off tough models. Saving the AP from removing the last 2-3 health of a H2K model is fairly useful in the grand scheme of things. I can't tell you how many times I've had Murder Proteje and just cannot get the last damage of a H2K model, or a model is brought to 1 or 2 health because of armor..etc. I almost always bring a Gunsmith for killy schemes, and the Acolyte for others. 

My meta might be different, but I'm not sure I can agree that there is "never" a situation where they are better regardless of your meta... 7ss is a bit much, I agree, I feel they would be much more reasonable at 6ss, but the potential is there which is why I imagine they're 7ss. 

Interesting views though. I've had nothing but success with the Gunsmith, so I can't complain. Very interesting to see someone who doesn't like them, at all. 

[Bengt]

13 minutes ago, Spike0738 said:

As long as Just Like You! is a Ca action, it would work... I also think it might be just a tactical action, with no Ca associated, though. Regardless, you'll be able to copy the Firestarters burning ability directly, so you wont need to copy Malifaux Child's ability to take the -3Ca. 

"Just Like You!" is not a Ca Action. For something to be a Ca Action it has to require a Ca Duel, e.g. "(1) Misplaced Trust (Ca 3 /TN: 10 / Rg: 6)".

[mythicFOX]

@Spike0738 As always in these things YMMV.

Over many years of active competitive play I've found that if I need a model to work at two ranges most of the time that means it's either the wrong model, or is in the wrong place, or both. In my experience it's better to hire a model that works well up close, or works well at range and playing them to their strength.   Otherwise I've found I'm hiring a model that's not good at either and muddling through with it.

It's hard to find a situation / board position where the Gunsmith is useless, but I think that just masks it being misplayed. In all the positions where it's not useless another model more suited to the position would be better. 

As an example go through a recent game, and think turn by turn what a Gunsmith did. See if another model could have done the same / better had you hired it instead.

[Spike0738]

1 hour ago, mythicFOX said:

@Spike0738 As always in these things YMMV.

Over many years of active competitive play I've found that if I need a model to work at two ranges most of the time that means it's either the wrong model, or is in the wrong place, or both. In my experience it's better to hire a model that works well up close, or works well at range and to playing them to their strength.   Otherwise I've found I'm hiring a model that's not good at either and muddling through with it.

It's hard to find a situation / board position where the Gunsmith is useless, but I think that just masks it being misplayed. In all the positions where it's not useless another model more suited to the position would be better. 

As an example go through a recent game, and think turn by turn what a Gunsmith did. See if another model could have done the same / better had you hired it instead.

I suppose that's a fair assessment.

I guess I just like having the variety, regardless if it's mediocre, because I can't count on every model that I hired for a specific job is going to make it through the game. Having the versatility seems to change the way my opponent activates and maneuvers. Sometimes my greatest strength in tabletop games is predicting what an opponent will do, and I find that it's my greatest weakness at times, as well. Leaving an open door to multiple avenues leaves the opponent kind of in the dark and often relies on guessing. I'm not quite as hampered by counter plays and defensive moves, if I have other options to do. 

Very interesting take, thanks for sharing. 

[orkdork]

On 12/29/2015 at 8:22 AM, mythicFOX said:

As an example go through a recent game, and think turn by turn what a Gunsmith did. See if another model could have done the same / better had you hired it instead.

First off, I basically totally agree with you, HOWEVER:

When you are in control of the game, applying your models how you want to, specialist models shine. When your opponent is in control of the game, and you really need the cards to save you, generalists are often better.

[mythicFOX]

8 minutes ago, orkdork said:

First off, I basically totally agree with you, HOWEVER:

When you are in control of the game, applying your models how you want to, specialist models shine. When your opponent is in control of the game, and you really need the cards to save you, generalists are often better.

Can you expend on that? I'm not sure I follow your point.  It reads like you're saying that generalists are better when you're losing the game.

To which my response would be; I'm not going to hire models which are good when I'm losing the game.  I'm going to hire models which will win me the game.

[orkdork]

Rereading my post, I think it isn't very well put. I kinda have several points mashed together

The more important is really the idea of specialist vs generalist models. I find that stronger players tend to gravitate toward specialist models because they are accustomed to dictating the board, thus those specialist models get to play to their strengths and hide their weaknesses.

The secondary point about "when losing the game" is kinda complex, especially for posting from a smartphone

If I get a moment at a real machine, I will try to elaborate.

[bertmac]

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

Took Kaeris with purifying fire last night in guard the stash. Also took Joss, Howard Langston and the rail golem. backed up with eternal flame and  a december acolyte who was my frame for murder target..

Kaeris and flame kept Joss and Hank healed whilst Joss tanked Lynch and Hank and the rail golem got murdering. Only Model I lost was the acolyte and I didnt even pop imbued from the golem or Hank.

[bertmac]

Managed a 10-8 win vs nico today in interference.

Took kaeris with grab and drop and arcane resevoir.

Malifaux child

2x hoarcats

Arcane effigy

2xfire gamin

December acolyte

Mech rider

Malifaux raptor.

We were playing with the new schemes for the first time and i took convict labour and occupy their turf.

Some good stuff got done hoarcats are great for their cost with weak damage of 3. The raptor managed to get off its mask trigger vs a necropunk start of turn 2 letting me discard the top 3 cards of my opponents deck, they came out red joker, 10crows and 12 of something else I was very happy with that!

Mech rider pretty much completed occupy by itself and burning wings set up convict labour from turn 1. My opponent missed strat points turn 2 and turn 5 when the rider moved and summoned in my the corner nico was occupying.