Lawyer objection attack clarification

[Tapdancer]

The wording on this isn't the usual on damage condition is applied. Rather it talks about on doing moderate or severe damage slow/paralysis is applied. Does this mean that damage mitigation cannot block the effect?

[brdparker]

Nope, I don't see any reason why it would. You flip mod, target's slowed. You flip severe, target's paralyzed. This is separate from the damage, and thus happens regardless of how much is dealt.

[zFiend]

Nope, I don't see any reason why it would. You flip mod, target's slowed. You flip severe, target's paralyzed. This is separate from the damage, and thus happens regardless of how much is dealt.

 

It would say After damaging if that was the case. It's not related to the damage. You flip severe cards and Paralyze it is. Just like the poster above said.

[Stinkmunk]

That's my read as well.  Good thinking!

[MasterDisaster]

I'm afraid I disagree. Damage needs to be physically done to the enemy to apply the condition. 

 

"(1) OBJECTION!!! (Ca 6t / Rst: Wp / Rg: y1): Target suffers 2/2/2 damage. If moderate damage is dealt, the target gains the Slow Condition. If severe damage is dealt, the target gains the Paralyzed Condition."

 

So here's the action in question. Notice the text I've put in bold. I'd say the "damage is dealt" makes this fairly clear cut. If you prevent or reduce the damage to 0 then no damage is dealt therefore no Slow/Paralyze. It doesn't say if you flip Moderate/Severe for damage. It specifically states moderate/severe damage must be dealt. 

 

The reason I see it's worded differently is because the damage track is 2/2/2. If you deal 2 damage for a Weak flip then you just get the damage. If you dealt 2 damage for Moderate then the Slow part of the action kicks in, if you deal 2 damage for Severe then the Paralyze kicks in. 

[The Godlyness]

How is it read That "xy" conditions apply with out doing damage. General inquiry no sarcasm or insult.

[Durza]

There's other abilities with different wording, like the December acolytes weapons, they say target suffers x/y/z damage and gains slow. (I'm at work and don't have the cards on me so I'm not too sure on the details.)

But I would agree that you need to damage to get the effect due to the wording.

[entropolous]

Damage dealt is different from damage suffered.  Damage suffered is reduced by armor or prevented by soulstones or other abilities/triggers, but the damage dealt remains the same.  References:

Page 51 (manual) under Damage and Wounds

"A damage flip is indicated as three numbers seperated by slashes...with the amount of damage dealt depending on the value of the card flipped.."

"if damage is modified by a static value...the final damage after the damage flip is modified."

Page 52 (manual) under Jokers and the Damage Flip:

"The red joker always deals an amount equal to the Severe plus the Weak damage." 

 

The way I read it the phrase "Damage dealt" is a reference to the result of the damage flip, before any reduction or prevention.

[Tapdancer]

I'm afraid I disagree. Damage needs to be physically done to the enemy to apply the condition.  "(1) OBJECTION!!! (Ca 6t / Rst: Wp / Rg: y1): Target suffers 2/2/2 damage. If moderate damage is dealt, the target gains the Slow Condition. If severe damage is dealt, the target gains the Paralyzed Condition." So here's the action in question. Notice the text I've put in bold. I'd say the "damage is dealt" makes this fairly clear cut. If you prevent or reduce the damage to 0 then no damage is dealt therefore no Slow/Paralyze. It doesn't say if you flip Moderate/Severe for damage. It specifically states moderate/severe damage must be dealt.  The reason I see it's worded differently is because the damage track is 2/2/2. If you deal 2 damage for a Weak flip then you just get the damage. If you dealt 2 damage for Moderate then the Slow part of the action kicks in, if you deal 2 damage for Severe then the Paralyze kicks in.

the issue with line of logic is that whilst this models damage track is 2/2/2 it is possible to do do zero damage natively, you will be still inflicting weak/moderate/sever. Damage mitigation does not change the type or level of damage done weak/moderate/sever only the amount of damage.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Let me ask you this Masterdisator, just as a thought experiment. Given your current argument, what if a model were created that gave an inherent bonus to dmg of say, +1, just for standing in range of the model.

 

Let's imagine the lawyer is standing next to such a model and attacks and does moderate dmg, which would be 2 +1 for a total of three. Is the model slowed? According to your argument, no they wouldn't be because moderate dmg (2) wasn't done. More dmg than moderate was done, but Moderate damage of 2 was not done. If the dmg done is reduce to 0 it still doesn't change the fact that moderate dmg was flipped, and if it does then anything that increases dmg in anyway will screw up those abilities.

 

That's the way I see it anyway.

[The Godlyness]

But if a model does 0 damage (ie prevention) then no damage was dealt. So moderate or severe damage Can not be 0 for the conditions to apply.

[PolishSausage]

Damage flipped establishes if it was weak/moder/sever never does it say AFTER Damaging With x y z

[PolishSausage]

Let me ask you this Masterdisator, just as a thought experiment. Given your current argument, what if a model were created that gave an inherent bonus to dmg of say, +1, just for standing in range of the model.

 

Let's imagine the lawyer is standing next to such a model and attacks and does moderate dmg, which would be 2 +1 for a total of three. Is the model slowed? According to your argument, no they wouldn't be because moderate dmg (2) wasn't done. More dmg than moderate was done, but Moderate damage of 2 was not done. If the dmg done is reduce to 0 it still doesn't change the fact that moderate dmg was flipped, and if it does then anything that increases dmg in anyway will screw up those abilities.

 

That's the way I see it anyway.

+1

[The Godlyness]

the issue with line of logic is that whilst this models damage track is 2/2/2 it is possible to do do zero damage natively, you will be still inflicting weak/moderate/sever. Damage mitigation does not change the type or level of damage done weak/moderate/sever only the amount of damage.

Then it would be worded like Levi's unnatural wasting. If moderate or severe is flipped or cheated, not damage dealt.

[Tapdancer]

This is a lest wordy version of that. It also doesn't say after damaging but there is still a desire to place a minimum damage requirement for the effect to be applied.

[The Godlyness]

"(1) OBJECTION!!! (Ca 6t / Rst: Wp / Rg: y1): Target suffers 2/2/2 damage. If moderate damage is dealt, the target gains the Slow Condition. If severe damage is dealt, the target gains the Paralyzed Condition."

 

(1) Kiss Goodnight (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: y1): Target suffers 1/1/3 damage. If the target suffers Moderate or Severe damage, it gains the Slow Condition.

Yellow Teeth (Ml 4C / Rst: Df / Rg: y1): Target suffers 0/0/1 damage and gains the following Condition until the end of the game: "Blighted +1: At the end of the Turn, increase this Condition's value by 1." Increase the value of Blighted to +2 if Moderate damage is fipped or cheated and +3 if Severe is fipped or cheated.

Only reason I can see that objections conditions are not triggers is cause they would need suits. But otherwise 0damage = no damage faq explains that. Moderate/ severe damage can't be dealt if no damage is dealt.

[entropolous]

Damage "dealt" =\= damaged "suffered". The FAQ has no bearing on this.

[Tapdancer]

The example the yellow teeth seems to show a 0 damage attack can still apply a condition.

[The Godlyness]

Key words is flipped. Not damage dealt.

[entropolous]

Key words is flipped. Not damage dealt.

Damage flipped = damage dealt

[The Godlyness]

Damage "dealt" =\= damaged "suffered". The FAQ has no bearing on this.

How does one deal damage if the thing your are attacking does not suffer damage? If I don't suffer damage you have not dealt damage.

[entropolous]

How does one deal damage if the thing your are attacking does not suffer damage? If I don't suffer damage you have not dealt damage.

What was prevented if no damage was dealt?

Damage dealt is the result of the damage flip. Not damage suffered by the model.

If I am wrong not this then damage from a red joker damage flip cannot be reduced or prevented, as the rulebook says the red joker "always deals" severe plus weak damage.

[MasterDisaster]

Let me ask you this Masterdisator, just as a thought experiment. Given your current argument, what if a model were created that gave an inherent bonus to dmg of say, +1, just for standing in range of the model.

 

Let's imagine the lawyer is standing next to such a model and attacks and does moderate dmg, which would be 2 +1 for a total of three. Is the model slowed? According to your argument, no they wouldn't be because moderate dmg (2) wasn't done. More dmg than moderate was done, but Moderate damage of 2 was not done. If the dmg done is reduce to 0 it still doesn't change the fact that moderate dmg was flipped, and if it does then anything that increases dmg in anyway will screw up those abilities.

 

That's the way I see it anyway.

 

I see your point and it makes sense. But counter to that argument Yes, Moderate damage was done but also so was +1 bonus damage for an outside source. I don't think I conveyed my opinion as clearly as I could have and it appears to have been taken very literally. I'm at work at the moment but if I get time later I'll try to explain what I meant a bit more clearly. 

[Sarge048]

As one other observation here, if dmg dealt is the same as dmg suffered then the lawyer would be incapable of ever giving slow or paralyzed to any model with armor.  After all a model with armor would only suffer 1 dmg and since 1 dmg is less than 2 it wouldn't be equal to moderate or severe dmg.

[MasterDisaster]

Having just messaged my local henchman he explained it to me that if an attack is successful the attack can deal 2 damage, that isn't necessarily the damage the target model suffers.

 

Objections could deal 2 damage to Von Schill via Moderate but his armour means he only suffers 1 damage in the end. So I have to concede and agree with the others. It makes a lot of sense when you look at it this way.

 

1. Moderate damage is flipped.

2. Moderate = 2 damage.

3. Armour (or other reduction/prevention) reduces damage by 1.

4. Target suffers 1 damage but as 2 was originally dealt before the reduction/prevention the Slow still applies.

 

Looking at it like this you could deal 2 damage, prevent it all with a soulstone and suffer none but as the attack dealt 2 damage originally the slow is also dished out regardless of how much damage the target actually suffers. 

 

I assume this is what you guys are getting at?