Arcanists facing Sonnia!!

[r4st4f4n]

Let's say, between our 7 Masters we should have: ~2 Masters that "suck" ^{(*I know each Master should be perfectly balanced with every other, but we don't live in a perfect world)} against a certain Master/play, ~2 that play on a par, ~2 that have much advantage, as much the worst 2 suck. Very broadly.

I found that Ramos is not between the "Advantaged", as everything within his auras makes him liable to be hit by the 14" , 8" from the target(2" + 50mm Blast x3) Ca9 punishment. The 3 spiders decease the same turn they're summoned, if anything near gets hit.  The ways behind cover, get blocked by Impassable Flame Walls, and after the first model gets +1 Burning, there is no "Cover" or "Out of LoS" anymore.
And Stalkers explode in Ml, giving Dg and auto-Burning +1.

Mei Feng can't field(or properly use) the Rail Golem, as it becomes a walking Fireworks Factory. Kang and Workers still Wk4...

Haven't faced with Rasputina, I read it's not a breeze. I don't know about Kaeris, nor about Iron, Showgirls and Beasts low fire hazard.


The Topic is "Arcanists facing Sonnia", so, put here everything useful!

[Sybarite]

With Mei Feng, you can just take Miss Step instead (she really doesn't need the golem), and you can create a bubble with vent steam and steam cloud giving Sonnia double minus flips (unless i'm mistaken) against models in the bubble. Miss Step and Mei are also fast enough to get into combat with Sonnia.

[Tapdancer]

Yup speaking as a guild player Sonnia is alot less effective if you get her tied up in melee

[Dracomax]

Let's say, between our 7 Masters we should have: ~2 Masters that "suck" ^{(*I know each Master should be perfectly balanced with every other, but we don't live in a perfect world)} against a certain Master/play, ~2 that play on a par, ~2 that have much advantage, as much the worst 2 suck. Very broadly.

I found that Ramos is not between the "Advantaged", as everything within his auras makes him liable to be hit by the 14" , 8" from the target(2" + 50mm Blast x3) Ca9 punishment. The 3 spiders decease the same turn they're summoned, if anything near gets hit.  The ways behind cover, get blocked by Impassable Flame Walls, and after the first model gets +1 Burning, there is no "Cover" or "Out of LoS" anymore.

And Stalkers explode in Ml, giving Dg and auto-Burning +1.

Mei Feng can't field(or properly use) the Rail Golem, as it becomes a walking Fireworks Factory. Kang and Workers still Wk4...

Haven't faced with Rasputina, I read it's not a breeze. I don't know about Kaeris, nor about Iron, Showgirls and Beasts low fire hazard.

The Topic is "Arcanists facing Sonnia", so, put here everything useful!

Honestly, I've found that Vs. SOnnia, Ramos is okay. The armor and Df bonuses, plus arachnid invulnerability to pulses really mean that Sonnia has to focus fairly hard. She only gets bonuses against burning, and it is fairly easy for Ramos to send enough spiders out to stop the stalkers from getting close to bruiser units, which als tend to be fast enough to get into contact with Sonnia's larger people and start meleeing.

 

Add in easy access to healing, and Ramos can hold his own against pretty much anything short of Sonnia herself, and even that requires focus. Time is not on Sonnia's side, and with enough models summoned, Ramos can get schemes and strategies while Sonnia is using all her resources to take him down.

[r4st4f4n]

She only gets bonuses against burning

Though many players tend to forget it themselves, she has    to her already Ca9 actions, against Wp6+ models, before any Burning comes in. And those tend to be most  Arcanist Masters and Henchmen, Howard(Miss Step), Mech Rider, Arachnids and Electric Creation. I'd prefer to forget it as well xD

Btw, I'd like to know how the 4 Masters I don't steadily play yet do behave against her, too

[Adran]

The other thing I would say is that a lot of the damage typically given out by a sonnia crew relies on Burning, so the Rail golem is an easy target to hit, but typically you do little damage to him since he isn't hurt by burning, and they are fueling a potentially devistating turn from the rail golem as it can turn each of those burning in to movement or attacks. Or passes out burning to everything nearby.

[Dracomax]

They are still Df actions, so The from arcing screen also applies. And hard cover still provides a to damage. So Cover is not useless, as it makes the attack a straight flip. Howard is hard to conceal, but he is also fast. The big thing with Sonnia is going to be to keep spread out, and move up quickly. Soft cover is still decent as well, as it denies the on the attack, which means she either has to cheat from a fairly limited hand, or get it on the flip. If you are within range of Ramos Arcing screen, the +fate on the Df gives you a pretty good chance of giving her a on the damage, or miss entirely for many of the models.

 

Also, If you think you might be up against her, bringing a SS miner or Moleman and getting up into melee is going to help. She might take them out in one or two turns, but at that point, it is turn 3-4, and Howard Should be beating on her. If she isn't using the +2 for Df, then she is pretty gone at that point. and Ramos is accomplishing schemes.

 

Really, against Sonnia, the best strategy is to harry her, while doing schemes. Hit her from a lot of angles, increase target count, use armor and healing to frustrate her, and if she gets to close, electric fire her and use constructs as bombs. She can do a lot of damage, but she still tends to not hit sever all that often if you play well and mitigate burning. and Weak damage on armor 2 is going to take long time to wear away models.

 

I'm not saying it will be easy, but it isn't hard either. It's just a matter of playing to strategies, using healing well, and using cover properly, rather than  playing the "Keep in one place and just make spiders" game.

[Dracomax]

The other thing I would say is that a lot of the damage typically given out by a sonnia crew relies on Burning, so the Rail golem is an easy target to hit, but typically you do little damage to him since he isn't hurt by burning, and they are fueling a potentially devistating turn from the rail golem as it can turn each of those burning in to movement or attacks. Or passes out burning to everything nearby.

Well, it doesn't do damage to him by itself, but if sonnia or Sam goes before the RG, it is pretty likely dead.

[r4st4f4n]

They are still Df actions, so The from arcing screen also applies. And hard cover still provides a to damage. So Cover is not useless, as it makes the attack a straight flip. Howard is hard to conceal, but he is also fast. The big thing with Sonnia is going to be to keep spread out, and move up quickly. Soft cover is still decent as well, as it denies the on the attack, which means she either has to cheat from a fairly limited hand, or get it on the flip. If you are within range of Ramos Arcing screen, the +fate on the Df gives you a pretty good chance of giving her a on the damage, or miss entirely for many of the models.

 

Also, If you think you might be up against her, bringing a SS miner or Moleman and getting up into melee is going to help. She might take them out in one or two turns, but at that point, it is turn 3-4, and Howard Should be beating on her. If she isn't using the +2 for Df, then she is pretty gone at that point. and Ramos is accomplishing schemes.

 

Really, against Sonnia, the best strategy is to harry her, while doing schemes. Hit her from a lot of angles, increase target count, use armor and healing to frustrate her, and if she gets to close, electric fire her and use constructs as bombs. She can do a lot of damage, but she still tends to not hit sever all that often if you play well and mitigate burning. and Weak damage on armor 2 is going to take long time to wear away models.

 

I'm not saying it will be easy, but it isn't hard either. It's just a matter of playing to strategies, using healing well, and using cover properly, rather than  playing the "Keep in one place and just make spiders" game.

I collect everything useful you teach me, and respond just to the points I'm not persuaded

The Arcing Screen and the healing require a reduction of the spread between the models, and those +2" really reach the unreachable. Very unlikely for her to miss entirely, even if you have a on Df to counter her , she still duels with a 3-5 higher stat.

 

and if she gets to close, electric fire her

 

Omg. Only if my opponent has no hand. And no SS. And no models. And we aren't even playing xD If Reflect Magic goes bad, Victor gets toasted!

 

 

The other thing I would say is that a lot of the damage typically given out by a sonnia crew relies on Burning, so the Rail golem is an easy target to hit, but typically you do little damage to him since he isn't hurt by burning, and they are fueling a potentially devistating turn from the rail golem as it can turn each of those burning in to movement or attacks. Or passes out burning to everything nearby.

Df4 vs Ca9, reachable by Sonnia and Samael without LoS and Cover? And the Burning you give can be erased by any of the Stalkers, if dangerous, or used against you, targeting them through walls? Mmmm...

[Dracomax]

I collect everything useful you teach me, and respond just to the points I'm not persuaded

The Arcing Screen and the healing request a reduction of the spread between the models, and those +2" really reach the unreachable. Very unlikely for her to miss entirely, even if you have a on Df to counter her , she still duels with a 3-5 greater stat.

 

Omg. Only if my opponent has no hand. And no SS. And no models. And we aren't even playing xD If Reflect Magic goes bad, Victor gets toasted!

 

 

Df4 vs Ca9, reachable by Sonnia and Samael without LoS and Cover? And the Burning you give can be erased by any of the Stalkers, if dangerous, or used against you, targeting them through walls? Mmmm...

Because it is so hard to hit a Df 1 with a CA 7 which ignores randomization? You did get 3 or more spiders into B2B before attacking her with it, right? IIRC, Reflect Magic only goes off against a miss, so...

 

I remain unconvinced, as both a Sonnia and a Ramos player, that it would be as easy on a consitent basis as you seem to think.  BET, the heal, armor, and the arc screen can mitigate anything but severe damage on blasts, so individual targetting is the greatest threat. and Ramos crew tends to be more maneuverable than Sonnia or Sam. In the meantime, Ramos is out-activating, using bombs against witchlings which get to close(and again, spiders ignore them blowing up) and generally making it difficult to get that burning on him if he doesn't want it.

 

Also, Keep in mind that Sonnia's blasts still require LOS to the original target. She has nothing that over-rides that requirement.

 

Ramos is going to take some losses. Anyone going against her is. He actually has better tools to deal with it than a lot of crews though, because of how much easier it is to replenish his numbers. In addition, He needs SS less than Sonnia(he primarily uses them to summon a third spider if he has a high enough card in hand), and can use his cards to bluff, whereas she is generally at least 2 cards down by the time she acts. As long as he keeps her busy, he can get his objectives, and she has to take a lot more effort to kill his forces off than he needs to take to stop her, in a general sense.

 

I probably wouldn't bring a Rail Golem against SOnnia, but I might bring a Mech Rider. If I keeep it alive for 2-3 turns, then she has a fairly tough time killing it, and it can target and harry her easily. I'd bring some Molemen and or Soulstone miners to get up into her face and keep her and Sam from using Ranged attacks. I'd probably look closely at the Captain for pushes, the Coryphee for harrying/scheme running, and Johan for extra healing, and Malifaux Child looks really strong, as does the friekorps Librarian. Howard is a bit iffy. If I think I can get him up into melee quickly with Sonnia's big people, I'm more likely to take him. since even the steam cloud is going to not be all that useful at keeping him alive, he has to get into attack range quickly.

[thebarbalag]

I agree that Ramos can handle Sonia well enough, but off rather have Marcus against her. Everything is generally fast enough to get her engaged. Marcus doesn't need to cast spells at her. Get in melee, smack her with Primal Awakening, Domesticate, Profit...er, wipe her out.

[dgraz]

As mainly a Marcus player, I'll say that he does pretty good against her. He and his crew are really fast, and he has plenty of cheap models that can harass Sonnia and/or Sam. The only downside is his reliance on Conditions.....anything that turns you into a beast is a Condition, and Law of Meat is a condition.....it's hard enough to get those off on any decent model with their Counterspell and Reflect Magic.....you can get the Beast with some melee.......but with all of those Stalkers around, it isn't going to last very long.

 

SS Dampening can also be a problem. The Beasts are all generally pretty squishy, but on the up side, they are fast enough to get into melee where they are fairly well protected from Sam and Sonnia.....if you can prevent the Stalkers from charging them, the Beasts generally high melee stat can prevent Sonnia and Sam from disengaging. A Cerberus in either of their faces will kick the crap out of them.

[Adran]

 

Df4 vs Ca9, reachable by Sonnia and Samael without LoS and Cover? And the Burning you give can be erased by any of the Stalkers, if dangerous, or used against you, targeting them through walls? Mmmm...

Yes, that is true, she is going to hit, and probably be able to cheat the damage but I generally don't worry much about a 1/1/3 damage profile (after my armour). Just be sure that the rail golem isn't used as a blast generator.

 

Sam is a little more scary, but his effective  2/3/4 rapid fire probably won't kill me, and if he can shoot me, I can probably reach and strike him in 1 activation. (depending on how solid the board is I will admit). In melee he is brutal against the rail golem! But likewise, if I have a weak of 5 because of Locomotion and burning, Sam is dead in 2 blows.

 

If I'm facing Sonnia with a Rail golem the thing that worries me is Drain magic giving it - to cast. The loss of cover/line of sigth protection isn't huge in the way I use the Golem.

I often give it imbued energies meaning I have 12" threat  (4 " walk, 6" chareg and then 2" melee range) for my charge before I start on the locomotion, or 14" on the triple walk before I locomotion, which means I often hold it back against most people until I have a hand of destruction (well 2 or 3 tomes for locomotion). If I start 14" from Sam, I really have no need to worry about him.

 

It is also pretty good at fighting stalkers, alhough you are right, they should focus on removiong its burning a lot of the time, but they are made so much less effective when they can't do burning damage.  

 

Its not an auto pick, but it isn't made completly useless just because Sonnia is on the table.

[Jordon]

How are people dealing with Hopkins? I find his "burn them out" ability brutal and really make's hiding in cover quite difficult. I find proper placement is huge when facing sonia, which can be difficult in games like turf war.  

[Adran]

Personally I either ignore Hopkins, or get into his face ASAP. He puts out huge damage, but doesn't have much in the way of defence. Depending on my list I will possibly use a model like an imbued energies cerberus to leap, charge and have the 3rd attack as required (or extra move) hoping the 3 headed bonus is enough for me to kill him in one turn.

(other models in my lists that get used as the missile include Rail golem, Howard, Marcus and Mei Feng).

Typically I'm happy for the model to die in the counter attack as long as its achived what I wanted from it.

 

I end about 70% of my games without my master, but currently I'm on about a 75% win ration in M2E, so making the main battle field in a place of my chosing, and then keeping a few of my models away from that area to get the VPs, whilst the rest of my crew dies seems to work.

[Dracomax]

As a Sonnia player, I can tell you that hitting him early hurts, even with a lead lined coat, and that movement is his biggest weakness. If he can't get range or LOS on you, then he is going to spend half his activations trying to get into better position.

 

Keep in mind that if He is taking Witch hunt, He is an 11SS model. Many people aren't willing to pay that for him, given how many other opportunities the crew has to put burning out. Even if they do, it precludes his using rapid fire to use it, which dramatically cuts down on his potential damage. a bad shot after Witch hunt can be very frustrating.

 

Also, general anti-Sonnia Tip: You can take a (1) action to remove burning+1.

[osoi]

I have only faced Sonnia a couple of times but both times I have come up well using Mei. Each time I have taken Howard and Johan along with the Emberling then rounded out with a combination of Molemen, Spiders, Metal Gamin and Railworkers.

 

The crew is fats enough to worry really worry her and the threat of an Imbued Energies Howrad missile often sets you up to be in a better posistion, if Howard survives even better but I have found the tthreat of shoving such a lethal model down an opponents throat often comes up trumps.

 

Taking Bleeding Edge Tech on Johan makes him a bit of a lynchpin model in the crew but he is tough an dif you take a lot of minion constructs he really helps keep the crew humming along passively along with his condition removal.

[osoi]

I have only faced Sonnia a couple of times but both times I have come up well using Mei. Each time I have taken Howard and Johan along with the Emberling then rounded out with a combination of Molemen, Spiders, Metal Gamin and Railworkers.

 

The crew is fats enough to worry really worry her and the threat of an Imbued Energies Howrad missile often sets you up to be in a better posistion, if Howard survives even better but I have found the tthreat of shoving such a lethal model down an opponents throat often comes up trumps.

 

Taking Bleeding Edge Tech on Johan makes him a bit of a lynchpin model in the crew but he is tough an dif you take a lot of minion constructs he really helps keep the crew humming along passively along with his condition removal.

[Arkion]

I think it's also helpful to have a "sacrifice" against Sonnia. Something the Sonnia player can't resist exploding. December Acolyte fits the bill perfectly, with his slow harpoon and From the Shadows, he's a real annoyance. Bonus points if Frame for Murder is in the pool. If Sonnia ignores the December Acolyte, she's likely to be Slow next turn, and Sam is too. If she kills it, then you've had a turn to get your crew into an optimal position for schemes / strategies / unleashing slaughter next turn.

[greenbeard]

Playing Sonnia I've found that people forget she's a glass cannon, with a mighty defense 4! She also needs a mask to trigger reflect magic.

Malifaux, more than any other game I've played really rewards people for thinking outside the box. I've only played against her once as Arcanists and did well with Rasputina. I made sure I had plenty of sacrificial ice gamin and then proceeded to chuck them at Hopkins head. If you can wait for the Sonnia player to burn a high mask or two, Raspitina can blow her away in a single activation.

Playing Sonnia I've learned to HATE judicious uses of Killjoy. Also it's important to remember if you can stay an inch away from terrain Hopkins becomes less horrifying.

Above all else play to your schemes and don't get to attached to your minions.

[dgraz]

If you can wait for the Sonnia player to burn a high mask or two, Raspitina can blow her away in a single activation.

 

Unless Sonnia has the Counterspell upgrade.....or someone has the Disrupt Magic upgrade and there are Stalkers everywhere.

[Archmage]

The cardinal rule of Malifaux, as always, is "play to the strategy and your schemes." But if Sonnia is presenting a threat that needs to be neutralized--and with most sets of objectives, she will--you have ways of dealing with her. Fast hitters that can tie her up and potentially kill her outright are your go-to option in my opinion. You want to put somebody in her face that she can't afford to ignore and that you are potentially willing to trade for Criid's life in hopes that simplifying the table will give you the advantage. My experience with her is that her minions just aren't that scary, it's Sonnia herself that is going to light up the table.

 

Every Ramos crew (IMO) is going to bring Howard Langston. Howard + Imbued Energies + Brass Arachnid's Stoke to give him Reactivate is a serious threat with a huge potential threat range. You should be able to secure activation control through summoning (and then potentially dispersing) a handful of spiders and perhaps an electrical creation. It should be completely doable to get Howard into a position where he can charge or Flurry Sonnia, and he'll tear her to shreds--barring SS use to reduce damage she dies in three hits. (Soulstones -will- get used, but you'll still put through a lot of damage and any Decapitate triggers you get will further drain her resources or even kill her outright). Even if you don't kill Sonnia with a Howard blitz, she's not doing anything to threaten the rest of your crew while she's tied up in melee and she's unlikely to be able to walk away with Df 4 or even Df 6 (and if she's spending cards/SS to boost Df, she's not using them to get Ca 9 and murder you, so you're probably ahead of the game).

 

Kaeris makes her pretty sad because if you take Grab and Drop any unit set ablaze within 6" of Kaeris gains flight, shakes off the burning, and gets to drop a scheme marker at the end of its activation. Makes it harder to set her up for LoS-ignoring shenanigans. I don't much like Kaeris's "convert burning to healing" upgrade and I don't think it helps you against Sonnia anyway because most of her damage output comes from Sonnia herself nuking people who are burning, not from the Burning condition, but it probably isn't a bad choice depending on the rest of your game plan.

 

Marcus has fast beatsticks that can stalk her and hop over terrain. I'd trade a Cerberus for Criid's head.

 

Mei's low weak damage really hurts her; she wants to be surrounded by enemies she can tear to shreds with Seismic Claws. You may or may not have the opportunity to do that in this matchup, but in any case sending her to assassinate Sonnia is probably a bad idea. The Mei + Howard "bubble" suggested in an earlier post sounds like a great way to get Mr. Langston into position to do serious damage.

 

Raspy should be shooting Sonnia's minions and staying out of range. The Blessed of December seems like a good beatstick if you want to stay in-theme. Howard is still good if you're willing to go out of it. You should be able to use Snow Storm plus the beatstick of your choice.

 

I haven't played Colette or Ironsides, so I don't have specific advice there.

 

The Mech Rider is good in pretty much any Arcanist crew. You're not going to send it to fight Sonnia directly, you're going to use it to scheme. It claims a table quarter by itself for Reconnoiter, just stay far enough away from the centerline that Sonnia can't nail you from the other side of the table. If the Rider's presence lures her far enough forward that your hitty units can get in her face and end her, all the better for you.

[Dracomax]

 

The cardinal rule of Malifaux, as always, is "play to the strategy and your schemes." But if Sonnia is presenting a threat that needs to be neutralized--and with most sets of objectives, she will--you have ways of dealing with her. Fast hitters that can tie her up and potentially kill her outright are your go-to option in my opinion. You want to put somebody in her face that she can't afford to ignore and that you are potentially willing to trade for Criid's life in hopes that simplifying the table will give you the advantage. My experience with her is that her minions just aren't that scary, it's Sonnia herself that is going to light up the table.

The Mech Rider is good in pretty much any Arcanist crew. You're not going to send it to fight Sonnia directly, you're going to use it to scheme. It claims a table quarter by itself for Reconnoiter, just stay far enough away from the centerline that Sonnia can't nail you from the other side of the table. If the Rider's presence lures her far enough forward that your hitty units can get in her face and end her, all the better for you.

 

Um, no. no it doesn't claim a quarter by itself for reconnoiter. Reconnoiter requires you have more models in the quadrant than your opponent. Awesome as the Mech rider is, it is still only one model. Two witchlings that survive to the end of the turn(as unlikely as that is for witchlings) will take a quadrant in which you have only a mech rider. If you got the construct drop off(and didn't drop an insignificant construct) You have two models, which can take a quadrant, but is by no means guaranteed to. and those constructs come in heavily injured, so are relatively easy to kill off.

[bertmac]

Played my mate last night took a Cerberus and Howard both with imbued energies mei feng, joss, kang and a railworker I was into his crew turn two and smashed them. Hopkins tried rapid firing at mei but her defence trigger kicked in and pushed her into engagement range with him on his first shot.

[Malicte]

Um, no. no it doesn't claim a quarter by itself for reconnoiter. Reconnoiter requires you have more models in the quadrant than your opponent. Awesome as the Mech rider is, it is still only one model. Two witchlings that survive to the end of the turn(as unlikely as that is for witchlings) will take a quadrant in which you have only a mech rider. If you got the construct drop off(and didn't drop an insignificant construct) You have two models, which can take a quadrant, but is by no means guaranteed to. and those constructs come in heavily injured, so are relatively easy to kill off.

 

Actually, in my experience, it does.  You're not contesting table quarters turn 1 anyways, and if you've drawn at least one tome (very likely in 12 cards, 14 if you've got arcane reservoir, more if you're stoning and without a 6+ tome I might) it's already 2 models at the end of turn 2.  It's 3 models on turn 3, 4 on turn 4, 5 on turn 5.  No, "it might not get the flip" here.  It only needs a 6.  If the enemy is actively killing off what it summons, it's taking them a lot of AP against df 6, HtK, 2 wound Metal Gamin.  Those AP are being wasted on something you're bringing in as an also ran.  If they're not burning AP on it, then you're sitting on multiple models that really did come, yes, "all by itself".

 

So sure, either it's won a corner because they aren't putting AP into fighting it (and by turn 3, unless they're committing more than a third of their crew, you're winning that quarter) or it's tying up a ton of their resources to contest it, they're over committing, and that means that you've drawn enough of their resources that what it's actually done is won you a *different* corner where those resources were otherwise committed.

 

As far as actively dealing with Sonnia, she's a lot less threatening in melee and she's actually incredibly fragile.  Howard, Cerberus, Coryphee, Rail Golem, or whichever face beater of choice can deal with her much easier than you'd expect, even with soulstones.  Plus, if you're in her face, she's not doing that whole "I light your whole crew on fire, oh god, the explosions" bit.  And that's generally a good start.