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I've been thinking of starting a thread like this one for a while now, but have held back because, well, this is a great forum, but still an internet forum, so I should probably know better... It seems to me there's been an increasing trend of more and more whining and shouting OP on the forum. Myself, I haven't played the top guns enough to weigh in too strongly on what is/isn't op. But I have a memory strong enough to see some hints indicating that not ALL of these complaints have merit. I do realize that the game has had 5 waves, and increasing complexity due to wider model pool increase the likelihood of OP models/combos, so I'm not saying NONE of these complaints have merit. But I have the impression that an increasing rate of errata the last two years have led to more cries from further erratas. From memory, the last few months have seen the following bold statements (not saying anyone in particular said this exactly, but I feel these are reasonably summaries of statements given in different threads): Sandeep (with mages) is virtually unbeatable, no other crew have any answers to this, and the only reason to play anything else is attatchment to already painted models/crews. Nicodem (with Asura and Kentauroi) is virtually unbeatable, no other crew have any answers to this, and the only reason to play anything else is attatchment to already painted models/crews. Gremlins cannot win against any competitive opponents anymore (despite winning UK Masters). Gremlins (in general) are OP, and should get banned/nerfed out of existence (and they're not a real faction anyway). Somer (with Warpigs) is virtually unbeatable, no other crew have any answers to this, and the only reason to play anything else is attatchment to already painted models/crews. Hamelin is OP, and should be banned. Thunders are useless, Guild is useless, Outcasts are useless, Neverborn are useless (or OP!), Arcanists outside of Sandeep are useless. Probably forgotten several others, but these were the ones at the top of my mind. I'm more than usually certain that all of these cannot be true at the same time! 🙂 From earlier we know that there have been crews that were really game warping and hard to find answers to (several in M1E, Leveticus/Viks with rat engine, etc) that dominated several tournament metas simultaneously. We've also seen crew builds that have dominated some metas, but not managed to reach the same level across metas (the Seamus Belle spam from Chicago comes to mind, who today feel Seamus should get a nerf?, but also Perdita at times, Viks, Sonnia Criid, Lynch, Lilith, Dreamer, Shenlong with Yasunori, Kirai, and several others have at times been complained about). I don't think it's useful for us to spend time and words on trying to figure out how we got here and why (I'll leave that to Wyrd), but I think it is useful for us to discuss how we best can give feedback to Wyrd about the state of the game. So how can we be more constructive in giving feedback? I propose the following goals that we should keep in mind whenever we give feedback/complain: We want a game as balanced as is practical, while we acknowledge that perfect balance will never be achieved. We want as civil a discussion as possible, with as much signal and as little noise as possible so the feedback will be of as high quality as possible. We want the neccessary changes only, change for change's sake is not desireable due to having to get new cards etc. The GG rotation will keep the game fresh without changing the stats for changes sake. Keep game warping models in check. If multiple players across metas rage-quits because they don't feel they have an answer to a crew/master/combo that's a problem. If a model/crew/master/combo is a little stronger than average/slightly undercosted it's not a problem. Anything else I'm missing? Based on the above I'd like to suggest the following recommendations for giving feedback on models' power level: Be clear whether you need help understanding HOW to beat a crew or whether you have seen aggregate experience demonstrating a crew is way too strong. Maybe someone from another meta have faced this particular puzzle earlier, and found a way to beat it! 🙂 Do NOT use hyperbole!! Very little is unbeatable, so don't claim it is. It will just poison the discussion to exaggerate, especially if there is a genuine case for something needing to be pulled in a bit. Never assume your own experience is universal! Sometimes a combo emerges that is universal, and will need to be controlled. But more often it's a combination of a slightly above the curve combo/crew combined with a very skilled player and/or a smaller/less experienced meta. There should be an acid test for when something is OP. My suggestion is that if something dominates smaller tournaments across metas over time (several months) AS WELL AS dominating several of the bigger tournaments across metas (UK Nationals, UK Masters, Adepticon, GenCon, others) it should be considered universally overpowered. If a crew/model/master fails this test, that doesn't mean that it is NOT too much over the curve and should NOT be reined in; it means it's not definitely established that it is OP yet, and we shouldn't act as if it is (see hyperbole above). Be polite! Everyone here are on here because we love the game. No-one wants the game to be unfun, and the forum is generally very helpful, and most players of powerful crews are willing to help others on how to beat them. Famously, when Leveticus/Viks won Adepticon with the rat engine, the winner came on here arguing that it should be banned because he himself couldn't see a way to beat it. It's much more valuable feedback when a big tournament winner argues that his crew is OP than whoever he beat in round 1. Be conservative! Not a general political advice this time, but a good advice when it comes to shouts for errata. It's easy to get carried away after being crushed in a tournament, but hot-headedness makes for a poor quality online discussion. Anything else? Just a note at the end: I'm not having a dig at anyone with this, I hope nobody takes it as such. I post this because I feel the historically very high quality discussion on here have deteriorated a little when it comes to power levels specifically, and I wanted to at least try to make an impact to improve the discourse. We'll see if this succeeds or gets shot down in flames... 😕