Yajnho

I like dreamer for plant explosives because of the incorporeal models.  It’s great to simply walk through the buildings or walls to drop your bombs, where your opponent has to go around. Besides, it seems like just the sort of game dreamer would play. 

Arik from Friekorp makes life pretty hard for Dreamer. 

Tara and crew being able to attack buried models is also pretty hard on a Dreamer crew, but not as bad.

I have concentrated on Dreamer and Titania for the Beta, but I suspect a crew that can ignore conditions such as Hamelin might give Pandora trouble.

3 hours ago, kaintxu said:

apart from a ranged attack, what does Aeslin do better than Hinamatsu?

She moves enemy models with the built in “into thorns” trigger, 2” + 50mm base. 

Blast damage. 

She also has a trigger to drop scheme markers with decay and can replace corps or scrap with scheme markers as her free action. 

Hinimatsu is obviously a better and more durable beater. 

The roles are just very different. Aeslin brings things to the crew not available elsewhere. There are several reasonable choices of beaters, all with slightly different utility (Killjoy, Rider, Hinimatsu).  

4 hours ago, Wenshai said:

I think thinking that the totem giving a rougarou a second life is a little limited in usage as well.

 

Could be a Hooded Rider, Killjoy, Doppelganger etc. Of course, it could also be a Rougarou, but still. I think having versatile models with unimpeded in this crew could be very strong.

It can’t actually come back as killjoy. KJ never actually dies, he just gets buried.  Unless of course you put Killjoys upgrade on it.

Somebody above mentioned a lack of models that could destroy terrain.

Perhaps Maurice or Tuco could gain “blow it to hell”?

Remember, as a second master she is already 17 stones.

Unlike most other totems the Voodoo doll does almost nothing on its own. It’s stats are terrible and it’s insignificant.  It’s best action is often to die so Zoraida can summon another doll on a different target.  Any use it has is derived from other models you bring. 

The other totems have useful abilities, and many are not insignificant. 

Besides, Wyrd already increased Zoraida’s cost by the exact price of the totem, 1 SS. 

The argument to increase her cost should not be based on the Voodoo doll. 

I HAVE brought her as a second master, but only when I knew I had to have the card draw because I was facing a crew that forced a lot of discard.  My crew was incredibly small after hiring her.

I don’t feel she needs an increase. She already takes the place of 2-3 other hires.  For 17 SS she SHOULD be a good hire.  If you are paying over 10 for any model it should be good regardless of the rest of the crew.  

Are any of you bringing her to every match? I’m not.  I haven’t really noticed Zoraida spam in the battle reports, but I have not been looking for it either.

If you are actually bringing her every match and winning consistently then you have a valid argument. 

Knight are quite tanky and reasonably costed. They have a useful role to fill.  Which is to say I think they are balanced and dont NEED changes. 

But they are kinda boring.  The spice previously provided by the subtle differences in Thorn, Tooth, and Claw was nice. The Challenges they had before were a lot more interesting. 

I do find myself reaching for Waldgeists first. They have better synergy with cheaper cost, even though knights are more durable and are better damage dealers. 

Again, they don’t need changes, but if I was to make a change it would be to add an inch of reach on their melee weapons. it would really help them with their roll of occupying board space.  Besides, they carry a great sword, a spear, and whips. 

I have been worried for a while that Family has zero defensive tech. And now they can’t even stack focus to give themselves plus twists on defensive duels.  They have triggers for pass tokens that do nothing. 

Any shooting crew with defensive tech or run and gun are going to have an easy game against Perdita.  With no min damage 3 in the crew the Family are going to have trouble putting down melee beaters fast enough.  I am just not sure when I want to take Perdita anymore.

2 hours ago, Saduhem said:

When I play against Dreamer I just cannot stop mobility based schemes. Coppelius, Widow Weaver, and Bandersnatch are always exactly when they want to be. With Bad Dreams, Lead Nightmare, Placing Chompy on a mask, and unburying in my deployment zone, I wouldn't say that Dreamer lacks mobility. If anything, I'd say that's where Dreamer excels, gaining board control and gumming up the opponent in the process.

Dreamer’s crew and Dreamer himself are very good at these schemes. Being incorporeal really helps get bomb markers across the board and away from the other guy. 

I often use Dreamer himself for scheme running after turn 2 because I want my high cards for my engaged models, and with the gun on Twist it’s not as relevant.

7 hours ago, crimzzen said:

Anyone else feel underwhelmed by dreamer in general.  The summoning isn't great and I'm at a loss with what he actually does that's all that great, certainly nothing that's worthy of a master. His zero is decent and I get some mileage out of it but otherwise I think teleporting chompy around is all hes got. I understand that chompy is "free" but I'm not sure 2 mediocre models is worth the master slot. I look at lynch who has a similar hiring condition. Master with a 'free' expensive totem; lynch is a much more useful master imo. He has the same teleport trick and a form of summon while having a host of useful abilities. Huggy may hit slightly less hard but is backed up by a great heal and obey. Both seems to be better than the dreamer/chompy hire.

I feel the same in general, particularly with the gun icon on Twist.  I am apparently in the minority.

The shielded from his zero feels lackluster, although the push itself is great. The problem is to use the Sheilded Dreamer wants to go early in the turn, but the pushes are often better mid to late in the turn.  If sheilded lasted through to the next turn this would not be a problem, but that has implications with other crews.

Because of the relatively short range on Twist and Your Nightmare, Dreamers summons often don’t get place during Dreamers activation.  He walks to maximize (or at least optimize) his zero, he pushes 2-3 somethings with the zero, he summons, he probably walks again to stay out of reach and his activation ends.

So 2 or 3 models moved 2 inches, and your summoned model is not on the table.

It doesn’t feel impactful, even if the 2 inches those models moved were important and you added a 7 SS model to crew (because it’s not on the table).

Apply any 2 of the following and Dreamer would feel more like a master:  Your nightmare should be able to move more than just LCB, Dreamer should be able to place a summoned daydream within 2” of himself, The trigger on the bat should allow a chain activation, or better access to healing.  

A bit off topic, but Pack Mentality cannot be used defensively, and should not have been listed as a defensive ability in one of the above posts.  

It would be great if it was.  But it’s applied during the models activation only. 

I know a lot of people love Bultgunin, but I find them to squishy. Defensive use of pack mentality would make a big difference. 

Sorrows are certainly fragile, but not more so than the average 5ss model (with a few outliers on both ends of the spectrum).  The real problem is that they don’t do enough. 

The damage track is sad. It’s got a trigger to improve it which will never go off because you removed stunned to get the plus twist. It’s glimps ability is a stat 4. So it’s pretty difficult to apply the stunned itself. Movement tricks are great, but it only moves itself and doesn’t do much when it gets there. Since woes are most likely eating stunned constantly it probably moved itself next to another woe, where Misery becomes redundant. 

So the hopelessness trigger is pretty bad. Dump it and give them ping damage for removing stunned. Increase Glimpse to stat5. 

There has been quite a bit of discussion about Killjoy and Aeslin. 

These seem to have resulted in +1 def and a built in crow on Decay for Aeslin. (At least I don’t think the crow has been in all versions.) 

Killjoy has been through several iterations.  The current form is ok now that he gets an activation after sacrificing the other model. Before the demise was bad because you would sac your guy ending his activation and then your opponent would just kill your def4 Killjoy with 4 wounds again.  The barbed in brambles ability is also nice with Inhuman Reflexes.

Overall, the crew is fairly Killy, and it excels in turf war and reckoning. I would prefer other crews for Plant explosives and Idols, but that’s ok- that’s what dreamer and Zoraida are for.

I think the crew as a whole is in a fairly good place, and Titania is a blast to play. 

You didn’t really read my post.  I said the way I reworded it would make it so you could target a master but it wouldn’t do anything if they did.  

As written in the rules you can’t target masters because in the restrictions (italics) it says non masters only. 

If you move the non master part to the effect it means you can target a master, but it won’t do anything. 

Wicked dolls will never survive to turn into Killjoy, unless you hide it in a corner. If you do that Killjoy is unlikely to be relevant again anyway. 

Knights are speed 5. Which is average. The perceived slowness comes from speed 6 Rougarou and speed 6 flying Titania. It’s easy to position so that the faster elements in the crew outpace the average speed guys and then feel unsupported. It’s a shame that the Knights challenge lost the bulk of its lure component, but not the end of the world. 

Waldgeists are speed 4, but they have planted roots to ignore severe terrain, and ambush to get a free push if they are in concealing terrain. With just a little planning with your underbrush markers the push is always free. They heal a point for hanging out in underbrush, and they can attack anyone else in it regardless of range.  Then when you stick Killjoys upgrade on them the underbrush is hazardous.  To me it’s the natural place to put the upgrade.  

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

That's not how actions work in 3e. Costs and restrictions are put separate from the effect of the action.

Kind of a non argument.  It’s no longer a restriction the way I worded it. It’s now an action that has no effect if you choose to target a master.  Before you just couldn’t target the master. 

Either way it’s the obvious intent that obey, regardless of the source, does not work on masters.  And it solves the above issue.

I like:

Titania

Gorar

Killjoy

Rougarou

Knight

Waldgeistx2

Aeslin

Killjoy’s upgrades go on the Waldgeists.  Bultgunin are to fragile to carry them. Besides Waldgeists already want to be standing around in underbrush. If you don’t like Killjoy he becomes another Rougarou or Rider.

If you are taking upgrades Rougarou love inhuman reflexes. I would probably only take pact if I needed the card draw because there was a lot of discard across the board, but that’s me. 

If I dropped something from my list it would be Aeslin or the Knight.

i see. Just move the non master clause to the effect. 

”...Target nonmaster model takes a non  action...”

Zoraida can’t be obeyed. Obey says non-master only.

Didn’t realize it was highlighted. I cut and paste the whole thing, it must be an u fortunate side effect. I will try to correct.

Pandoras crew is somewhat binary in than it depends heavily on terrifying and manipulative. I would not currently run Woes into any Bayou crew because of Inferiority Complex. Put that on first mate and Pandora’s bubble will just pop.

The biggest effect the gun icon has is that it becomes very unlikely that Chompy or Serena can place a buried summon. Both he and Serena have melee attacks that are superior to Twist, except that they don’t place buried summons.  Range is the same as well, since Chompy charges 6 with 2” reach, and Serena channels the melee attack through another nightmare.

Dreamer himself is another matter. He has an alternative ranged WP attack, it just doesn’t  do any damage.  His melee attack is subpar unless he has 2 buried models, which is pretty bad for activation control unless at least one is a Bandersnatch. Regardless, Dreamer does not want to be in melee.  Twist really is his main attack, so the gun significantly limits his damage output.

Suprisingly those are the only 3 models with Twist Reality.  Daydream has a weaker version with a different name. Coppelius has a ranged WP attack that does damage after a lot of set up. Carver can breath fire, but that’s against defense. The rest of the WP attacks in the crew either cause conditions or pushes.

So I guess my question is, why are we making it more difficult to get Dreamers summons placed? It already costs a high card and probably a stone for suit to get a buried, stunned model.

I don’t see the point.

And It is particularly silly that the tyrant named nightmare can’t get a nightmare placed because he or his target is engaged.

Dreamers crew is hard on corps markers.  It’s pretty much Teddy and stitched for scrap, or Serena if you run him out of cards before you kill her.

If you haven’t actually tried it I really think you should give Hodgepodge a shot. Not only does it passively boost speed and healing, but it has a free action with a push and a scheme drop. Finally, one of the trinkets allows interacts while engaged. He turns on Leylines and Search Ruin for you. He also makes plant explosives a bit easier.  He seems to provide what your other Jack posts have been asking for. Besides, I can’t tell you how many times I had Jack at 1 just to have him healed up to 5 or 6.  

It really works better than it looks on paper. I probably wouldn’t have ever recommended it if I hadn’t seen it on the table. We discovered it by accident while playing a smaller point game- he grew it out of the effigy. 

If you’ve tried it and didn’t care for it then fair enough. 

I get your point about in theme models, but My sparring partner often brings Hodgepodge. He’s been surprisingly effective. Usually, Jack has the regeneration trinket and Hodge is within 3 of either Jack, Monty, or both. Jack gets posted in my face and healed to full nearly every turn. I’ve only killed him once.

His list usually looks something like:

Jack, Lady, Monty, Hodgepodge, Hanged, Guilty x2, crooked man or 3rd Guilty. Rarely dead outlaw. Never Drowned, at least not yet.

Sometimes he takes servant of dark power upgrade.

Once I have an upgrade on me he never takes it off. 

I only won when I brought Zoraida. Of note, that was plant explosives and I had several incorporeal models, so I was winning the strat points. The Dreamer is an excellent scheme runner.

Nice report. I don’t usually play Titania into plant Explosives. I am taking a crew that brings incorporeal models.  I take it Titania hit the place trigger on germinate to get away?  Seems like Hooded Rider really paid off in that scheme pool.

Do you always play Resser Jack (as opposed to Outcast Jack)? I certainly get it if you do. 

If not, Have you considered trying Hodgepodge Emmisary with Jack? He works really well with the crew, providing extra movement and both active and passive healing.