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Edegan last won the day on October 8 2018

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  1. EDIT: Didn't see your second post, which brought up the same line I was focusing on. Saying it's limited by model means the target can't be targeted twice, because the Target is where the "Once per" limitation is placed in this case. The full quotation you provide from p.33 implies that these are the same actions, which means the same limitation. If it's "Once per" for use of the action, then each model with the action could do it. But it's "Once per" on the Target, and these are instances of the same action...so no re-targeting.
  2. Has this been cleared by Wyrd? My reading of "This action cannot target the same model more than once per Activation." would be that no model can be hit by any "Issue Command" twice in the same activation. With Changeling "Just Like You", you have two copies of Issue, but it's the same action by title, etc. This is the logic we used in many long conversations about Lucius chains back in CB, and Mason signed off on that.
  3. Edegan

    Lady Justice issue

    No. A) You check only masters, but yet fail to note that pretty much every master hands out conditions at some point (buffing and/or debuffing) if you're using all their abilities. It is less priority for some than others, yet a thing that happens constantly nonetheless. That you fail to mention models like Collodi and Mah Tucket or Lady J (the subject of this thread!!) tells me your check was VERY shallow. B) By leaving out crews, you leave out the fact that every theme has a couple of conditions they regularly apply (to friend and/or foe), barring a few who are truly straight number-focused like Nephilim. Even they have Slows and Distracted and Poison. Sure, Wong himself doesn't do (much) condition stuff, but Wizz-bang loves putting fast and shielded on themselves. C) There are teams that will bury you in mass conditions coming out of every faction. To the point that we had to expand the effectiveness of the Assist action to compensate. Restore Natural Order can flip / dominate games when used at the right time. Not every game, but far more than you imply. Stop ignoring it. I'm leaving the rest of this played-out stat debate alone. EDIT: Sweet Tooth beat me to it while I ranted!
  4. That'l do. @Dark Reaper and his folks had the right of it then and I need to revisit my muscle memory for Luci play. I'd add, this probably is the better way for people not used to using CCG-style "stack" rules. Thanks Matt
  5. I'm glad this was brought up! Calling a judge for clarification @Kyle. Here's the hang up: Triggers like quick reflexes and abilities that react like Finger on the Trigger "generate" new actions that are in addition to whatever else is going on. The action of an Obey or Command is, itself, the target taking an action. Is that a new action generation? If yes, then you apply the queue rule and do triggers between. If no, then you'd apply Step 5 of Resolving actions: "Step 5: Apply Results The model performs the Action’s effects, as stated on the card, in the order they are listed." In this case, resolving the commanded action before resolving the triggers of the command. Then more I think on it with the new (to me) queue text, the less certain I am of the intended order. EDIT for further example: A straight reading of the text would suggest that if I resolve damage of a melee attack before resolving triggers, then I would resolve the commanded action before resolving (command) triggers, because that is the text of the initiating command action.
  6. "Issue Command": ...Target takes a non-bonus action. Trigger: 2" push away from this model. (Trigger has no time stamp so is automatically "After Succeeding") Detailed Timing, pg 38: C.e -- Resolve effects in the order presented on the card... C.f -- Anything that happens after the action is resolved, including ...After Succeeding Triggers. Issue command doesn't give an extra AP for later use, it makes the target take an action as part of the main text of the command action. The result is a nesting that can get messy at times, especially when commanded actions have further action triggers or other side effects from auras, etc. Steps: A) Declare Issue Command / Declare Target / Flip for Issue B) Declare Action (B) on targeted model / Declare target of Action B / Flippy flippy / resolve Action B / resolve Action B Triggers / resolve any actions triggered by Action B in the usual fashion C) Resolve the Issue Command trigger If the Issue Command triggers said "Immediately", then you would resolve them before Action B. This has been our understanding through CB in my meta. HOWEVER, I see new text in the bottom of the timing section (p.38). "If multiple Actions are generated, they are queued and resolved one at a time in the order they were generated (whichever happened first or was listed first on the card). If an Action in a queue generates an Action, that Action happens before moving to the next Action in the queue." It could use better distinction between "Action" and "Action", but may be the source of confusion?
  7. Alas, the trigger comes into effect after the action, so you couldn't push then attack, like 2e Luci. Entourage doesn't work on engaged models. The dropping a marker behind them is still great though! I like the garrote design conceptually as an interesting but not great attack on models that you bring for reasons other than attacking. I have made it work (it CAN be done!) But, really, it's not something to make your Plan A at the hiring stage. And that's okay! Investigators are still great for movement and scheme tricks and maybe Alan got just enough of a nudge to put him back on the table.
  8. I run dual master most of the time in the meta Bluepanther is speaking of. I have 20 ish closed beta games involving multimaster. I enjoy it. I think it is fairly balanced, and I do not feel the loss of ap so much because a second master presents so many opportunities for adding unique abilities I couldn't get with 16 stones of smaller models. I voted for "not in competitive play" because I think the advantages of a second master in counter-play and efficiency outweigh the cons too often. Opponent is condition heavy? Easy, sub in Lady J. This eats up space that mid range models could take. The end result will be less list diversity and certain masters being constantly on the field. People not playing multi-master in an open beta is not the same as it not being a problem. IF every master lost something for being second master (a la summoners, Lucius, and others) then I'd switch my vote to "groovy".
  9. Edegan

    Lady Justice issue

    "The script ignores all trigger, soul stone, nor focus use" Then the numbers produced are meaningless because the game will involve some or all of these things - particularly in the case of a lynch pin trigger like Quick Reflexes. Please do not try to start a new branch of conversation based on a poor simulation design.
  10. But there are rules for auras generated by models. The Vent Steam example falls under those nicely enough. It's just an aura that has to be activated.
  11. This. This sort of situation above is what worries me. Without a box to put these "NCC"s in we open the door to messy complications and belabored text on each NCC. Give it a label and a blurb in the Rulebook and you can say, "NCCs with the same name do not stack." The claim is that conditions have been reduced to a specific handful, but there are actually a number of effects we've just stopped calling Conditions without establishing rules for them. That means these effects rely on the text of the ability itself to hold every disclaimer and explanatory word. That puts a physical (card space) constraint on what can be made in this vein. I'm not losing sleep over this and I don't think the game's broken by it currently. This is a Beta, however, and the problem relates to future-proofing, so I raise the issue.
  12. As the title, is Analyze Weakness a Condition? Per the book and cards, my understanding has been "No". Which would be fine as long as the effect has some category to be defined by. Is it a "Status" of some sort? Clarification, please, as I could see many people assuming it's one way or the other and causing arguments. I asked this back in closed and got no response.
  13. Ahh. Well in that case, I agree 100%! Pathfinders and Austringers are much more interesting!
  14. Just to play the advocate... M.H. vs Pathfinder (who will also cost you 6+1) MH is 2/4/5 with efficient access to Focus. Pathfinder is 2/3/5. Same range (12). Same stat (5). Mix of triggers between them. Pathfinder can get locked out of his rifle by being engaged, yet still unable to attack because the knife is 0". Harder to do to the MH, and if you manage it, he can Focus walk up to you and shoot with + flips. Net?: MH is a better fighter. Obviously, pathfinder does other stuff, too, but so does the MH! You fail to mention Terrorize, which can be valuable in keeping the enemy off your ranged crew or simply out of position. They need to hold the center for a scheme? Push em back. Deliver those bombs? Push em back. Punching Perdita? ... you see where this goes. It's not massive, but it can be put to very good use. Those two mobility tools + Bravado make them very efficient mobile beaters for 6 ss. Pathfinder certainly can't move as well. They have far more mobility efficiency than most of Guild in that price range. I asked what you would drop because these models are roughly in-line, as-is, with other 6 ss models in 3e*. I agree they feel a bit bland, especially compared to what they used to do. That happened to a lot of models in the 2e -> 3e conversion. *Once they figure out the mess that is Tough As Nails.
  15. <shameless friend plug> Third Floor Wars has a nice painting series around the female Domador. I'm right there with you on both points, though I already had it for 2e tricks.
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