TheJoyInGaming

5 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

That was an awesome suggestion and I'm really happy it made it in. Look at that flavor on the trigger name too!!!

I really appreciate Wyrd for taking all of our feedback and applying it to improve the game. They are VERY good about that.

Looks like the War Pig got a little porkier!

3/22 changes were posted. Revenant players should be excited!

Thoughts?!

They finally took the changes for RS!!! Now thats the JOYinGaming!

They helped the rest of Revenants too! Funeral Pyre, Cremation, and Smoldering Heart now Drop Pyre Markers. Reva +1 Health and Draugr +1 Df. Crew should play a lot smoother!

Also excited to see the Studied Opponent changes!

16 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

Even if the RS changed that way, I wouldn’t have him sit by Reva. For me he’s usually plopping corpse markers near things I want to hit, or running schemes across the map. Similarly, my shieldbearers (Which I truly love now) are nowhere near Reva for Take the Hit ( The ability has too high a cost and too small a range to be useful in this crew), and I don’t usually have the card available to discard anyway. If Reva gets threatened, I usually hit whatever that is with a mask and leg it with Mv 7 and unimpeded, or kill corpse candles with feed on grief. If my shieldbearers can’t help Reva, I don’t think the RS can.

That said, I’m one of the guys in the “Reva’s fine” camp. If her survivability really needs to increase, maybe range is the way to go. Instead of buffing her rane directly, she could perhaps summon a corpse candle within 8 instead of 6 maybe,  so she’s more likely to attack from the edge of her range (Assuming a corpse marker is 8ish away).

With my change, RS is so much more flexible though! I agree it would be a waste to just have him camp near Reva. With his ability giving Shielded though he can:

Help with fragile models, ie Reva and Draugr

Make sturdier models even sturdier, ie extra Shielded on Shieldbearers

Make Reva’s range more flexible, ie she can shoot through Shielded models. Even in your example of dropping corpses to better hit somone, RS can give Shielded to give Reva more options.

So this change can help with Reva’s defenses, Draugr’s defenses, RS’s role, and Reva’s attack nodes!

1 minute ago, Paddywhack said:

Agreed, but would 10-12" really break her? That would put her out of most models single action charges, meaning they have to walk then charge to get to her. 

I personally like her as a midfielder. Not only because it is "more fair" but because I don't want too big a discrepancy between the ranges of all her abilities and auras.

I think the simplest solutions, if one is needed, would be to give her 12 wounds OR change the RS as I have suggested in other threads to give out Shielding Once Per Turn at the end of a move.

14 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

It is worth noting that it has a range of 6, meaning you’ve gotta bunch up if you wanna get a lot of effect from it. I rarely see it as a reliable heal for War pigs.

Should an increase to the range of his auras be considered instead then?

Just now, Adran said:

Thats only for the relenting model. The attacker still goes through those steps

Yeah just saw that...

17 minutes ago, Adran said:

Relenting doesn't stop her declaring a trigger. Actually as far as I can see at the moment relenting doesn't stop anyone declaring a trigger...

Unless I am reading things incorrectly, when relenting you skip steps A-D meaning you cannot use soulstones, flip fate cards, cheat fate, or determine the final duel total. You skip straight to declaring triggers. So you cannot obtain the non-built in suit necessary to get the ram trigger to heal four total because you cannot stone for the ram, flip it naturally, or cheat it in.

EDIT: Nevermind, only the resisting model doesn't flip. Reading comprehension is key.

34 minutes ago, Gesuma said:

Healing 4 for a discarded card is pretty good, but it requires her to activate to do that and usually killing crews time it so they get to do the damage at end of the turn and again at start of the turn before she starts. Sure will be an important ini flip, but then healing 4HP should not be enough unless she also gets away and if she "walks" away it is pretty much taking all the turn for that.
Hmm it is not great, but it does help she is has 7 move.

Idk enough about her, but the 12HP still does not seem like much of a change and if Reva players want it, why not. She does not look like a top tier crew atm. or what trick am I missing?

Discarded card, a pass token for the opponent, and an action. You do still get to keep a corpse, and you generate two Pyres.

The healing is also only 3 if you relent, 4 if you don’t and get the trigger.

I do like your suggestion of H2W btw. Seems fitting, I think.

8 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

 

With a ranged master, a close combat fight is coming to you whether you want it to or not (In my experience, Sonnia's in melee at the start of turn 2 at the latest, every game), so the scenario of keeping a bearer on standby neither diminishes his usefulness nor impedes on Reva's ability to play the game. (indeed, what Shieldbearers did for their mounted compatriots) 
Additionally, for as much as pigs heal, Reva can heal more. And control a battlefield better. And contribute to a fight without having to present her face to be mauled. Warpigs actually damage themselves to be relevant, Reva does not. 
I find the arguments compelling for a Warpig, and not compelling for Reva. If you'd like to continue to champion the cause and disagree about Reva's tankiness, do it on the appropriate thread. And what this really comes down to is your fight isn't with the Warpig, it's with me, apparently, and that's okay, feel free, but not on the Warpigs thread. 

 

My fight is not with you. My argument here is not for Reva either.

I am trying to engage each argument critically. As I said above, the arguments for why Reva and the warpigs need an additional wound is similar enough to warrant a deep analysis of each, including the context they fall in. There is nothing wrong with comparing models like this, nor the arguments for their improvement. The survivability of each requires a further investment of resources from the player. Reva can do more on her during her activation to heal, while the warpigs can heal more easily out of activation.

38 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

:^)

Increasing range to 1 inch is nice, but Ulix can't keep up when they start charging. Additionally, while they have access to Sturdy Critters and Go Hog Wild, in practice, it does not hold them up long enough to matter, simply because everything that Ulix or the pigs do is limited by card flips to begin with. I can't guarantee Tusk hits for healing, since Ulix's activation most of his whole hand based on need for suits and saving them for protected on his Df 4 12 wounds (speaking of actually squishy masters with short ranges) leaving critters not as useful as he hopes, and Ulix's healing, while reliable, goes off exactly once for 2 health, potentially mitigating as much damage as the pig did to itself, much less the foe, and no one really attacks pigs in any way other than one at a time. 
So, yeah, I'm saying they need the wound. 

Which may be true. Here you are providing the nuance necessary to determine whether or not actions, triggers , and abilities will actually see enough use of have enough impact to be worth their cost. Yet you don’t do the same for Reva... take for example your repeated assertions about her range and “cheap take the hit minions”:

For Take the Hit to be used it requires proximity to the model you want protected. This means that Reva needs to be within 2” of her Shiedbearers to take advantage of the ability. If she wants to take maximium advantage of her range she is not going to be in close combat with other models, as mechanically this limits her range, meaning the Shieldbearer isn’t going to be in close combat either, even though they are designed as a tanky close combat model. 

So lets assume that the Reva player wants to actually use the Shieldbearer they hired and puts them into close combat as they were designed, but still wants to make use of Take the Hit as you keep mentioning. Again, they need to be within 2” of each other. Meaning Reva is much closer to close combat herself, and can be attacked or engaged by the enemy. It is likely then that she is not taking advantage of her best ranged attack because mechanically it is limited by engagement. 

As you can see the Reva player cannot realistically use both her range and her “cheap take the hit minions” because the models are going to be in two different positions on the battlefield. I haven’t even discussed that to use this ability you need to discard a card.

It seems silly to me then that you ignore a nuanced debate about Reva in the resser forums, yet come here and make the exact same arguments for why you feel warpigs should get more wounds. You cited that battlefield positioning was too difficult, same argument by Reva players, that Ulix’s hand was too stressed, same argument by Reva players, and that realistically opponents are smart enough to focus down the warpig to not give it a chance to heal, same argument by Reva players. 

Your counterpoint about stone usage on both sides doesn’t make much sense either. You claim that Reva’s stone usage for prevention incorporated with the rest of her kit makes her fine, yet you ignore that Ulix can ease the need for suits by stoning for them.

21 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I did, because I don't think she needs it and warpigs do. She has stone use and shielded and take the hit models and range. Warpigs literally need to go base to base for their height of power. Different cases. Mind boggling, right? 

My mind is totally boggled right now. You know, you are totally right. 

We should campaign for them to be part of a keyword that has a master that increases their range, gives plus flips, provides damage reduction, and gives heals. They would totally be worth it then.

1 hour ago, Kharnage said:

I propose that warpigs go to 10 wounds, or gain hard to wound. Not both, but either of these things I think make sense to buff their tankiness in a minimalist enough kind of way to make them worth the cost. It gives them the little-bit-more time they need to actually make use of the healing available to them. 
What's the general opinion of y'all Bayou players on that? I'm just a visiting NB player, so let me know what you think.

Didn’t you just argue against Reva going up in wounds when us Reva players made the exact same argument for why she needed improvement?

2 hours ago, Saduhem said:

 I like the Restless Spirit as it’s the cheapest way to benefit from Blasphemous ritual if you can’t produce your own corpses in Keyword. Being an action on one of our general upgrades, having a cheap-ish way to actually use it is welcome. With Mv 5 and incorporeal, it’s good as a scheme runner too. It can score the second point of Dig Their Graves entirely on his own, and setup the first point. If anything, I’m sad he isn’t versatile. He never disappointed me with Reva. I never, ever used any of his attack actions, but I really just want to walk twice anyway and put the corpse marker in the best position possible. With Mourners, this dude can put  down 2 out of the 3 markers needed for Harness the ley line in one activation. 

The Draugr does get killed very easily.  Even giving gim GST, the regeneration and Juggernaut don’t help because he doesn’t make it to the next activation. Juggernaut on his card has the same problem Archie’s had. Namely, using juggernaut would heal far less than you would have prevented by just using Leap/Draw off flame to get out of there. Both models are greatly defined by their bonus action, having something that competes with it doesn’t offer much help. Archie no longer has that issue, the Draugr still does.

What do you think of my proposed change to RS? Specifically do you think he would be appropriately costed at 4 stones? I like it as it doesn’t interfere with his use as a resource henerating scheme runner. It could also help the Draugr situationally.

Protection from the Grave: Once per turn. When this model ends a move action, you may have target other friendly model within 1" gain the Shielded +1 condition. 

If you don’t mind buying an encounter box the Undying Box is a great purchase.

On the Resser side you get access to Manos, Grave Golem, and Mourners. It also comes with 10 Thunders Minako, Katashiro, and Wanyudo.

Wanyudo and Mourners are all Revenants and good models. Grave Golem is versatile and can throw Reva’s Candles at enemies.

Besides that the Lampads are a good choice for Reva.

Edit: If you don't mind making a single purchase out of keyword now then Anna Lovelace is a good purchase for Reva as well. Adds scheme manipulation, bombs, good auras for denial, card draw (!), and she is a decent mixed attacker. 

Played my final Beta game. Reva vs Misaki rematch. Corrupted Idols. Misaki conceded. Score assumed to be 6-4.

My crew: 

Reva

2 Candles

2 Sbearers

Mourner- Killer Instinct

Lampad

Restless Spirit

Anna

Cache 7

We played with 3 things changed to test last minute fixes.

1. Idols would be placed based on loser of Initiative.
2. Studied Opponent on Anna was worded to be once per activation, after resolving, and would allow you to draw a single card if any suits matched in an opposed duel. Cards drawn: 1
3. Restless Spirit had Protection from the Grave instead of Funeral Pyre. This allowed him to, once per activation, give a target other friendly model Shielded +1 at the end of a move action.

1. This seemed like a big improvement over the winner choosing. Only concern was that summoners may have it a bit easier as they will be giving opponent pass tokens which will make them choose Idol location more often.
2. Opponent didn’t mind the card draw. Made it quick and easy to resolve and the game wasn’t slowed down.
3. Opponent didn’t mind. For me it made the RS’ activation much more interesting as I could give Shielded out to models for protection or for nodes to shoot from. Very fun. Could be redone to Once per turn though.

A lot of discussion has been made about Reva and her survivability. I would recommend doing my proposed changes to the RS as it makes him a 4 stone model worth taking and can be an option to help Reva live a little bit easier.

12 hours ago, 50 SS Enforcer said:

If you could pick a top 6 (let's call them a 6 way tie for first) models to get changed in the faction, what 6 would it be and why?

Mine would be as follows. 

1. Reva- she needs some range, something to stop her from being single activation killed(this could be card draw to help get more shieldbearer take the hits in the game) and possibly something to make her better against burning targets. Also I'm having a hard time getting her totems out with the new needs corpse/pyre markers. Maybe others are too? Can we at least make this at any point in her activation rather than just the start? 

2. Albus von schtook- simple fix, needs some wounds (2-3). Possibly a way to gain soulstones? He uses them quite often, and studied opponent should give you a card.

3. Draugr- needs a wound or 2 dies too fast. Doesn't follow hard to wound formula for extra health for lower defense. Infact why does he have a lower defense? In the lore they are the smartest of all the undead save for molly or other undead masters or undead fae.

4. Yin- I still see no reason to take her ever. It would be great to get a real WP attack with her, and/or an obey. Vampires make you obey.

5. Restless spirit- can he please hand out shielded, please? He is a glorified corpse bot at the moment.

6. Nicodim- his hiring pool is kinda meh, he needs to be able to summon better, he is kinda boring.

Looking forward to seeing what yall come up with. 

As a side note, Jack's crew should be faster.

I’m actually playing a final game right now testing studied opp with the card draw and my recommendation for the RS giving out Shielded within 1” at end of move. RS already feels so much more interesting at 4 stones with it.

Edit: I guess I should provide recommendations, they will be in reverse order though for reasons... Also I consolidated the list into two halves as I feel they all go together.

6- 4. Nicodem and his Keywords- I am extremely confused by not only the choice of models for Nicodem, but also why I would ever choose to field him for mechanical purposes. He is trying to be a half Seamus and half McMourning crew with none of their flair. These two keywords each offer a unique mechanical and thematic approach to playing the game and it feels like Nicodem's crew was thrown together as an afterthought. It also feels like his actions are bland, limited, and boring and I don't know if this is done out of a fear of making him the juggernaut he was towards the end of M2E. 

3. Draugr- I appreciate the idea behind these guys very much, but currently they do not last long enough to make up their stones. They remind me of Hayreddin's initial release in M2E in that he was a glass cannon combat model that was not often hired because he would often die before doing anything of significance. I want to hire the Draugr, but they no longer make my lists as I would rather hire something that will live long enough to impact the game. Please increase their durability by increasing their defense to 5.*

2. Reva- Reva is not unplayable, but feels a bit beneath the curve still, largely due to her fragility. I would recommend increasing her total wounds to 12 to allow her a better chance at being able to stabilize with healing.* Revenants are already finicky enough with juggling Pyres, Shielded, Burning, and corpses without having to worry about her fragility.

1. Restless Spirit- I made the Restless Spirit number 1 because I have talked about him non-stop and I hope readers don't tune out my suggestion because of this. His actions are terrible. Terrorize is circumstantial due to its low stat 4 and Dead Man's Collar is doing nothing. Funeral Pyre is also doing nothing. He is currently designed as a combat model that keys off of a condition that only happens rarely, and only if you hire Vincent, and only if you want punching things instead of shooting. He is also squishy which wouldn't be a problem for a 4 stone model, except his aforementioned design for combat. Revenants already do this in spades!!!

Currently his value lies in 3 things: 1) Walk 5 2) Incorporeal 3) His bonus. That does not feel worth 4 stones, and also does not make for an interesting activation.

My proposal is to remove Funeral Pyre and replace Dead Man's Collar for something weaker. Instead give him the ability Protection from the Grave: Once per turn. When this model ends a move action, you may have target other friendly model within 1" gain the Shielded +1 condition. This would add a lot to the crew. First off, it would help add durability for select models, ie Reva and the Draugr. Second, it would occasionally help with providing attack nodes for Reva. Third, it provides additional value to what he is actually spending his actions on: Walking and Interacting. Fourth, it helps make the crew a little less finicky since their is an additional source of Shielded. Fifth, and finally, it would actually provide interesting decisions for the Reva player during the Restless Spirit's activation, as they will have to decide if, and whom, to give Shielded to for all of the above reasons.

*As a finally caveat, I believe these small tweaks to the Restless Spirit are good enough to make him worth 4 stones, as well as address the divided opinions on Reva's fragility without tweaking her card in any way. Revenant players will have the option to shore up her defenses, but only at the opportunity cost of hiring the Restless Spirit. This should hopefully be a win for everyone as the Restless Spirit has a needed role, Revenant players are happy(er), and opponents' don't have to worry about an unkillable master.

I have one final suggestion to help with Reva's survivability:

What if we change the Restless Spirit. Keep him at 4 stones with his Bonus action, but remove his combat focus since Revenants do that in spades anyways. Instead, give him an ability that reads something like:

Protection from the Grave: Once per Activation. When this model ends a move you may have target other friendly model within 1” gain Shielded +1.

Now there is more protection in the Keyword, not built into Reva's card. The Revenant player now has the choice to increase her odds at survival, albeit at the opportunity cost of hiring the Restless Spirit. It also finally gives the Restless Spirit a competitive niche in his own Keyword as only Vincent can give Shielded out to other models currently. If there are concerns at this being abused we can make it Once per Turn instead.

Let me know your feedback please.

2 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

I guess "Other" can be added in there.

It's really a line added to the card. The other two options are to leave the crew as is, with abilities/triggers/interactions that never actually happen, or look at what's wrong with each individual model and make changes all across.

Given the time left, I'm really in favor of the most parsimonious change.

Have any of the Tormented players actually seen riptide markers on the table interact with undertow? Have you actually gotten any benefit from undertow at all? What about Too Greedy to Die? Has it ever procced in a tormented crew? At gunpoint? Have you seen a Guilty be re-summoned against the same opponent after a couple of games? Have you ever benefitted from Shafted + Malifaux Mining law? 

These questions are not directed to you @TheJoyInGaming, by the way. It's more for the community as a whole. A keyword full of models that get to use their specific tricks once every 6-7 games (if you're lucky).

Having the Guilty treated as an enemy model would remove the "Rube Goldberg" aspect of it entirely. You'd have to bash your own model, but of you wanted to use something, you reliably could.

It sounds like a fun idea, don't get me wrong. The way I imagine it would interact I think it would also avoid the "Shenlong Muscle Team Workout" pitfall from updates past as well.

My only reservation lies in that is a rather unique change that could have some weird unintended side effects. We are near the end of the Beta so my fear is we pull a 2E in the form of Tara or Leveticus, which would both be bad for the game.

Given how people are speaking of Tormented however, they already may be 2E Tara clunky so it may be worth doing anyways...

To bring this discussion around to the Restless Spirit, like I do every week:

I still think he needs something to do other than his bonus action. I still don't see him ever being taken in combat so I don't know why he has an ability that cares about him killing something and an attack action that gets better off of a condition the Revenants only put out on a single model that doesn't want to be engaged.

Why don't we instead give him an ability to that reads something like "Once per activation. When this model ends a move you may have target other friendly model within 1” gain Shielded +1." If we are afraid of this being abused then we can make it Once per Turn instead. Call it Protected From the Grave? I think it would make him worth 4 stones.

Honestly, I would even take this instead of Reva at 12 wounds as it would give him a role needed in the Keyword and give Reva players a way to increase her survivability.

What do you think @matt and @Kyle?

I have time for one more game tomorrow and I’ll test the ideas for RS and Studied Opponent with Reva.

27 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

"When declaring or resolving friendly actions or abilities" - Not sure how that would mean that the Guilty treat enemy models as friendly.
 

Anyway, the crew printing out in its current form would be riskier than this, in my opinion. Currently half the models in keyword aren't doing anything at all. I wish more people had Tested out tormented during Beta. 

I think the problem is that it doesn't read as "other friendly".

This means that the Guilty can consider themselves as enemies when they declare their own Walk Actions, meaning they needn't bother with the Disengage action ever, which means they can always walk away and then drop a scheme marker. 

Your idea sounds interesting and unique. Not sure what to make of it at this time though.

18 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

To be fair speed wise I found it took no more time than asking the standard do you have any triggers built in 

I think it should be one card per duel no opportunity to draw multiple cards

And once per activation 

Keeps it in check but makes it useful when it comes up

Played a game against Misaki as Reva. I hired Anna OOK and played Studied Opponent as your suggestion. The card draw was appreciated and didn’t seem OP.

I have added an additional question for those that would like to further clarify their opinion.