Frisch

6 minutes ago, Justin said:

Just because I'm sure there will be more posts like this (why fix this when X is still broken?) I'll make some brief comments here, and I hope I can explain it to your satisfaction.

A Master (or any model) being too powerful is always going to be more detrimental to the game than a model being under powered. The heart of any game is choice. Players should feel like they have a wide range of choices, and that those choices matter in terms of winning the game. If a model is under powered, only one choice has been taken away (the choice of using the under powered model to achieve maximum effect). If a model is over powered, it takes away every single other choice other than itself. As such, over powered models will always be a bigger concern and be the targets for things like errata.

This isn't to say that I think the models you mentioned are under powered (Yan Lo, in particular, I think is better than people give him credit for), simply explaining why "too powerful" is far more likely to be the target of errata than "not powerful enough." And we never know what the future holds, as new models and upgrades are released the meta changes certain models may come into favor again.

As to your other point about other models you think are too powerful, balance exists on a spectrum. It will never be completely perfect. Since we can't cost models at fractions of Soulstones (and because we are not perfect) sometimes some models are slightly better or worse than others. If our goal was to make every single model perfectly and completely balanced, we would never leave playtest and the game would have no consistency. Instead the goal is to make sure that balance is as close as we can get it to perfect and that every model has a place in a game (whether it's just with a certain Master or when certain schemes, etc, are available is sometimes the case). Often times a slight lack of balance may be due to models existing on a spectrum (maybe one model is an obvious choice in a vacuum, but all of a sudden it has a lot of competition if you need a scheme runner). And other times it is simply due to your own personal opinion (we all have our favorites).

Hope that helps explain things.

 

Thank you, Justin.
I do understand why you are errata'ing things, and I can even see why you chose to errata these specific things. That does not mean I agree with the changed models claimed potency.

I would like to thank you though; Thank you for explaining not just your design choices, but also for stopping potentially angered rants and whines (like mine) in their infancy through patient explaining.
I do believe you guys are doing a very good job with this game and I love it -- if I didn't I wouldn't even have cared to post.

3 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

I feel like Lucius is already being addressed (what he needs most is efficient Minions and solid beaters to back them up). I never had problems with him in Neverborn after I figured out what he wanted to do - he is actually my strongest master there. In Guild he felt very weak to me, but with the new minion choices he is going to be so fun... Yan Lo on the other hand never clicked with me quite as well in the end but some people swear by his name, so he might not be as bad? Can't say for sure.
Having Rats perform at their best in Hamelin's lists is quite flavorful - he IS the rat king after all. They are still available for summoning in other lists, but the combo is not as foolproof anymore.
Overall the changes sound quite good in terms of balancing, our local Levi player agreed to that just now. Hope these changes do not turn people away from playing Levi and his creepy rag-tag crew of undead/constructs...

The changes are fine, as I said. I simply want some changes to the bottom of the pile as well. Levi will be fine, and re-instating Hamelin as the rat king is A-OK by me.

However; Lucius needs more than just minions. Most of his abilities require high cards and suits or forcing your own guys to take tests. Most of the other masters (in both factions) are more reliably doing what they are supposed to. He is definitely better in Neverborn than in Guild in my opinion, but from a competitive stand-point he cannot compete with Lilith, Dreamer or 'Dora I find. If my opponent declares Guild or Neverborn and I then see Lucius across the table I am relieved.

Don't get me wrong; I like Lucius. Like a lot. But that is from a fluff perspective and a gameplay perspective, but I do not find him competetive. Adding minions to the mix is not going to fix him, as any sufficiently good minion for Lucius is a similarly good minion for every other master in the faction. And any sufficiently good minion in Guild will be hired by McCabe and reactivated until hot-fixed.
I have high hopes for the upcoming Faeries for Neverborn, but time will tell.
I still think the best idea would be to errata the Wp required to pass Lucius' horror duel and the damage of Devil's Deal.

I don't mind the changes much; Levi will be fine, but different. Hamelin received a 'boost' in the way that he is now the only one to employ the true rat engine; Fine. I never saw either of those as a problem, and I have played both as Levi and against Levi quite a lot, and against the rat engine a couple of times without problem.
To be honest; I found they forced the opponent to think out side their comfort zone which is a good thing.

However, the errata is in - the change is done - and the game will go on and still be good.

It does require a follow up question;
When will you fix the masters *under* the power curve? Lucius and Yan Lo are quite underperforming at events, especially our poor secretary. If you are willing to start hot-fixing models like this, then give these guys some love.
And how about the Ca8 Belles that, if I remember correctly Justin himself said he would have liked to change to Ca7, when will they be changed?

I love this game, and I like the openness of the design-decisions, so it is hard to be properly furious, but I simply believe there were more important issues to fix than these.

edit: I forgot about Tara; A master who has been 'fixed' so many times by alternative means. 'Free' upgrades added to her themed guys, extra henchmen to fit her theme and fix her... twice. Why not just give her the change Tara players are asking for, and merge one or two of her upgrades unto her card? 
Play experience should extend beyond the competitive environment, which means fixing all masters, not just the once at the top of the curve.

Hi Joel, please sign me up for the Saturday event.
Thank you

While I agree she seems very hard to get to work I can see one thing working heavily in her favour; In games with Karina her soon-to-be buried summons will stop both Karina from summoning more and Tara from burying models. 
The Scion does help mitigate this.

I tend to take all three cursed upgrades as well. However limited my experience with Jack Daw might be, I often find myself wondering whether Guilloutine Injustice is more than a huge trap. Even if I am not taking another upgrade on Jack, I often want to leave it out to prevent myself getting carried away by it;

What it does: Killing off an enemy minion or peon

How it does that: On the enemy's terms

Basically, if the target model is critical for you to remove, you want the choice to be yours, not your opponent's. Is the minion in a position to score interference to swing the game, I am sure your opponent will have saved the cards for it. I know this might have weakened her control over all other duels during the turn, but the mere threat could equally well have allowed your opponent to keep a mediocre hand, knowing she would have to discard anyway, instead of spending a soul stone to improve her hand. Problem is; the choice is not yours.

If the target model is not critical to remove, you just spend AP from your master applying a condition to the target, maybe even putting Jackie Boy in an awkward position to do so. Your opponent will let the minion die and spend her cards ruining your day instead.

The only thing I currently consider Guilloutine Injustice for is giving Tormented to your own non-minion, non-peon models. This way Jackie can distribute permanent tormented to two models using just a single The Guilty (which I find a mainstay).

All that being said, there are definitely scheme pools and strategies out there, whose combination is so minion-centric that Guilloutine Injustice can be used offensively to some extend, I just do not rate it as high as the other Injustices in most scenarios.

The rankings most go on; PM sent

Thank you for doing such a great job so far.

It really comes down to strategy and schemes. Playing squatters rights with Waltgeists is amazing for any Neverborn master.
Their huge Ml range when against terrain (remember: any severe terrain), makes them very good at locking down opponents pieces and they are fairly hardy.

Do they hit as hard as an Illuminated? No
Can they lure or give you some ranged Brilliance like the beckoner? No

They can give you some really tough models (Armour +2, Camouflage, 7 wounds) that hold a position very well, and sometimes that is just what you need.

They also provide some cover, which helps a lot against some crews and gives the option of rooting enemies in place which can be a game winner.

As with most Neverborn minions it is not about whether they play well with a given master (they almost always do), it is more about whether they can help you with the strategies and schemes at hand.

I would love to join in on the fun

@ Verdeloth

As far as I know, you add all the positive and negative flips up as you would normally, and then invert them.
For example, if your Moon Shinobi tied its attack flip versus my Hard To Wound model, you would normally flip damage at triple negative. Since you are a drunken bugger, it would become triple positive instead.

If your brewmaster swills your Shinobis, that would turn into positive flips as well

I don't think you need performers as such. They add some interesting possibilities, but they are not a no-brainer as far as I can tell. Mind you, I still haven't actually played the guy, so I may be wrong.

edit: added performer comment

@ Carcosa

Thank you for elaborating. It makes sense, thinking about them like that, I was merely hoping there was a trick for lingering Brilliance that I had somehow missed.

Man can dream... man can dream.

 

Point 3: Brilliance

Brilliance affects your move tricks, your upgrades, your damage output with the Illuminated, your healing (to a degree) and your board control via preventing scheme drops. To say it is irrelevant is a bit narrow. Lynch spreads it for the next turn, beckoners and Illuminated spread for the current turn. Can you play without brilliance? Yes, of course you can, but you are building a different kind of crew without it.

 

How does Lynch spread it for the next turn. As far as I know, all his abilities read 'until end of turn'. The only lingering Brilliance I can see is Huggy's trigger and the Aura of the Beckoners.

I found myself in a similar position to the original poster. I have had some success running Lynch, but I just found him to be a bit bland. I don't think Lynch is to blame, I just prefer a much more direct playstyle (Pandora, Lilith, or Levy for example). I still play Lynch once in a while and he is an interesting break from the pace of my other masters.

I love all these crazy ideas.

I really need to get Levi and friends painted up so I can start trying some of them out.

I realize they may be neither good nor effective, but they do sound like fun!

On a plane passing the time thinking up strange Malifaux combinations got me to the following scenario:

We all know the classic Ramos opener; Electrical Creation activates, takes damage an moves. Joss or Ramos kills it through Magnetism or Joss' attack. Ramos turns resulting scrap into a revolting amount of spiders. The opponent despairs.

Using the Pariah of Iron, Leveticus can achieve something similar by using:
Leveticus - Pariah of Iron, From Ash
Rusty Alice - From the Aether

Joss

Electrical Creation

<Further upgrades and models to taste>

The plan:

Electrical Creation activates, takes damage, moves forward. Joss takes a single move action and kills the electrical creation with is shooting attack (generating 2 scrap iirc). Rusty Alice double walks into position and uses From the Aether to generate a scrap marker. Leveticus activates and turns the scrap into abominations.
Potentially a gain of 3 models at the cost of 1 and a potentially strong start - letting you out-activate the opponent early on, even if bringing an expensive crew.

The range of Transfigure is rather abysmal, if memory serves, so it will most likely be better to just summon to abominations from the scrap dropped by the Electrical creation, instead of clustering the entire crew too much. The crew alice generated can be turned into an abomination next turn by either her or Levi.

I cannot remember the TN of Transfigure or any suit requirements - and I do not have my cards handy - but have any of you tried this setup, and if so; was it any good?

Even if Transfigure is more expensive than I remember the setup of Levi, Alice, Joss is not bad by itself, so adding the Electrical Creation for the chance of an explosive start could be interesting?

The internet left me at a crucial time. Could I get added to the 'reserves' list, please?

Now; to arrange enough 'accidents' to get me in...

I see the Performer with Zoraida, especially with a nurse for insane 'expunge' damage, but why particularly Pandora?

I would love to join. I have a partner, but I don't know his nick on these forums -- I am sure he won't mind us calling him Skuldbøl for now.
Very much looking forward to the doubles experience of Malifaux.

I am definately going to try them out again, but one thing I want to thank you guys for:
pointing out that I have been playing the game wrong!

I was sure, that if I did not meet a TN of a skill, I had to cheat it immediately. It makes a *huge* difference, if the opponent might have to cheat first.

Thank you for setting me straight in that regard.

I am still not 100% convinced of the girls' awesomeness, but I want to try them out now

Again: Thanks.

Thank you all for your quick replies.

I tried searching the forums, but apparently my search-fu skill is rather low. I am sorry about that.

Aaron: You raise an interesting point about what a 'good' statistic is. I agree that having the upper hand in duels, which even beckoners do, is a good thing. However I still do not believe Ca6 is 'good'. It might be better than I expect, but I have never had it working for me.

Mister Shine: I believe that 'unreliable' is a matter of preference. Having to flip a 6 (any suit) for lure to go off before even considering beating your opponents flip means that 5 cards in each suit is useless as top-decking. This makes for 21 cards (including the black joker) of a 54 cards deck, which is 38% chance of immediate failure (or cheating) or the other way around: 62% chance of success before considering the opposed duel involved. I do not regard this as reliable. It is acceptable, but I do not like those odds.
Returning to Aarons point, I agree that Belles being at +3 against most opponents in the opposed duel is good, but in my world it is their 76% chance of getting to that duel in the first place (without having to cheat up front) that makes them crazy.

Dirial: You are right. I was sure the interaction denial was a 6" aura on brilliant models. Had to read the card twice to realize my mistake. This makes the fine ladies much more interesting for some schemes.

I will give the other thread a proper read through. Hopefully there will be some pointers that will make the girls useful on the battlefield - even in my hands.

Every once in a while a thread pops up asking 'where do I go from here using master XX' or 'which Y models do you consider vital to your plans' - and in almost 100% of the threads the beckoners receive a lot of love.

I will gladly admit that I feel they are a bit overrated. A price tag of 7 stones should always cause you to re-think if the model is truly worth bringing, and everytime I re-evaluate the beckoner I see nothing but a fragile little lady.

Yes, she has lure - which both speeds up her friends and messes with the opponents plans. This ability is extremely potent, as anyone facing Rotten Belles will soon learn. However the Belles are cheaper (iirc) and - most importantly - has +2 Ca. These +2 Ca make the difference between 'reliable' and 'I hope my opponent let this one through'. I find that the beckoners are much more card intensive and at the same time easier to defend against.

Besides lure, the beckoners only function is to hand out drugs (brilliance) which is hardly useful for anyone but Mr Lynch and his friends.

True, the beckoner herself does interact with the brilliance mechanic by, for example, preventing enemies from interacting if close to her, preventing enemies from losing the brilliance characteristic or making it harder for them to hit her. However, all these skills require the beckoner to be close to the enemy - a situation that will quickly result in her being dead.

What I see is a fragile, expensive and unreliable lure with a minor potential for extra features in a very specific crew.

I am aware that comparing two models across factions (as I did with the Belles above) is not always sensible, but I believe that for a dedicated lure model, it makes more sense.

So please, could anyone explain to me why they feel the 7 stones are well spent on beckoners? I want to learn to use these thematically cool miniatures.
Why do you bring them?
Are they worth their stone cost, or are you simply in love with them (and their drugs)?