OhRlyeh

Midnight Stalker:Hidden in Plain Sight

I thought of a really nice way to make Malifaux Child worth hiring. Give him Threaten and Hidden in Plain Sight instead of MS. Its more in theme for MC as well. He just yells "My dad can beat up your dad!" at the other team. I'd pay 3ss for something that hands out adversary and does almost nothing else. I'd also change HiPS to require LoS from the master instead of no-LoS. I never understood how LoS breaks that ability anyway in OC. 

@ShinChan  Idk I am not a fan of Emissary in Hamlin. Hamlin really doesn't need the healing in his crew and Emissary again is another bubble to deal with. I see him as basically a 10 point scheme runner. With MS you really don't need any more scheme support. So as you said, you are spending 12ss for a model and an upgrade  to try and get value out of an 8 point model that is bad in most situations. Loyal rats takes a moderate so you are ditching a high-ish card to draw 2 cards along with using actions. Its just really inefficient. 

Built in trigger would work, and you are right,  lower cost needs to happen either way or just take him out of bandit cause there is no reason for him to be there with 0 synergy with the crew and so many better options for the cost. If there is any model in OC that could use a total overhaul its Benny. 

7 hours ago, S4lt said:

Prospectors are so much more than that. I think the OP was mainly referring to their soulstone generation allowing FM to leap and strike every turn. 

They are great models for detonate the charges because of the different ways they drop scheme markers. Amazing at card draw in a crew that already has access to good card cycling so your hand is often well above average. 

I will always take 1, often 2 in a Zipp crew 

Yup that is true. FM is really stone hungry he generally uses a SS every turn if not more. So with a Prospector you can run a Zipp crew with 3 or 4 ss to start and still get full potential out of FM.
S4lt is right tho, they are just great scheme runners on top of their SS generation.

Well 2(3?) Major US tournaments this year have been won by Tara, so I'd say pretty good. Consensus seems to be that she and Levi are the two strongest masters in OC. Cody is the player who won those tournaments and he talks about his sick Tara strats in this Third Floor Wars podcast episode. There is also an Outcast Player's Discord channel where he discusses some of his tara tech more in depth and other people share their Tara tricks. https://discord.gg/7p4W6N5 <--join there

She does some new really interesting new things. She is the only real summoner in OC and is pretty solid in all the schemes except Reckoning (for obvious reasons) 

I have to respectfully disagree with so much of what you are saying here and how you are advising people to play.

I have been reading this thread with varying degrees of amusement and horror for a while now. I finally decided I should respond because I like Hamelin, I want him to work, I want people to play him and figure him out, I want them to succeed and have a good time and would like Wyrd to make some changes to fix the things that don’t work. Many of the topics here are counter productive to those goals.

 I played Hamelin all through beta. I got in a minimum of 2 games a week through both closed and open stages. Since beta about 1/3rd of my games have been with Hamelin. Through all that experience against competitive players every week, I can assert most of the things you suggesting don’t work. In some cases you are suggesting things that just set anyone interested in Hamlin up for failure... Such as asserting that playing Hamelin is about managing 3 interlocking bubbles...What?!? No! Stop!

Let’s Start with the elephant in the room: The “Benny Engine”

This is not a thing. I know how the cards suggest its supposed to work and I know you really want it to work, but if your opponent is at all competent you will get shut down every time. AP economy in 3E is super important. To get 3 or 4 markers down for Benny to hat so you can get a single rat king costs a minimum of 5 actions (less if you waste stones on hiring rats; more if you need to get into position around terrain) and a 8+ card..... GREAT so now you have 4 markers after you have activated 4 models. Benny activates to turn them into rats… You’re almost there!! Your opponent activates before you can tangle together, uses any number of movement tricks in the game and easily range kills 1 rat. Now all of that work is gone with no pay off. With 1 activation they have wasted the thing you spent almost your entire turn's worth of actions doing. In the mean time they have taken their actions towards their goals. 

That is just one way that the complex Rube Goldberg machine of the “Benny Engine” can be disrupted. It’s not going to happen..stop trying to make it happen. There are so many stronger ways to try to play Hamlin then hanging your whole strategy on Benny; a model for the most part really needs a re-balance to find a reliable place in either of his keywords. He is an 8 point model with no defensive tech, who has to ditch a card when hit to make a rat when hit (should be free or at least on a trigger) He has a decent blade (but if you are engaged with him, he is just dead anyway) and a weakish short range gun. If your opponent knows what they are doing, the moment he sticks his head out to do his thing they remove him from the table with little effort. 

SO, You own Benny, love his model, painted him and really want to get him on the table. I get it. So lets think about how could he possibly work. Since we have been theory crafting for the last 3 pages add some more: Hire models that are going to get scheme markers on the table without wasting actions. Bring in a couple OOK Bandit models with Drop It! (Banditos, Dead Outlaws, Sue) Focus on saving your Books to get the trigger. After a few markers are out, maneuver Benny in and make the rats. Will it work? I don't know. I haven't tried it, but its more efficient than wasting actions and the precise positioning nonsense required to place markers with basic actions. 

Note: This is not an engine. This is generating rats while you are accomplishing other things, which is how you should think about playing the Hamelin crew in general. Hamelin is not a summoner like he was in 2E. He is a late game scaling control master. He does make rats, that can turn into kings, but all of that should be happening while you are laying down blight, killing models, and scoring points. It happens naturally almost without you having to try if you are making the right choices along the way.

Now let’s talk about that other completely garbage model in the crew: The Winged Plague. This is a 4 point scheme runner with no defensive tech and weak attacks. It loses a 1v1 fight against almost any other scheme runner in the game. Sure you get to put a blight on a model when it dies, but who cares. Hamlin has so many ways to get more blight on your opponent than you will ever need. Also if this scheme runner is doing its job, it is off away from the rest of your crew attempting to complete goals. There will probably be no one else near to follow up on that 1 blight you just splattered on that other scheme runner’s face. I tried to make this model work so many times, in so many ways. It is a super cool looking model that is a total waste of points. They need something to bring them in line with other 4pt models and make them worth the hire. Some ideas have been: Armor+1, Incorporeal, concealment aura, or even give me back a SS after they die. Any of those would work. 

Compare the Winged Plague to the Midnight stalker for 8 points. This is a model that gets fast on the opponent’s side of the board. With leap you can reliably make this true before turn 2. So you have a model that has essentially 4 AP, is Manipulative, (which with Hamelin MS is ALWAYS activating last) and a revive every turn! It can do all the work of 2 WPs for the same cost, and kill most scheme runners in less than one activation AND survive till the end of the game. With that comparison I don’t understand why you aren’t tearing up your Winged Plague cards right now.

So what is core Hamelin? 3 models: Nix, Ow and MS. There are a few pools where MS is not necessary but for the most part I take these in 90% of my Hamlin games. That’s it. You don’t NEED anything else. Nix is the best tar pit in the game and OW is nuts for a 5 point model. Hiring in a rat king or 2 is usually a good idea. Putting Servant on one of those kings is a nice touch. Having a rat catcher at the start of the game also is good in scheme heavy pools or if you think you want to keep him close to a murder team to make rats on death. One of the strengths in Hamelin is his crew functions fairly well in doing what it is designed to do with very few SS spent on core models. This leaves A LOT of points available for versatile or OOK hires. Hamlin is a decent option when you want a lot of stones to counter-pick your opponent's master declaration. 

So what other models to choose? I don’t like Hamelin’s crew to rely on functioning in a bubble around him. It leaves you too vulnerable and you have so many models on the table you end up blocking your self in half the time.  I tend to build crews that function in small teams like Sue and a Rat King or Barbaros and Pride. Hamlin tends to stay near Nix or drift around where his Source of Contagion and Bleeding Disease can have the most effect. I always keep one Stolen within agony range, another Stolen one action from Agony range and all three of them safe. OW stays with Hamelin and always out of danger as well. Hamelin protects these squishes until they can defend themselves late game. Sometimes they don't need a lot of protection. With Serene Countenance, Stealth and Manipulative(OW) they can hang right out there in the open against most crews with few repercussions. Be extra careful though if you are facing a crew that gets free focus or +flips. 

One strong path to go is to hire models that force WP duels. You are going to want to run Nix into the faces of your opponents most valuable models. You want Taste of Failure covers as many of the opponents pieces as possible and hold them there. The more WP duels you can force the better. With this Nix stays at full health, covering everything with blight and doing a little damage in the process. No matter how hard your opponent beats on Nix he wont go down if your activation order is right. They have to make the hard choice to sink innumerable AP into him or ignore him. Pride is a Great Choice for feeding Nix with WP duels, as is Marlena Webster. I love MW in Hamlin, not only for Entropic Withering, but also because she is a beast on damage with a 2/4/5 track that ignores H2K and H2W. She is also a great guard piece for your squishes with Soul Tether that can save a clutch rat, or stolen... or really anything else. With all that and a self heal,  she does so much work in a Hamlin crew, it is insane.

The other thing a Hamlin player needs to think about is denial. This is a point you made and I agree with it. Hamlin’s early game is about denying the opponents points and disrupting their plans while your power builds (I don’t agree however that you do this at the expense of scoring your own points. You should be able to do both) Hamlin’s Lure is one of the strongest assets in your tool box. You should always be looking for models that are out of position or trying to score points, make them really out of position and then punish them for it. Pride and Barbaros are both great hires to assist in disruption. Barbaros gives you a second lure, and  2 WP duels to feed Nix. Both of these limit enemy choices. Pride makes your opponent sad by doing what he does and his main attack also feeds Nix. The down side to Pride is he forces bubble again and he needs protection from other models….like **Marlena**.

This article comes up all the time when people discuss competitive play. It is written for M:TG but it applies really well to most PvP strategy games. It says that in every game one player will be the killer and one will be the controller.  It talks about how important it is before the game starts to know if you or your opponent is going to be the killer. If you aren't the killer, you have to be the controller. Obviously the killer will be the one with the most damage potential. Hamlin makes this decision really easy. At the start of the game you are always the controller. Then as the game progresses and blight stacks Hamlin has the potential to become the Killer. You have to reassess your state at the start of every turn and switch to the Killer as soon as you see an opening. This can be complicated if your early game doesn't go as well.  It things go your way, Turns 4 and 5 are pretty obvious. If you have been protecting your stolen and your Wretch they should all be focused and ready to lay down the hurt with 8 attacks that together can kill pretty much anything as long as it has 3 blight. Hamlin and Nix should focus on your opponents more core models with their Bleeding Disease threatening 6-10 damage on a hit. This is where the kings start regularly popping out. I might sac a stolen to make that happen here but only if really necessary. I find that they are way more beneficial alive.

The truth of the matter is that Hamlin is an incredibly difficult master to play. He is below the curve on power for the faction. He has two pretty bad models in his keyword and its hard to find a pool where Hamelin would be my first choice. I have A LOT of games under my belt and I still don’t feel completely confident with him when I bring him out of the case. I have been down a long road with him though and I have found a bunch of things that don’t work. I see so many things mentioned in this thread that are on that list. I hope this helps other people skip the frustrating bit of banging their heads against things that seem like they should work but don’t. Stay away from the "Benny Engine", lock your Winged Plagues in a closet until they get buffed, focus on laying down blight, denial and control. Then one shot everything Bleeding Disease and vomit children.

 

5 hours ago, Zebo said:

Any Bayou Upgrade > any Outcast Upgrade

Lucky > Hodgepodge

Mmm I'm not gonna lie, Pride > any other Crossroad xD

Yes, Outcast has a good versatile scheme runner in Midnight Stalker, but Infamous precisely doesn't need OOK scheme runners, and Gremlin has their own good models. 

And, as is have been said before, if you mostly end hiring a full Gremlin crew, what sense has to make Zipp Outcast? For the pleasure of having crappy Upgrades? 

I think your value metrics are a little off here

Bayou Upgrades are better, but for the most part OC performs well without them. Most OC players only buy an upgrade if they have an extra 2 stones that aren't better spent elsewhere. That said, Wanted Criminal is pretty great on a skeeter especially if you are also trying to score Deliver. 

Lucky Emmesary may be better than the Hodgepodge, but why would I want to hire a model that can't keep up with Zipp's crew? Those stones are better spent elsewhere.

I'd say usually 50-60% of my stones are spent on infamous models. The rest are spent on versitile and ook models. There are so many strong options in OC. 

• Prospectors are amazing with First Mate to feed his Leap/Strike every single turn. I almost always take FM and I never take him without a prospector. 
• Ashes and Dust is incredible with Zipp. With a 7" incorporeal move he can be anywhere zipp needs him to be with the rest of the crew. 
• Skeeters can fly around Sue or Hans for ridiculous ranged murder if you need it. Sue (or a Dead Outlaw) can also make tons of scheme markers for Mancha to bash people's heads into. 
• MS is great if you want to spend all your other stones on beaters for a murder. He can  take care of all your scheming needs single-handed. 
• Gracie and Barboros with zipp is one of the meanest Claim Jump combos I have ever played. 

tldr: I'd say Zipp is top 3 for strongest masters in OC behind Tara and Levi for his speed, versatility and killing power. IDK if he is better in either faction but he sure as hell is strong in OC. 

Will be using GG0 https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54fe412ce4b0c449f7369857/t/5db9d54e3c4f652f768d593c/1572459855510/GG_Season_0.pdf

Tournament Scheme Pool:

Game 1: https://m3e.page.link/3H66Qczn5GMdTQmK6

Game 2: https://m3e.page.link/tE5pjjNe9Pvbw14t7

Game 3: https://m3e.page.link/GtRtskFY7cyvMS4U7

What: "Through The Hole" Tournament will be a 16 player, 50ss Standard 3 round tournament

Where: GameHoleCon In Madison WI

When:  Sunday November 3rd. Sign-ups begin at 9am at the con. 
How: If you would like to pre-reg Message me and I will add you to the list
Wow!: $150 prize pool donated by GameHoleCon, Noble Knight Games and Madison Malifaux Group. Every Player receives gifts and great prizes for placements!! 

2 Weeks to USFT Through The Hole Tournament at GameHole Con in Madison WI.

https://www.gameholecon.com/events/event/1115

Check Out The Prize Pool Donated by the con and Noble Knight Games.

Sign ups start at 9am on Nov 3rd. Msg me if you want to pre-reg!

On 7/21/2019 at 1:31 PM, psychogeek said:

dont try to create the m2e rat engine. It’s gone or at least highly inefficient. It’s a mid-late game crew so it will take patience and time to learn it

All of that is correct. but The number of times WP have been more  useful than spending those stones on literally anything else = 0 😋

On 7/21/2019 at 5:46 AM, Smeagle said:

How are they not? I really like them. Fast, cheap way to get blight onto bunched enemies early. 

Sure if they get close enough to do that before dying... which they don't.  They are cheep but 4ss for a model that does nothing before being removed from the table isn't good value. At best they will get down a scheme marker, get killed by any other 4 pt scheme runner in the game and then have the marker overturned. total value 0pts. If you are buying 2 of them you are wasting 8ss that you could spend on a Stalker that will score you at least 2 points and murder something. if you are only buying 1 of them then just save those SS to use as damage reduction on Nix or Benny who have actual effect on the game.

Calling all Outcast Players!! Join the Outcasts of Malifaux Discord Channel for chats and strats with like minded outlaws!  

https://discord.gg/RcuSuE2

Rules Clarification about upgrades and HH.

1. It says that crews are fixed. Does that include upgrades? Can you decide per match if you want to use an upgrade or extra SS?
2. When determining targets for Vendetta does the cost calculation include upgrades (general question that is probably somewhere else but came up in our last game) 

Does Wyrd have a minimum painting requirement for tournaments at Gencon? If so are these going to be laxed considering people might be getting a bunch of new models at the con before the Tournys?

Yeah self discovery is super important, you are right. I do find however that the only people lauding WP as useful are people who say things like "I'm pretty sure there is a good use for Winged plagues but I've not yet really used them" Theory crafting is fun but isn't really helpful to someone asking for advice on how to make a master work or help correcting their build. That is just leading them to more frustrating games which isn't fun for them. Jesy didn't ask for permission for self discovery, they asked specifically for "insight". Advice from much experience has been given. Take it or leave it. In the end its your game. 

Hamlin is super dense too... His crews cards are chocked full of text, more than most other crews. I just switched over to Tara for a few games and I was like oh... there are only three things on this card.. sweet! There is so much to remember with him and so many ways each model can work in different situations... He is extra hard mode.

TRUTH!  Things are so different now! so many games doing things completely wrong! Imagine what it was like with the rules changing every week. I still make mistakes cause I am remembering a rule from 6 months ago. :D

Benny isn't terrible you are probably  just playing him wrong. He is 100% a support model. I have gotten good use out of him in almost every game. He, Nix and a Rat Catcher are really important pieces in getting Hamlin to work. 

Morgan is right. Charging is a push and must be in a straight line. You can use rats by positioning them correctly and using them for board control.

Rats are a resource now. Hamlin's crew can do a bunch of things with them. Hamlin can explode them for 2 damage and blight in a . He can also activate all of them within 6 and have them each take free focused attacks. (note Yellow Teeth's text with this). Benny can use them for straight damage as a free action, he can turn them into scheme markers. Rat Catchers use them as armor and eat them for health. If you are only thinking about them in terms of attacks, and summoning, your head is still in M2E. It also might be possible you are bringing Hamlin against the wrong opponents. Hamlin doesn't do well against blasts or black blood. Crews that are heavy in that will counter him hard and if you are trying to learn him in that environment, you are going to have a bad day. If they are dying to normal attacks, that actually isn't a bad thing.  You opponent is wasting AP on them instead of your other models. 

 What Morgan says about WP is absolutely true. It obvious what theory crafting says they are supposed to do.....I promise you it doesn't work and you end up wasting 4 SS on each one to MAYBE get a plague marker on a model or two. Hamlin has so many ways to apply markers you don't need to blow SS for that.  WP die to almost any other model in the game in 1 or 2 hits. They have no survivability and no escapes. They just get removed before they can do anything you want them to. Instead of wasting 12SS on models that are "supposed to die" you should spend them on models that are going to have an effect on the game. You can keep banging your head against that wall trying to get Winged Plague to work or you can look at the wall with all the bloody forehead prints left there from Beta and hire something good. 

M3E Hamlin has a really high learning curve and takes much more finesse than in M2E. He does A LOT of things and that makes him pretty versatile but he does have a couple exploitable weaknesses that you have to learn to play around. He might just not be right for your play-style. 

On 6/17/2019 at 10:30 AM, Jesy Blue said:

Thanks for the insight.  Well, I'll try going for a variation on an older crew and see if I can lock everyone down in my own bubble and force the Blight on, see if that works

Soul Stone Cache: 8
[Masters]
 - Hamelin, Leader
[Henchmen]
 - Nix
   + Servant of Dark Powers
 - Montresor
   + Servant of Dark Powers
[Enforcers]
 - Obedient Wretch
 - Malifaux Child
[Minions]
 - Winged Plague
 - Winged Plague
 - Winged Plague
 - Stolen
 - Stolen
 - Stolen

 

The 8 SS looks like almost the only thing you got right with this list.
You are wasting 12 points on Winged Plague. They are garbage, don't hire them ever. That is your first problem.
OW is only useful if you are facing someone that Analyze Weakness is useful against. He is no longer core to the crew. Don't hire him unless the situation arises. That is your second problem.
I don't know what Malifaux Child is trying to do in that crew. I don't know what Montresor is trying to do here either. It looks like you are throwing all of Hamlin's synergy out. He is def not going to work like that. That is your Third problem. 

Take Benny. He is hard to use but he is great if you get the hang of him. Play him and learn a bit. He can summon a rat king on your first 2 turns if you position everything correctly (you need to hire 2 rats to do this) Use some of those SS to keep him alive. After he suffers damage he summons a rat....keep him up and bleeding to make more rats that help spread blight, lock down charges and make kings. Benny is the rat engine in M3E Hamlin and Hamlin needs rats even if you aren't using them to summon. 
Midnight Stalker is absolutely amazing in a Hamlin crew I find him to be an autohire in pretty much every scheme pool. 
Hire a rat catcher, they are amazing now. 

 

I just had a brain dump to someone on this topic in the Outcasts of Malifaux group on facebook if you want to check it out https://www.facebook.com/groups/531907140296338/

It is in the comments of the Are Winged Plagues worth taking in Hamelin? post... spoiler alert... NO!

6 hours ago, stevenlance said:

I need an opinion of Nix, I have cateline box and I love schrodinger miniature ( alt nix). I couldnt play Whith it but I saw in the BattleReports that they dont use him. 

What is wrong in him?

what could you fin only him to make it a great hechman and opition for hamelin?

Nix is amazing. He an Salker are MVP of almost all of my Hamlin games. If ppl aren't using him, they are doing it wrong. 

I think the fact that no one can really agree on if they are strong or weak pretty much means they are balanced and shouldn't be touched further

I don't know. I've been taking one of these regularly for 8ss in either Hamlin or Tara for a while now and they just wreck.

Honestly they were too good. They are so mobile. I rarely got life of crime off, but when I did, it was sick. Their health is a little low but I  save cards to protect them and then they fire back. 5 atk is also a little low but with it hardly matters.

Ill still hire them at 9.