Scorpion0x17

Hmm... Thanks.

Have to say I find this disconnect between story and mechanics a little bothersome. But only a little. LOL.

When I paint a figure I like to understand a bit about their backstory - who they are, what they do, and so on - I like to think this helps me in producing a good paint-job.

Now, my next project is to be Johan, because I think he would fit well in my Kaeris crew.

So, I took a look at his fluff in the main rule book, and, well, I'm a little confused.

The fluff talks of "animosity" between him and the M&SU, and that The Union blames him for sabotage.

So, are the M&SU and Johan friends, or foes?

And just because this is the "Kaeris" page...Pic taken from GAMA today (3/18/2015):

So, what are we looking at in this picture?

Obviously, I see Kaeris, special edition Kaeris, and three Fire Gamin.

But, is that the Firestarter at the front?

And what is behind Kaeris?

And the other models on the same terrace?

Did the iOS update happen?

 

I'm pretty sure my app hasn't updated.

 

(but, is there a way I can check if I have the latest version?)

I use Mei Feng sometimes (she likes Scrap Markers), run a Construct-heavy crew with her (she likes Constructs too (for the same reason she likes Scrap markers)), have 8 Scrap markers, and came close to running out once (but didn't), so will probably order maybe 4 more, next time I order markers from where I get them, just in case.

Ramos box actually comes with 17 cards so it might be even more than 2$ cheaper!

$2.21

Why not? The reason why the generic upgrades aren't in all starter boxes is that it would be too expensive and raise the cost of the box, right?

Well, let us look at the cost per card of the Arsenal Decks that I personally own:

 

Arcanist Wave 1: 61 cards @$8.00 = $0.13 per card.

Arcanist Wave 2: 79 cards @$9.00 = $0.11 per card.

If the Scheme and Strategy cards came with, say, new Starter boxes, then we likely would have such a thread. No one is disputing that the cards are useful, some just see little value in buying them twice. For example, Hell Dorado's new plan is to omit the cards from the blisters and only have a deck that you need to purchase if you want the cards.

Well, maybe that is the better option - to stop including the cards with the models - after all, you don't need them, right - all the cards are in the books - if you need them in card form you can just photocopy them, or buy the arsenal decks and get the added bonus of generic upgrades.

 

And that way no-one loses out - those that buy the decks for the upgrades get the upgrades, those that buy them so they can proxy figures they don't have get to do that, etc, etc.

 

And no-one will have to "buy them twice".

 

Just don't expect your models to get any cheaper.

How about:

 

Ten Thunders, M&SU.

 

Kang (Cache 4)

+ People's Challenge (2)

+ Recalled Training (1)

 

The Firestarter (7)

+ Recalled Training (1)

 

Rail Golem (11)

 

Metal Gamin (4)

Metal Gamin (4)

 

Or:

 

Depending on schemes and strategy.

Would I be correct in thinking that the new players also photocopy the cards in the book not through choice, but through necessity, Mindshred?

The other possibility is that players from his old community are starting to come back, its not like the old communities were small (in a lot of locations they were much larger than the new ones are now). Those older players bridging editions would need to purchase them in order to play M2e.

Let me more fully quote his post...

 

"We have newer players that have done that before they find a crew that they like, or while waiting for our store to get more arsenal decks in stock (they go fast)."

 

Not "old players".

Would it be feasible to paint the body and 'energy' as separate parts and assemble them afterwards?

...waiting for our store to get more arsenal decks in stock (they go fast). 

...this suggests that a lot of new players are finding plenty enough value in the decks, because otherwise they wouldn't keep on selling!

I wonder, is there a similar thread to this in which people claim that the Schemes and Strategies deck is only of value to those that need the players aid and faction schemes? 

Not sure how the Arsenal Decks are being considered the only or even the best method of getting to know the available model pool. The big books contain all the models and rules and even together are much cheaper than the 14 Arsenal Decks and Mini Rule book, leaving more room for model purchases.

I don't believe they are being considered that.

The point I am trying to make, and you seem to be failing to understand, is precisely that we put different values on the decks because we are coming at the game from entirely different places.

 

You may find the most value to be being able to use models you don't have the cards for, but that doesn't mean that everyone else should agree with you.

I find reason A the most valuable, you find reason B the most valuable.

But, neither reason is more important than the other.

 

They are both of equal importance.

It's all relative. If you have very little extra money and that's why you picked Malifaux in the first place, then yeah I can see how it would be expensive. If you've come from other wargames that can easily be two or three times more expensive then Malifaux, then getting those cards is a pittance.

Given the amount of money I've saved by not needing to buy figures to try them out in a game, I consider them a bargain.

Whilst I wouldn't equate reasons 1-4 with 5 personally, you're missing my intention.

 

Each of your 4 points applies to new and old players equally. So following your view that your points are equal to point 5, I'm still getting twice as much use out of them that you are ( I would argue that I actually get much more use out of them due to needing them for 95% of my collection to be useable in a game).

Only if points 1-4 are of equal importance to older and newer players. Which I, personally, feel isn't the case.

Older players have a wealth of knowledge about the game and the characteristics of the models they own that informs their understanding of M2E.

Newer players do not.

For example, when I play a game against the players at my club that have been playing since the first edition there is marked difference in the way we use the cards. They hardly ever check abilities and stats, but I do so almost on every activation.

That would be far more difficult to do without the cards.

The same extends beyond the playing of an individual game - if I'm thinking about a changes to my crew, I will get all the crews cards out, put them side-by-side along with the cards of the models I'm considering.

And that's despite having the big rule book.

Discussions with more experienced players, however, often go along the lines of "have you looked at X, it's got some nice synergies with Y and Z", and I'm thinking "well, I'll have to take your word for that, because yes I looked at it, but I'm not sure where those synergies are, let me go get my cards..."

 

If there wasn't old players with old models and no valid cards there probably wouldn't be arsenal decks. They were created to allow old M1e collections to be used in M2e.

We played for years without arsenal decks, only having cards for models we owned, and the books to see models we didn't own. Points 2, 3, and 4 happened using the books, and whilst the cards are in my mind easier, their absence doesn't prevent them.

That, frankly, is irrelevant. They exist now and when looking at their utility we shouldn't just consider their original intended use, we should consider how they are used by everyone.

 

So I don't view the groups as equal, as group A have also have all the motivations of group B . I also don't see what they would do that would be good for 1 group and bad for another. Although you are now part of both groups as you own old metal models which didn't have the right cards.

That I own metal models is again irrelevant. If I only owned plastic models that all had M2E cards I would still find them just as useful. There main utility for new players is not for those models that they own, but for those that they don't own.

If I had not been able to proxy models I probably wouldn't have bought half the models I have. Heck I may not have even started playing, and instead stuck to painting the figures, which was the primary reason I bought the Kaeris Starter in the first place.

The Arsenal Decks makes it much much easier for new players to get in to the game, and, unless you want Malifaux to be a closed game that only a clique of experienced players play, then that seems like a pretty damn important factor to consider.

My point is that I think my points 1 to 4 are, combined, about as relevant as Adran's point 5.

 

In other words, there are two groups of customers for the Arsenal Decks:

 

A. Players coming from 1st Edition who want updated cards for their existing models.

B. Players new to the game that want cards for a variety of reasons.

 

Elevating one group above the other, or, worse, ignoring one, has the potential to be problematic.

New players get the cards when they buy the minis. The books also have all the cards so they can use them to familiarize themselves with various crews. So why do they need Arsenal decks (other than the generic upgrades)?

It has already been stated several times in this very thread:

1. Not everyone buys the big rule book.

2. Having the cards allows one to more easily plan future purchases.

3. Having the cards allows one to proxy models before purchase.

4. Having the cards makes it easier to find combos and synergies between different models.

And I'm sure other new players have other reasons.

I question the assertion that the arsenal decks are of most value to those that moved from 1st edition to M2E and of little value to new players.

As a new player myself, I love the Arsenal Decks.

 

At first I only purchased the Wave 1 Arcanist Arsenal Deck, but, as I'd also picked up the old metal Kaeris Starter, found it didn't have the cards I needed, so I printed out the Wave 2 cards.

 

I then went on to buy the Mei Feng Starter, the Viktorias Starter, and a few other (mostly Arcanist) models, and so picked up the Ten Thunders and Outcasts Wave 1 Arsenal Decks too.

I've now bought all three Wave 2 Arsenal decks too.

 

And, as I plan to pick up a Guild Starter at some point, I'll get the Wave 1 and Wave 2 Guild Arsenal Decks too.

The value to me is that I can easily flick through my binders to see what models I want to pick up (in fact two of the boxes I've picked up I probably wouldn't have got as quickly as I did had I not had the cards for them), and I have the cards available for anything I want to proxy before buying.

Thanks for doing this Moose.

+1 million to that!

Hmm...

 

Mine were sitting on a window sill, in the middle of the afternoon, iirc, in direct sunlight, in the summer, when I photographed them, so perhaps that makes them look more blue?

 

Or, maybe they're using a different acrylic now.

 

I hope not, as I want to get a few more in matching material.

Looking in this thread I really liked the Cog o' Two stuff. So I hit them up to get some custom markers.

 

The result is awesome. My one complaint is that they went really light on the blue colour. I was hoping (and asking) for the same blue that Scorpion has in his pictures, but I can live with this.

 

There is always a lighthouse

Though yours do look a lot lighter, I suspect they are the same.

It is a very very light blue.

But it's one of those 'depends what light you look at them in, at what angle, and on what background' kind of things.