Ludvig

I think discarding is a requirement for the action but I can't remember exactly where to find proof of that. Passing upgrades: It's in the FAQ that restrictions are only when hiring models, never during the game. You can pass to anyone. Multiple duels from a charge: You can discard for each attack. The box on p 38 "actions causing actions" says that abilities forcing you to do something counts each new action as a separate action, this leads me to assume that abilities you "may" take have the same rules. Hope that helps and that others agree.

As Myyrä says it isn't very clear if damaging and killing are supposed to be interpreted as separate steps with a pause inbetween. While my gut feeling would be inclined to see damage as a separate step from killed, I can't really find it mentioned in the book. If we accept that Abilities have the same timing conditions as triggers, we can use the text there: "After Damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage". Especially that last sentence would point towards interpreting After Damaging and After Killing as occuring at the same time and meaning something like when killing damage is dealt. It could also be to counteract that under damaging it says "immmediately removed" when you reach 0 wounds. It is not explicitly stated but sort of assumed by the calrifying sentence that the two are happening at the same time. If there was a separate moment in time when damage was dealt but before the kill happened then the rulebook could maybe be expected to be more explicit in stating this? I personally think there would be a distinct benefit to stating that there are discreet steps such as: flip damage, apply bonuses to damage, reduce, prevent, apply After Damaging effects, check if model is killed etc. and that these steps could never backtrack. I don't think the rulebook ever states that there is a very rigid timing for start this step/end this step after an action has succeeded. It is also kinda weird that you cannot find "Killed" in the Index or described at any greater length, espcially since many abilities trigger on that timing. It just seems to exist under the "Damage and wounds" heading on p46 if I am not mistaken? My interpretation of the above would be: anything saying killed is really saying "after killing damage is dealt" and times at the same time as After Damaging. In this case the attacker heals (from any abilities/triggers requiring a kill, not just Vic) and after that black blood damages everyone within 1 inch. I think this leads to some wonky stuff that seems counterintuitive but seems to be most according to the rules. Am I missing something?

I was in complete agreement that black blood goes off first since it is a defender trigger, it is also quite specifically mentioned on p. 32 under triggers that are timed After Damaging that: "These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage". I stand corrected. Re-reading p 33 I must confess I misread that last part and thought the damage flip was a part of step 5 which was incorrect and would cause no end to the headache. So step five is only "announce who got the highest total" and then we move on to all the effects of the attack which makes trigger timing as you said. Think I got caught up in the Sonnia-thread and started thinking a lot of things happened during step 5 (which is completely off). Sorry for confusing this situation needlessly.

Not enough likes in the world for that link. Thank you Makrar!

Not sure I agree. Burning (p52) "During the Upkeep Step any model with the Burning Condition suffers an amount of damage equal to the Burning value. The effect is then removed" Damage and wounds (p46) "If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed" According to this, the immediately during the damaging step happens before removing the burning. In fact the model might even be removed without the burning ever being removed, it's just not on the table anymore so it can't have a condition. Also, according to the very discussion we had above the model counts as suffering damage/being currently reduced to 0/burning for the entire duration of resolving triggers and abilities (in case of death during the damaging step) so regardless of timing of immediately and removing burning you would count as burning for an extended period of time while checking for any abilities.

Edited for confusion

Regarding timing (from p46 box) Whenever an ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first. If two Abilities happen at the same time, resolve them in the following order: 1 The acting model resolves its Abilities 2 The defending model (if there is one) resolves its Abilities 3 Any other models controlled by the first player resolves all of their ability effects in any order the first player chooses. 4 Any other models controlled by the Second player resolves all of their ability effects in any order theSecond player chooses. Regarding triggers it's according to mentioned timing in the trigger description and as you said: defender first if simultaneous.

Haha, bad case of posting before thinking-syndrome on my part.

Not being native to english I'll have to accept that I may be reading the ability a bit narrowly. So being reduced is sort of an ongoing thing and the individual timing is irrelevant. Awesome for Sonnia!!! I always thought that the wording "reduced to 0 wounds" was specifically designed to prevent her from doing this exact thing with her own attack since they could easily have used the more common "when killed or sacrificed". Does this mean that a model that is instant-killed by an executioners Bloody Exhibition ("After damaging, immediately kill the target unless it discards two cards or two soulstones") is also considered to reach 0 wounds and is eligible?

I would be super ready to drop this discussion but I can't find the earlier ruling on this. Did Justin state specifically that Sonnias ability should mean killed/sacrificed or that all after damaging triggers can affect things happening during the entire resolve step? I found one thread from January discussing Violation of magic but no response from Justin in that thread. From the FAQ I found this: "Q: When do “After Succeeding” Triggers occur? A: They occur after Step 5 of the Action sequence, so after applying the results of the Action." According to this you should first resolve step 5 completely and then move on to triggers. According to my understanding of this FAQ you first reduce to zero wounds and after that you apply the conditions. My interpretation of the ability is that you get one chance to summon in the exact moment that the model i s reduced to 0 wounds, at that moment you check if the model has burning, it does not have burning, therefore no summon. Then the opportunity passes and you move on to resolving triggers before removing the model, in this case applying burning because you took damage.

Wow, hadn't noticed that there was a debate concerning that, but that's half the fun playing boardgames All the info I can find regardin damage flips is on page 46, am I missing something else related? What is this step 5? I find 5 steps for duels but the damage flip is not a duel, just a flip right? I'm 100% on board with the fact that before the model is removed burning is applied but surely you apply all the damage, use soulstones for prevention and after that determine triggers that depend on damaging? Otherwise you could never use soulstones to prevent killing damage and attackers would also get to use "after damaging"-triggers against someone who prevented all the damage using a soulstone?

Unfortunately for us Sonnia players the ability does not trigger on "removed from play" but "reduced to zero wounds" which happens before the burning is applied so no stalkers unless they were burning before the attack.

Nevermind, my comment solved nothing.

It would really help to know the schemes you flipped to choose from and which ones you chose. After struggling initially to get to graps with the game I can try to give you a few pointers. A lot of the games where I killed more models than my opponent ended in horrible losses which is a very important lesson. Myself I'm still lucky to get a draw but mostly just lose by a single point at this stage so I'm no tactical expert but some thoughts from me: (I realized the first part is very McCabe-centered upon reviewing) With McCabe you can use Luna and 3-4 hounds to succeed in any marker-based scheme or severely outactivate the enemy to control where you fight. On most reasonable boards you can stash away your hounds halfway upfield and just outactivate as pleased, then you run them 14" (extra walk from Luna) each to where they need to be in preparation for the last two turns. Add to that that Cabe himself can push any model 8" by giving it two upgrades for his (0) action and I don't think the slow beaters are so slow. On the subject of McCabe you can use hounds or wastrels with the glowing sabre for insane damage missiles if you need something dead. Enemy scheme-markes make hounds very happy to be able to walk 7 and then (1) charge for 16" of threat from out of LoS before activating! McCabe also has a ridiculous threat range himself. Against Rasputina (I know you can't know beforehand who you face but you can sometimes guess) you can just stack up on riflemen or other high damaging stuff that shoots further than her and take out her mirrors. If you deck out with Dashel you can walk for 1 ap, focus for a zero and also get + to the attack flip within 12", that makes riflemen pretty mean even against someone in cover. Remember to out-acticate with hounds so the enemy must walk up before you activate your own paper dragons. You can also throw in an executioner whenever you think someone is gonna have any sort of annoying def triggers. The executioner has the added bonus of making enemy scheme-markers deadly. If he has 2 markers within double walk distance +3 (11") (or 19" with McCabes pushes) the executioner can walk up and then (0) for double attacks (with trigger suit) and the added bonus of screwing the enemy out of 2 scheme markers. The Judge can get unrelenting leader to make others take actions instead of him (for example a wastrel with the sabre ignoring armour, HTW and HTK and making 3/5/6 dmg by discarding any low card and drawing a new one) and having + to the attack from being close to McCabe with promises. This setup can work wonders in Turf War for example but also against "end activation" since the model isn't activating. Also note that Ruthless ignores Wp duels from models that could otherwise be hard to target. Feeding Teddy one hound per turn and having him distracted/cursed object-ed for the entire game is very VP efficient use of hounds instead of using your master to actually try to hurt him. If you can't outshoot Raspy or are having toruble with any cast-heavy crew you can always try using Sonnia. Take the "no triggers on casts" and "- on all casts when close to witch-hunters". Kill a few gamin, turn 'em into witchlings, get the witchlings close to anyone with a ca-attack, profit! With a handler in the mix witchlings also run schemes pretty decently. Perhaps the best tip to evolve your game is to try not to kill anything all game and take interact-schemes. Take a few models with slow/paralyze and lots of dudes and just distract+defstance in melee-range of your enemies and watch them try to solve the problem. Lucius is really funny with this. He and his totem makes the worst enemy hitters (preferably with low def stats) have double negatives on any attacks against minions or mimics (which happens to be your entire crew!). Using the lawyer to make otherwise puny models with decent defence stats Hard to Kill is also nice in a max-scheme-setup. The lawyer can also be used to make your paper dragons a bit more resilient, again with McCabes armour thrown out you have armour + hard to wound on a model really not supposed to be that tough which can be nice. Really sorry for the wall of text, I hope you got anything useful to try out of this!

Thanks guys, you saved me from doing way to many!

Hey everyone! Mostly been lurkin so far but today I started making some corpse/scrap markers and as I started going I was wondering how many of them you typically use in a game. I started doing 10 markers with corpses on one side and scrap on the other. Being a guild player I don't have any models that use them yet but I figured I would make enough to last if I should pick upp Hoffman and later branch into ressurectionists. I would really appreciate if you share the typical amount needed in your games. Please feel free to share any ridicolous games where you used buttloads of markers too! Cheers! /Ludvig