iamfanboy

Okay.

Don't get me wrong. I WANT lots of models - I love Molly and Kirai's models, stories, and playstyles, I adore the ninja Misaki of the Ten Thunders, and Nellie's reporters are delightful sirens beckoning me to the Guild.

But I've gotta be the responsible Henchman/adult. Filling out my Neverborn and Arcanists first, THEN dipping into Ressers/Outcasts/Guild is the sensible thing to do.

So some things I've been doing:

Set the streets on a diagonal, rather than a perpendicular, line across the board - main street goes from corner to corner, for example. I find that this REALLY helps clear up some crew's issues of hiding from LOS while still allowing the occasional clear lines that other crews rely on.

Have one half be predominately burned-out buildings, while the other side has mostly intact buildings.

Establish one half as the wilderness with woods and water, with smaller shack/western style buildings on the other side.

EDIT: You ninja'd me, gnomezilla!

First off, that list looks really good. The only must buy I'd recommend is Silent Ones as they're the only in-faction, no strings attached heal we get.

Other goodstuff:

Buying a Mechanical Rider along with Metal Gamin for her to summon is also reckoned as fairly good - the extra bodies let you win the "hold table quarters" missions more easily, and she herself is an excellent beater, tank, AND schemer. But she's so common that she also has a big target on her for the first few turns when she's most vulnerable. She can also poop Mannequins, saving you points and still letting you benefit from the Mannequin's Scheme Marker aura distribution.

Arcane Effigy and Johan gives you the ability to remove Conditions - good if you're expecting to see bad things happen.

While I wouldn't say it's a sure thing, Oiran are Showgirls and have a Trigger on one of their attacks that makes the target unable to declare Attacks on Showgirls - I did it to a friend's Peacekeeper two turns in a row and it was hilarious. They also have a Lure for Cassandra to Understudy.

Arcane Emissary is a NASTY beater and does great things for Colette - it's a Scheme Marker for 2 damage! It can (0) teleport to a nearby Scheme Marker!

From there, pick up whatever Master interests you the most, or just stick with Colette - really, she can be played into any Scheme/Strat as long as you pick the right models, and it does look like you're starting with the right ones.

All of the general upgrades from Books 1 and 2 are included.

The question isn't necessarily so much 'works well in either faction' but 'works well for the cheapest, cashwise' and I think that's been answered well: Go Outcasts.

I DO like her in Ressers - Luring with Rotten Belle to allow Tara's group Fast buff on an entire pack of Undead might be one of the corner cases where you actually DON'T want Tara activating first! - but I honestly can't recommend it all that much to my friend, at least not on a budget.

Sandeep comes with only 22ss of models - that's actually fairly low and is deflated by the fact that the big guy (Banasuva) is 0ss, Oh, and that you never pay for your Leader model. Games are Leader + whatever Soulstone value you agree to. Typical Crew boxes go between 30 and 40ss. Deflating it a bit further is that Sandeep can summon the Poison Gamin, meaning that its actual value could go as low as 7ss for Kudra!

But right now, there are two 'standard' formats: 50ss with a Master, and 20ss for Henchman Hardcore (which has other rules: only 4 models including Leader, led by a Henchman, no summoning, and no random VP scenario generation, just one that rewards tanking and one that rewards beating).

The thing about strategy is that at the start of every game, the players generate a Strategy (that both sides are trying to accomplish) and 5 Schemes of which each player picks two and hides them. The Strategy is worth 4 VP total, and each Scheme is worth 3, for a total of 10. AFTER each player does that they put together their Crews, so saying 'basic strategies of the game' is kind of harder than just 'board manipulation, killing models, shooting', because each game is wildly different. Some games you might barely target your opponent's models in a frenzy of dropping Scheme Markers and spreading out, other games you might be trying your hardest to break every skull you can reach - and because there are 5 Schemes to pick 2 from, one player might be dropping Scheme Markers and the other player might be breaking skulls! 

Making it MORE complex is that there are the basic rulebook Schemes/Strats, and each year they put out a revised set with different nuances and that are (sometimes) better balanced. But Schemes and Strats divide into the following categories:

SQUATTING: Your models have to sit within x inches of a given position in order to score. Sometimes it's the center, sometimes it's two points equidistant of the center, sometimes it's table quarters, and there's even a Scheme where you get rewarded for sitting close to the EDGES of the centerline.

KILLING: You kill enemy models and score for it, or avoid getting a model killed to score. Sometimes it's Leaders, sometimes it's Minions, sometimes you even have to arrange for YOUR models to be killed, and sometimes you even have to pick up the Heads afterwards. "Be a dear and fetch that..."

SCHEMING: The only way to score is to drop Scheme Markers - which models do by spending 1 AP if they're not engaged. Sometimes you have to do it close to the center point, sometimes in the enemy deployment zone, sometimes in contact with terrain, and sometimes you get points if you remove a certain number of them under certain conditions, like Springing a Trap on a model. And sometimes other categories also require Scheme Markers as well in order to score.

MARKING: Sometimes you have to mark enemy models in some way by spending 1 AP when close in order to score. Sometimes it's anyone, sometimes it's just Leaders, and sometimes they can remove your marks before you get the chance to score.

So a given collection needs models that can accomplish at least one of these fairly easily, and probably needs to mass maybe 100ss so you've got a decent variety to dip into. The categories are mostly familiar to anyone who's played an MMO (tank, controller, buffer, beater) except for one: Schemers. Schemers are cheap, fast models that usually leverage 0 AP actions to either drop Scheme Markers or move around.

Generally speaking, models can do more than one thing, and the higher their Station the better they are at multitasking - Pandora is a beater and a controller, and moves around fast enough (every time she wins a Wp duel she moves 4") that she can even scheme in a pinch.

It might not make much sense without a few games under your belt, but the Gaining Grounds 2017 has the most recent Scheme/Strat mix, and the basic rulebook (free on drivethruRPG, remember!) has the original ones, which were more complicated because some benefitted by being face up the entire game, and others you could hide, and.... I much prefer the newest ones, where it's "Hide them until you score from them."

EDIT: Yeah, I have gotten shot to pieces on a regular basis by a friend's Gremlin crew, come to think of it, and Guild has a few decent gunline builds... but overall the game feels as though it rewards balanced building.

MY salt?

ME: "Oh, Malifaux has this great story behind it. The characters interact and build on each other so well!"

NEWBIE: "Oh, really? Where can I read it?"

ME: "....It starts in old rulebooks that are out of print. And no collection of the stories alone. There's... a podcast, if you can stand listening to below-average narrators..."

But then, I don't like being read to anyway, so maybe they're really good narrators and I just can't get into it.

And now they're spreading the story about between Through the Breach and The Other Side? Ugh.

It varies from 15ss to 50ss - and even at 50, it's not supposed to take over 90 minutes and usually doesn't take over two hours, provided both players know their rules and don't spend two minutes agonizing over every decision. They also have a variant called "Henchman Hardcore" which is cut down, meant to play in half an hour.

Whereas I've NEVER had a 75pt WM/H game go shorter than 3 hours, and four is a more likely number.

I'm not sure about the Shastar Vidiya Guard, I've never played them, but they do look good at what they do. Yes, any Arcanist master can use them. Wind Gamin and Metal Gamin are a little better than Poison, I think, but Poison will do for a while. I also feel as though Sandeep wants Oxfordian Mages, which are in the M&SU Troubleshooters box.

Solely ranged Crews don't work very well, but some shooting is vital, and all the factions have good ranged attackers. Heck, Sandeep himself is a decent ranged attacker.

Yes, I indeed meant Johan. Not sure how I made THAT mistake - J names, big melee beatsticks, M&SU...

my solution was to MAKE dry erase markers - paint 30mm and 50mm flat bases white and put tape over their surfaces, so I can quickly scrawl out what they are. I also have dual-sided "Corpse/Scrap" markers, and you can print those out from several online resources. The nice thing is that as flat white they really stand out, so it's hard to miss them or mistake them for terrain.

I also made Condition ones out of spare 25mm rounds that I had lying around - that way they don't get confused for Scheme/Strategy markers.

On 3/22/2017 at 10:07 PM, Freman said:

Don't get your models professionally painted. Paint them yourself.

No doubt the professional will do them better, but the other way they're yours.

I disagree. Time equals money. If you don't have time to paint your miniatures, then paying someone to do so is better than spending weeks or months playing with unpainted plastic as well as blaming yourself for "not painting like I should." It's doubly intimidating when staring a whole bunch of models in the mouth, too.

Scheme runners sans peur et sans reproche.

With high speed, a (0) that drops a Scheme Marker regardless of Engagement or other factors (and only costs 3Tomes), and great evasion against ranged attacks, it's equal to any number of Crooligans or Silurids.

It's also no slouch in melee, either, with the ability to hit and run that can only be envied by a lot of other models - hit twice, cheat or flip a Mask for the second one, and push 6" away after combat!

You also might check the pullmyfinger wiki for more info. Generally speaking, it's a good model.

Sandeep is the way to go if you want a Master that can do anything and play into any Scheme or Strategy combo. But I really do like The Valedictorian with him - Lecture Notes can shut down a model heavily, borrowing The Path to Salvation makes her flurry downright frightening, she's bulky and highly mobile, and if there's one thing missing from the Arcanist faction it's models with Terrifying. And can you imagine her with Warding Runes?

4 Sandeep (Unaligned Sage, Command Another Plane, Arcane Reservoir)

12 Valedictorian (Warding Runes, Recharge Soulstone/Imbued Energies)

9 Myranda (Imbued Energies)

15 Oxfordian Mage Trio (what a great band name!)

7 Johan, not JOSS

+3SS

Johan keeps the Oxfordian Mage Trio topped off, removes Conditions, and hits hard against Constructs/Tyrants. Myranda goes for whatever Arcanist Beast you need (Cujo for Scheme Marker removal, Cerberus for damage dealing, Mauler or Rattler for tarpitting) and gets you cards. Sandeep summons Wind Gamin for scheme runners and shares with the OMT. Valedictorian... kills.

But that's just Theoryfaux for me. I still have Neverborn to finish off and then a dip into Ressers before I pick up Sandeep.

4 hours ago, Gloom said:

So would you say that player skill/knowledge of game (rules, models - opponents and their own - tactics, etc.) will turn the tide of battle if you're matched against a Master that has an advantage against your own?

One thing that I love about WM/H is I've seen games where Player-A was out matched/gunned/numbered and at a major disadvantage, but because Player-A knew game mechanics thoroughly, his model's abilities, and his Player-B's model's abilities, he was able to pull a victory out of his proverbial backside.  I don't remember enough about Malifaux 1e, and know nothing about 2e - would you say this game has that element?  Are there Masters, factions, or combinations of models that are 'easy button'?  I am more interested in avoiding anything for myself that is 'easy button.'  I feel I don't learn as much if I already have an advantage.

Thank you for all of your input and information!  You're very helpful.

I would say that Malifaux has MORE of that feeling.

One thing I've noticed about WM/H is that it feels very... well, like fighting games built around massive combos. If a WM player can start his combo, there's little that an opponent can do about it unless by some miracle he flubs. I should have lost a game against an Ashlynn assassination run backed up by that Minion gator, but they missed the vital attacks and it left her in melee of Ol' Rowdy and Styker1. GG. So a lot of the early/middle game feels like you're dancing around, waiting for the moment to land your combo and trying to prevent your opponent's from being as effective as possible, and even if they DO land it and you feel as though you've lost, you still have to wait for twenty minutes while your opponent resolves because he MIGHT falter at some point.

Malifaux is ALWAYS winnable, and there's very little of that 'combo' feeling because momentum shifts back and forth thanks to the alternating activation. I lost a Henchman Hardcore game I played last Wednesday against someone who was playing the game for the second time, but until he won (thanks to a Red Joker flip on damage) we were both influencing the game state and could have achieved victory. At no point did I feel helpless and want to say, "Game over man, game over."

Easy button masters... The Masters tend to be either very simple in their game plan, which can be seen as easy (Pandora wants you in close. Lady Justice wants to turn you into a kebab. Seamus wants to blow your head off with his pistol. Ma Tuckett wants to beat you with her spoon) or have lots of options that let them cover multiple aspects, which can be seen as hard because you're never QUITE sure what the right action is (Who do you loop in with Hoffman first? What's the best Undead to summon for your current boardstate? Who do you Prompt with Colette?)

But you could invert hard/easy trope as well. Seamus may be simple, but he can't summon Crooligans for scheme running or the right Student of () for your opponent's model choices like Nicodem can. Lady Justice may want to turn things into kebabs, but there are Schemes where an opponent gets VPs for having a specific model killed or wants a Master model in close for other reasons - in those game states, Lady J's simplicity is playing into your opponent's hands, but Hoffman can send in his minions to do the job and deny your opponent easy VPs.

I'd say the only real easy button master I've seen, that if I owned I'd drop into any Scheme/Strategy combo, is Sandeep. There is NOTHING he cannot handle on a casual glance - summoning? Melee? Ranged? Support? Durability? - and because he can lend out his Actions he's less AP-starved than some other Masters.

I'm also archiving some of my responses here so that next time I see this topic I can just cut and paste a single post.

Just in thinking about it, the main reason to go Ressers would be Rotten Belles for Lures and Nurses to buff a beastbomb target before burying it - definitely GOOD things, but the Void Wretches are adequate Scheme Runners and so is Tara herself, and also those are not really budget items since they come in Crew boxes.

In theory, I'm trying to help him build a list without spending more than $100 on it... he's deep into Force of Will (the CCG) and Warmachine, so the budget isn't there for him. At least until he admits Malifaux is better than all of them.

So Death Marshals and Scion of the Void. I'm also tempted to recommend Malifaux Child to him as well.

So I like it, and it parallels well with what I was thinking about doing - a shorthand list of model stats so that a player could look at them quick and easily see what a model is capable of. Losing in Malifaux is often determined by lack of knowledge rather than tactics (though the Red Joker flipping on damage multiple times doesn't help!), and something that a player could consult taking up less than a page would help.

Considering how few models there are in the game per faction, a quick 2-page double column list of a faction's models, with one-sentence notations about Enforcers/Minions/Peons and longer notations about the more important models, would be within reason.

One thing that might help is a quick one to three word phrase that sums up a model. Howard Langston, Melee Beater. Silent One, Casting Beater Healer. Colette, Control Buffer. Rail Golem, Melee Tank. Performer, Control Schemer.

59 minutes ago, Pallas4 said:

I really like Tara as outcast for only one thing: "Scramble". With the Reactivate condition it makes Tara REALLY speed. Not Matter of terrain, she can where she wants in one turn. 

I love your Avatar image. Is it your work? Adorable!

From what I am hearing, Outcasts is the best choice for Tara.

1) General upgrades that are better for her

2) Most of her starting crew is Outcasts, so no need to shift budget

3) models that support her playstyle or cover weaknesses are more available.

The main thing I've been saying to people is, "Pick your favorite Master - story, looks, whatever - then pick a secondary Master who covers what the first Master isn't great at."

For instance, Pandora could be played into any of the current Strategies (every year they change the Strategy/Scheme list), but the only one she excels in is Extraction - that's because her basic battle plan is "Sit on an area, then make people hurt themselves when they come into it." A Strategy where they HAVE to come into a given area that she can also be sitting in is beautiful for her. Now, she does just fine in Headhunter (kill models and pick up their heads) or Guard the Stash (two separate flags to score on), mind, but Extraction is an uphill climb for your opponent if you drop her into it.

So, what Masters do really well in the things she doesn't? Well, the Dreamer can summon extra Significant models, as well as push them around, so he's good at Interference (where players are claiming table quarters). Plus, they share a lot of models between them (Lelu & Lilitu are Woes and Nightmares, Insidious Madnesses attack Wp for Pandora and are summonable by the Dreamer, Coppelius is a great beater for both), and the Dreamer's greatest weakness is Casting models that target Willpower, which Pandora sneers at. So, good pair in Theoryfaux.

Now, some Masters are apparently good all around, like Perdita, but it's more a case of... well... if 100% is 'good enough' for a given Strategy then Perdita is at 100-110% at all, whereas Pandora would be 120% on Extraction and 90% on Interference. She's a BIT weaker, but it isn't an auto-lose. You'd just have to play really well.

I'm more than a Peon - I'm a living person! And Soylent Soulstones are made out of people - THEY'RE PEOPLE!

5 minutes ago, Gloom said:

Avatar & Peon ~ thanks so much for the input and links to the resources!

Our names are above our Station.

And you've found one of my rare complaints about Wyrd, but that's what Henchmen are for!

The Wyrd website itself has a lot of the current fluff, with a page of just the Masters themselves. The Malifaux 2e Rulebook has the rules for your current models - Nicodem and Pandora are both in their pages. However, DrivethruRPG also has the basic M2E rules for free. If you don't want to buy the models in box and get the cards that come therein, the book itself is perfectly tournament legal to photocopy from (or buy PDF and print relevant pages!) - or Wargame Vault will print any card from the game for 50 cents apiece and mail them to you. The official (and print on demand) cards are dry erase, so pretty handy. The pullmyfinger wiki has almost all the information up to date, only missing some of the very newest models. If you want to get a look at what the models actually LOOK like (and some hints about how to put them together!) Gmort's Blog is an excellent resource for everything but the latest stuff.

Each faction has models in it that cater to a specific playstyle; it used to be that the only one who really used Scheme Markers heavily was Arcanists/Colette, but that changed last year. So pick the faction you like and find which Master supports your playstyle!

Loosely speaking, the Guild focuses on countering and ranged attacks, the Resurrectionists on summoning and difficult to kill models, the Arcanists on armor and casting attacks, the Neverborn on movement tricks and high-damage melee, the Outcasts on everything but summoning, the Gremlins on swarms and damaging themselves for gain, and the Ten Thunders on stealing other faction's tricks while keeping up a theme of high-precision models. But the generalizations are kinda useless - each faction has summoner Masters, each faction has movement trick models, and so on.

There's a reasonably active Vassal community for Malifaux, so if you want to test the flavor of various Masters, you can do it there. But they'll probably whip ya around for a bit while you get the hang of the game.

I'd say the main change from Malifaux 1e to 2e is that some of a model's given abilities are moved to Upgrade Cards, especially Masters. They made a concerted effort to 'thin down' the models so they'd fit onto a single playing card sized object - while still keeping their flavor - and often made the most powerful abilities they had in 1e exclusive choices between them.

Sandeep is supposed to be really versatile, able to play into a variety of Strategies and Schemes very well, but I can't say that much about him otherwise.

So I have a friend on a serious budget, and he's picked Tara as his only Master - mostly because of the Nothing Beast. Fair enough, says I. But right now I'm trying to counsel him on which direction to go AFTER the box. Death Marshals are an obvious choice (boxin' time), but what's less obvious is what faction he should focus on.

My first instinct is to recommend Outcasts. Things like Sue to protect his Void Wretches, lots of good models to bury (and some that unbury themselves, like Killjoy), and good versatility means that he can easily pick a core of models to support Tara and do what she doesn't. But I don't KNOW Tara or what models fill her gaps, and just looking at her she's got a bit of a resiliency problem. Is that the right call?

The sad thing is that the Poltergeist isn't very reliable. It does interesting things but dies so fast that it never gets much of a chance to do them - even behind Incorporeal 5 wounds melts very fast, particularly because you want it right up in the enemy's face. I'd heartily endorse getting the generic totem for the Neverborn, the Primordial Magic, if you're going to be running a lot of Pandora.

On the other hand (talon?) Nicodem's vulture looks pretty good.

Well, what makes it harder to judge balance is how the game is set up. Because you're not stuck with one Master throughout a tournament regardless of Strategy/Scheme, you're freer to pick the Master best suited to the particular game you're playing.

So overall, it's best for a new player to pick the master they like first, and then get advice on a second master based on what covers its bad Scheme/Strategy matchups. There are a few masters that apparently play well into almost any Strategy, it's true, but they're the exception.

Nice use of old GW CSM bits! I'm less sure about the double planks under his feet, though. Looks okay, but I'm not sure it makes sense. How did you make those, by the way?