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Philosfr

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Posts posted by Philosfr

  1. I don't think we're saying the same thing when we're talking about this. I agree with you that you have to measure vertical distances when you're moving when you take into account your final position. If you end on top of a 9" ledge and you started on a 3" ledge, you would need to fly "up" 6", plus whatever X-Y movement you made.

    You do not have to fly "up" 2" to get over a wall and then "down" 2" to get down the other side of the wall however. We're all agreed here.

    If you don't have to fly "up" to get over a vertical distance and then "down" to land on the other side, why do you have to fall "down" and the fly "up" to ignore a negative vertical distance? It's the same concept, we're just flipping the "up/down" around here.

    Heck, the concept of a flying model flying during it's move already is kind of crazy. I fly up to a 9" building during my first turn. Everyone on the ground is out of my reach. My next turn I can choose to "fall" 9 inches for free. You could use this to get into engagement without "walking", since you would walk forward 1", then fall 9". There's very weird rules interactions if you really tried to manipulate the whole "flying models fall" rule. Not saying it's common or easy, but it would be much cleaner for all the rules if a flying model didn't "fall" during their move action (and needed to land at the end of the move action). Then a model that's 9" up would actually need to fly 9" to reach the ground, instead of falling and not suffering damage.

    I think it's important to remember we're talking about what the rules are and now what they should be or what models real life the best. Weird interactions don't necessarily invalidate a rule, they just mean it was potentially not intended.

    I do see where you're coming from re: flipping up with down, and logic would definitely dictate that in real life, a flying creature would be able to ignore the gap. However, the table itself and empty space are not "terrain" for the purposes of the game, and so the two situations are not equivalent and a model with flying, as written, cannot ignore the empty space. There is also nothing in the rules that allows a model to stand in empty space, so I'd say the model would fall.

    There is also nothing in the rules that says a flying model falls while it is moving. That's the whole reason this has become a debate. The rules don't clearly provide a direction for this. This gives us a few options for interpretation:

    1) We decide that if it's not clearly defined in the rules, then flying works just like walking and flying models fall.

    2) We decide that if it's not clearly defined in the rules, then flying works as we think it should and flying models don't fall during their move.

    3) We look at other rules like the ability to ignore flying up/down over a 5" wall and apply that to other cases where it's 5" vertical the model is moving over, but in this case it's a crevice instead of a wall. We can also apply rules like ending 4" up requires spending 4" of move to get there and saying that ending 4" down requires 4" of move to get down, rather than falling for free.

    I'm not trying to argue for #2, since we already know a flying model can move through a 50" tall object, which I've certainly never seen a real flying thing do (unless incorporeal, which I also haven't ever seen). I'm saying that in this case, we have relevant rules which apply. I'm arguing for #3 because it's basically an inverse to the rules we already have.

  2.  2. Yes, this is literal, you do have to measure vertical distances when moving. However, you can ignore terrain when flying. There is no contradiction here. When on top of a building, you are clearly not ignoring the terrain and so should take vertical distance into account.

    I don't think we're saying the same thing when we're talking about this. I agree with you that you have to measure vertical distances when you're moving when you take into account your final position. If you end on top of a 9" ledge and you started on a 3" ledge, you would need to fly "up" 6", plus whatever X-Y movement you made.

    You do not have to fly "up" 2" to get over a wall and then "down" 2" to get down the other side of the wall however. We're all agreed here.

    If you don't have to fly "up" to get over a vertical distance and then "down" to land on the other side, why do you have to fall "down" and the fly "up" to ignore a negative vertical distance? It's the same concept, we're just flipping the "up/down" around here.

    Heck, the concept of a flying model flying during it's move already is kind of crazy. I fly up to a 9" building during my first turn. Everyone on the ground is out of my reach. My next turn I can choose to "fall" 9 inches for free. You could use this to get into engagement without "walking", since you would walk forward 1", then fall 9". There's very weird rules interactions if you really tried to manipulate the whole "flying models fall" rule. Not saying it's common or easy, but it would be much cleaner for all the rules if a flying model didn't "fall" during their move action (and needed to land at the end of the move action). Then a model that's 9" up would actually need to fly 9" to reach the ground, instead of falling and not suffering damage.

  3. (Faq quotes)

    The FAQ is not definitive, but it reinforces my belief that flying does not "fall" while it's moving. 

    Thank you for quoting!

    I don't agree that it reinforces your position however. I think it points out what I am trying to say:

    "Models which fall, fall immediately" Flying models also fall, they just ignore the damage. 

    Also "Although measurements in Malifaux are generally made from a top down view, vertical distances are measured while moving a model" 

    I think you're not taking the context of either of those two statements.

    1) "Models which fall" could also be interpreted to mean that some models don't fall, such as flying models. This is probably not what they meant, but just pointing out that it's not clear.

    2) "Vertical distances are measured while moving a model" - This is where I think you're not on the right track. If this was literal, then a model could not fly over a 50" building. You'd have to measure the 50" up, then the 50" down in that case. But we already both agree that the rules allow a flying model to fly from one side of a 50" building to the other side if they have enough move to cover the horizontal distance.

  4. So I've been playing with the Scion of Black Blood quite a bit in a campaign recently. I initially grabbed him for some condition removal, but he's never actually served that purpose. Instead he typically runs around with my Mysterious Emissary using the 0 to make it drop scheme markers to turn into Changelings, then acts as my scheme runner interference.

    Last night was a perfect example of this. Lilith vs Kaeris. I certainly wanted SoBB in my list since I know Kaeris loves burning. After a very fun turn 1 Tangle Shadows to put Nekima right into the midst of the enemy crew to pummel Joss, I certainly got the fire. After getting hit with initial fire, I waited to activate Nekima thinking I could get the SoBB up so I could get rid of any burning. Between Kaeris and Firestarter it ended up being 10 burning.

    In the end though, SoBB still didn't come into play. The way the condition removal works is very challenging. A model can only get rid of a condition on the start of its activation, which means enemies can wait until after you activate the hit you with conditions. Plus getting hit with conditions can end up messing with your activation order, forcing you to activate something to get rid of the condition before the enemy takes advantage of it. Finally, it's a pretty small area, an aura so requiring LoS, and it costs 2 cards.

    It's an ability that looks great on paper and is desperately needed in NB (except in Dreamer crews I suppose), but it seems more like luck that SoBB is going to be in the right place at the right time and the activation order and conditions are going to be just right that you can then spend a large amount of resources to cleanse the condition. Anyone else have better luck?

    To me, I'm going to start pretending that ability doesn't exist when determining whether to bring him with or not. Maybe go back to using Johanna instead. I still think SoBB has some neat tricks and his (0) is great, but not for condition removal. 

    • Like 1
  5.  

    The rules basically say that you can fly across something 50" tall as long as you land on the other side but you cannot land on it if you don't have a move stat of 50.

    Since flying ignores terrain but not falling (falling is under movement and not terrain) you can't just measure at the start of the move and subtract even if that would seem like the logical conclusion.

    I would give my eternal gratitude to anyone able to quote the FaQ entry on movement and height since it has relevance to this discussion.

    48) Q: If a model is pushed off of an edge high enough to necessitate a fall, does it fall immediately? Could it be pushed far enough to reach another surface of equal height (assuming there was such a surface)?
    A: Models which fall, fall immediately. The model would be pushed off of the ledge and then immediately fall and take any necessary falling damage upon reaching the ground. Then, if there is any distance left required by the push (and the model is still in play), it will push the remaining distance. (9/1/15)

     

    8) Q: A model with the Incorporeal Ability ignores terrain when it moves. If it is on the ground floor of a building which is 10” tall, can it end its move on top of the building, even if its Wk stat is less than 10, since it ignores the building while moving? Same question for a model with Flight in regards to vertical terrain.
    A: No. Although measurements in Malifaux are generally made from a top down view, vertical distances are measured while moving a model (see pg. 42 of the rulebook, Movement & Terrain). If the model with Incorporeal ends its move on top of the 10” tall building, it would have moved 10” and, unless it has a Wk of 10 or greater, this is not a legal move. However, if the Incorporeal model has a sufficient Wk stat to complete the move, it would be able to end the move on top of the terrain, ignoring the usual rules for climbing, etc. Flight works similarly, except in the case of Enclosed terrain (see Enclosed terrain, rulebook pg. 60). 

    The FAQ is not definitive, but it reinforces my belief that flying does not "fall" while it's moving. 

    • Like 1
  6. I'm pretty sure it's been FaQed that you need to have sufficient movement to fly up to the height you are going for to land.

    That and the fact that flying models ignore falling damage but no other aspects of falling means that you fall to ground level when leaving the first building and need sufficient movement to get back up.

    Your group can of course house rule it otherwise.

    I wasn't all that thrilled with the FAQ about pushes, though I can sorta understand it. I do agree that you need to count vertical distance if you want to land rather than just fly over/through.

    But I really think it's a stretch to apply the FAQ on pushes to flying and if the trend is to do that, it feels like we need another FAQ to address this. Flying is flying. I could buy the pushes because not all pushes are the same. Some pushes represent a model getting thrown, others could be rolling them along the ground or something. Rather than have debate, they all fall, ok.

    But flying? I'd find it extremely bizarre that you can completely ignore a 20" tall building because you have enough fly to get to the other side, but you couldn't ignore a 2" gap between two things...

  7. I am a collector and have scooped up all the factions, all the masters. Of course, I haven't played a lot of it.

    • Neverborn - The faction I was least interested in became my favorite faction in M2E after reading the fluff. I played Lilith extensively last year to practice up for Masters at Adepticon and then am playing Neverborn in two campaigns I have running for the Nythera event. All masters played, but I gravitate towards Lilith and Pandora first, Dreamer and Collodi second.
    • Arcanists - My first faction back before M2E, I played mostly Rasputina and Mei Feng. Tried Marcus and Ramos both a few times and I've gotten Ironsides on the table once. Only played Kaeris when she was just a Henchmen and still haven't had Colette on the table.
    • Ten Thunders - The faction that would have been my first if it had been released when I started playing. Misaki was my favorite master before discovering Neverborn, and I got several games with her. I've had Lynch and McCabe on the table, but not as 10T. Yan Lo I only played in first edition. Still haven't played Brewmaster or Shen Long though.
    • Guild - My least favorite faction, but I've played all of the masters, though only once each during an achievement league. I've played Justice a couple of more times, but that's about it for Guild.
    • Outcasts - The Viks and Tara have been on the table a few times each and Leveticus once, but otherwise not much here. Never tried Hamelin, Von Schill or Jack Daw, and I don't even have them assembled yet (still on the sprue).
    • Ressurectionists - Probably the faction I will get more into after Nythera. I've played Kirai and Molly a couple times, but that's it except for dual-faction masters I've played as other factions. Nicodem interests me, but not had him on the table, while I've never really felt a spark towards Seamus. Got him assembled though, so I'm sure he'll see playtime sometime.
    • Gremlins - Never played with any of the gremlins to date, and nearly all of them except for Ophelia are still on the sprue. I have mixed feelings about these guys... some like Ophelia are appealing, and the fluff on Wong and Mah Tucket made me a big fan, but the silliness of the faction makes it harder to be a fan. They're a little too slapstick for my tastes, which is probably why Ophelia and Brewmaster were really the only ones I cared about until reading more fluff.

    For serious play though, it's really down to Lilith, Pandora, Rasputina, Misaki and Mei Feng. None of the others have been on the table often enough to count.

    • Like 1
  8. I'm going to guess that these may not be the only special edition models. I think I remember a comment about "everyone will get something" (or maybe it was 'something for everyone'?), but it might be this teaser is only showing us half of them. In which case I'm sure they will be purchases... the logistics of 7+ freebies based on purchase price would be mindboggling. Being that there is 3 henchmen here, it might be that there's still 4 more henchmen to be revealed, and the Dr is the bonus.

    Unless we're getting half this sale, then half for some other special event later :)

     

  9. I've been hoping that doctor would be made into a model since her first art came out (and for a way to get Barbaros)!

    Thanks Wyrd!

     

    Now hopefully it will be a spend X, pick 2 of the 4. Spend Y, get all 4 deal.

    I hope that they offer a few currently unreleased things if they continue with that scheme though, some of us already have a lot of stuff (or all of it to be brutally honest). I know, first world problems and all. I'm holding off buying anything this month to try and help with getting to dollar thresholds during Black Friday, but since I overbought at Gencon, even that's only a few things.

  10. Also is it just me or does there seem to be a lot of LGS promotions this past year of the spend x and send in your receipt variety, about 1 every 2 months. I think there have been to many and am curious on why there are so many.

    It is not hard for me to spend 60 on wyrd ever.

    Having a healthy FLGS is very important to the health of a game. If the game isn't sold in stores where people unfamiliar with it can find it, they aren't very likely to pick it up. And it's much harder to convince people it's a healthy game that has enough interest if they can't just walk over to the shelf and point at the cool box they should pick up. Not to mention internet retailers offer heavy competition to a FLGS due to the discounts, so any help they can get is probably appreciated.

    I know I've purchased 99% of my Malifaux stuff online. If there had been more of these in-store promotions when I was first buying, I would have transitioned more of my purchases to my FLGS. Which is sorta the intent.

    I am the opposite, I have seen multiple stores close because of shopping from online vendors so I do 99% of my shopping at one of the LGS near me, often splitting it across those I game at. I generally only order online for Gen Con and Black Friday and try not to order more than I need to for the free mini, prioritizing those models I do not know the release date for or the exclusives.

    Most people will shop for the cheapest, rather than doing it like you do. What you're doing is important, Wyrd is just trying to encourage that. When I first got into Malifaux, I never played at a FLGS and therefore felt no loyalty to them. It was only later when I started playing at the shop that I started spending any money there. Unfortunately I already owned most of the Malifaux stuff released by that point, so it's mostly been limited to paint, glue and things like that.

  11. Also is it just me or does there seem to be a lot of LGS promotions this past year of the spend x and send in your receipt variety, about 1 every 2 months. I think there have been to many and am curious on why there are so many.

    It is not hard for me to spend 60 on wyrd ever.

    Having a healthy FLGS is very important to the health of a game. If the game isn't sold in stores where people unfamiliar with it can find it, they aren't very likely to pick it up. And it's much harder to convince people it's a healthy game that has enough interest if they can't just walk over to the shelf and point at the cool box they should pick up. Not to mention internet retailers offer heavy competition to a FLGS due to the discounts, so any help they can get is probably appreciated.

    I know I've purchased 99% of my Malifaux stuff online. If there had been more of these in-store promotions when I was first buying, I would have transitioned more of my purchases to my FLGS. Which is sorta the intent.

  12. A agree.    Beware that some summoned models when they are summoned by a model that sacrifices itself to summon. When it dies the original model will take a Finish off flip.  Example, Myranda using her Shapechange Action or Coryphee Dance Together into Coryphee Duet.

    At least with things like the Coryphee Duet, when they Dance Together they don't have the injuries that the individual Coryphee had... 

  13. It was mostly the 33% non-Wyrd that I was questioning. I did use some manufactured components along with some greenstuff. But I didn't know if the 33% was total volume, or if the 33% was parts. i.e. if there was a tripod character and I replaced one of the tripods, that would be 33% and legit. But what if I used an over-sized piece for that tripod that was bigger than the other two? It's still only 1/3 of the tripod that is custom, but it now makes up more than 1/3 of the total model volume.

    I know... probably overly picky. These are 100% recognizable since the head, body and pose (for the most part) are the same and they are all on legal bases, so I should be good in most places and my local TO certainly approved it already. I just am new to conversions so I thought I'd ask :)

  14. I understand that it's normally up to the TO, prior approval, etc and all that whether a conversion is acceptable or not, I'm specifically asking about the Wyrd official tournament rules. When a model needs to be X% Wyrd, is that total mass of the model or how is the % determined?

    For example, take a model like Kaeris. If she was given different wings and sword instead of her flame, but everything else was Kaeris, would that count per the official rules? And does it matter how large the wings and sword is? If I gave her an anime style sword that was too big for her to realistically hold, or gave her outsized wings (itty bitty nubs or giant glorious dragon wings), does that change the %?

    I won't reveal any details or the model I'm actually converting per the Halloween contest rules, but I'm happy enough with one of my conversions that I'd love to use it as my standard model in this case. I can always bring both the converted version I have and the original version in case there's an issue, but just trying to figure it out for future reference. Thanks

  15. Putting a local tactica in each faction on here will still have people asking questions already answered in the tactica. That's what humans do. 

    Why do the work of looking for it yourself if you can just ask and get told the answer? :P

    I have mixed feelings about raising dead threads. I don't especially like it, but on the other hand, seeing someone start up a new thread about XYZ topic for the third time in as many months would also get complained about. So I let bygones be bygones and just deal with the necromancy or the repetitiveness and read on :)

    • Like 2
  16. I don't think I've ever hired more than one. They are fun models, but we have so many other expensive fun models to bring. I rarely bring multiple of anything in most of my lists for that reason. If I have Widow Weaver and Handbag though, I'll always make sure I have at least one spare teddy with for summoning. I still haven't picked up the new plastic teddy, but I have an old metal teddy, a nightmare teddy and two Miss Ery's for when I need them.

  17. I've never done any modification or customization of miniatures before, but had been inspired by the upcoming Halloween to make a "halloween" version of one of my crews to play at our FLGS that week. I'm excited to get home because most of the raw materials are supposed to be sitting in my mailbox right now per the tracking number.

    If I "halloweened" a standard Malifaux crew, is that eligible for this? Not that my painting will win me any awards, I'm still fairly novice when it comes to that. Besides, like I said, first attempt at modifying miniatures. But I think entering it would get me good feedback and make sure I actually get it finished :)

  18.  I try to only gamble for cards if my opponent has cards left though. It's too worth it for them to cheat high cards in otherwise, they won't likely save them for something else.

    Can you explain this? It seems like you're saying two different things here. Do you gamble for cards when your opponent HAS or does NOT HAVE a hand?

    Sorry. I meant if my opponent has a handful of cards, I will gamble for cards and not risk it. If they have a high card in their hand, they are nearly certainly going to cheat it in to win vs a Stitched otherwise. I'll gamble for cards and try to get the right suits to make them discard, or get high cards into my hand. Only then do I gamble for life.

    Of course, there are times where you are desperate, reckless or the stitched are expendable. Then I'm far more willing to take the gamble, but that usually means I'm already winning and it doesn't matter, or it means I'm losing badly and I need to take risks to even up the odds.

  19. I personally have used them with Widow Weaver and Vasilisa mostly. Vasilisa can help move them into position and Obey them. Widow Weaver to debuff Wp. My best luck is when I can get my opponent to use their best cards early. Some of that might be the Wp attack from the Stitched gambling for cards. Others might be terror checks. Regardless, get them to lose about half their hand while hopefully using Stitched to card cycle some high cards.

    I nearly never gamble for life unless I have the the cards in my hand to solidly beat my opponent. But since that can be helped along by gambling for cards, that's not usually too challenging.

    I'll also gamble for life if neither of us have cards and my Stitched has more than 1 life left. Then it really is gambling, but I feel the deck is stacked in my favor. If I lose, I reactivate and try it again. If I win, I win. 

    I try to only gamble for cards if my opponent has cards left though. It's too worth it for them to cheat high cards in otherwise, they won't likely save them for something else.

  20. In addition, the game where you kill the schmidt out of Nekima or Killjoy with a Changeling that succeeded to mimic them is going to be a game to remember forever :P In my head and in theorycraft, at least.

    One of my changelings murdered The Captain with a red joker mimic'ing his own relic hammer last game. It was glorious and certainly memorable.

    • Like 2
  21. Mr. Tannen is great with Lilith because the +2 masks helps get off Tangle Shadows, and if you keep him near Lilith, prevents opponents from delivering the message or distracting or cheating cards against all of Liliths attacks (and/or fears given form)

     

    I had missed that trick with Tannen also.  Even though it only helps if you have the mask to play rather than stoning it's still good to know! I also tend to take Graves with Lilith so this would also let you exploit their interactions. 

    Yeah, I've always left Tannen home, though I frequently grab Graves. I may have to take another look at him.

  22. Sheesh... events like Sandstorm are completely broken for certain models like Rasputina and Lilith if that is the case. There's zero safety from Rasputina's paralyze (wait? is hers the one that is in base contact with terrain, or am I thinking of someone else?). The mere act of Lilith manifesting her Avatar in a campaign game will damage the whole enemy crew, not even considering the fact that her Avatar makes it hazardous as well. I already assumed these events would act as a big bonus for models like Waldgeist, but not that much.

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