Philosfr

This looks like a complete lack of consensus to me, which is probably because we just got our Nekima and Hungering Darkness

• Changelings - I'd love to see more Emissary style changelings as well. "Freshly born" ones. I tend to summon them, and it looks weird to have the school kids show up.
• Lilith - Because she's awesome. I already have 5+ copies of the old metal sculpt since it is my favorite, but an updated one would be awseome
• Titania - Unlikely since we already got two, but I agree with the others that I want a more "cleaned up" version. She's still royalty, and after she got out of Nythera I can't imagine her not dressing up a little. She doesn't look very regal as is.
• Widow Weaver - I'm partial to the current one, but I think there's a lot of room for a cool design with her that represents her fear potential better
• Lucius - Really, a whole box of Neverborn-esque Guild figures. Rifleman with subtle tentacles. Queeg with a face in his chest. Dashel with fangs and one eye. These are Neverborn infiltrating the Guild after all, but they can be trying to blend in like the current Doppleganger does.

5 hours ago, Bengt said:

Brewmaster is in the rulebook.

Dang! So much for that theory. My memory must be going with age...

Keep in mind that when the original 2E rulebook was printed, there wasn't models like the Brewmaster that gave negative to ALL flips. As new models come into play, they break ground on new design space and do things that nobody else could do before. It probably was originally written that was to try to make it clear, but now that we have models like Brewmaster, it causes a slight bit of doubt, but not enough to justify calling prevention "not a flip"

All flips are all flips. So yes, this ability affects any flip. Though you're going to have a hard time finding a specific quote in the rulebook that's going to answer that question.

Lucius is my least played NB master, so I have a hard time commenting on his. Deep Pockets does seem pretty cool, but I think what feels lacking from his upgrades is the non-game changing nature of it. Pandora being able to summon Sorrows and Poltergeist is game changing, it offers her a whole new way to play. Lilith's hazardous terrain stuff is a dream come true for the way I play her. Dreamer turns into a beat stick. So while I think Lucius is solid, the new upgrades lack a little sparkle that get people excited.

One thing to watch for is what the buff actually is. Some buffs are "target gains burning 2", in which only the original target would, not the blast targets. But if "enemies damaged by this attack" or "this attack does +2 damage", then it applies to the blast damage as well.

Good call on the Effigies Vorschlag. Collodi's limited upgrades specifically work with Effigies, so having them is nearly mandatory. At least a couple. Brutal and Arcane are the two I normally run with. One upgrade lets you summon effigies, the other lets you give an effigies buff to all nearby puppets instead of just Collodi. Definitely worth having.

As a side comment, Cherub vs Primordial

I love the Primordial Magic. The Rush of Magic pays for the cost, the incorporeal lets it move around to where it's needed (and stay safe early game) and I can even get use out of the attack to targets insignificant. That's great when PM is hanging out in the backfield to stay alive and some scheme runner is making an end-run to drop markers in your deployment. Wait until late in the round when hands are depleted then cast. Then take advantage of incorporeal to walk through a wall or something to avoid the rebuttal.

Cherub is also good, but needs to be more involved to take advantage of his tricks, while also being more expensive. PM is valuable just standing around doing nothing. I tend to take the Cherub only when there's schemes or strategies that requires (2) Interacts. Being able to move the Cherub into position, then move something else in and take that (2) as a (1) is invaluable. more so than the (1) as a (0) I feel, though I get use out of both if Cherub is along.

The Cherub might see more play with Lilith's new terrain upgrade now that I think about it. I gotta see how it's little aura is worded, but it could be more useful in non-interact situations with that.

As a primary Lilith player, I discarded grow lists early in the process of learning her, and eventually most of the Nephilim as well (besides Lilitu). I feel like grow lists are a bit of a "trap", in that it's difficult to work on its own unless you actively work towards making it happen. And Malifaux is usually got enough going on that this becomes a distraction to the goal of Schemes & Strategies. If you're interested in Lilith & Nephilim, that's one thing, and in that case I'd say steer clear of grow lists. 

If a grow list is what you want, I'll definitely echo others that Nekima & Brood Mother is great for it. Nearly mandatory in my mind, since she's also very good even if the grow part fails. 

Barbaros is also going to be very effective. First, his Challenge can help draw attention away from nearby Tot's until they get a chance to grow. Second, his built-in trigger on his attack is custom built for grow lists. Instead of killing a target, it's paralyzed, reduced to 1, and pushed in any direction, likely triggering a pounce to kill it and grow. 

I've never felt like I got enough mileage out of the Blackblood Shaman to warrant the cost, but that's largely because I tend to run Lilith with a very different crew style these days without a lot of Nephilim. I don't have enough experience really to judge him.

18 hours ago, H4ml3t said:

Coryphee are great with Collodi.

With the caveat that they can't "Dance Together" to form a Duet with Collodi

Bunraku look interesting, but I just got them on the table for the first time a couple weeks ago. Misaki ended up killing both of them before either of them did anything but walk, so it wasn't the best test case

Grootslang have the Beast keyword, so potentially useful for folks like Marcus or McMourning (with his new Test Subjects upgrade)

Otherwise they play with terrain, getting bonuses from it, and being able to move around to their lair markers. They are large size minions for cheap SS cost (6), which is appealing to me. I see them playing very nice with Waldgeists and Lilith's new upgrade, enough so that I picked up 2 at GenCon after seeing their stats.

Nekima is definitely bigger than Lilith and the older plastic Nekima. No where near the size of the old metal Nekima however. I'm at work so I don't have comparison pictures, but I'd say for scale, the body is around 50% larger than a Lilith

I feel somewhat foolish for even asking this, but if an enemy cannot "end" a push within Anna's aura, can it even start one if it's not far enough to get out?

I have a strong dislike of enemy gremlins pushing away on a successful defense trigger and I am expecting to face a lot of them in the near future. I was considering hiring Anna for the aura to prevent them from doing this. After reading the other Dress questions, this wasn't actually covered. 

Say a gremlin has a 3" push, but is base to base with Anna. No way to get out of the aura with any push. Does that gremlin then not push at all? It seems like that, but I can see an opponent not accepting that, even though there's no other feasible way to interpret this.

Clarifying the Paralyze thing...

Is a defensive trigger an action? For example, if Justice or a gremlin is paralyzed, could they still counterattack or squee away?

No need to apologize from my view, just making sure each side understands that this isn't politics... we can respectfully disagree and don't assume the other side are maliciously evil!

As far as your points:

1) 100% agreed. A model needs to be judged in relation to other choices. Saying a 7 SS model in a faction that has very strong upgrades and buffing units should be 100% balanced to a 7 SS model that is nearly lacking in support and has few good upgrades isn't very fair. But saying a 7 SS model in Neverborn should be as good as a different 7 SS model in Neverborn is fair. Illuminated are a stand-out in Neverborn, so another 7 SS model that is intended for a similar purpose needs to be judged in relation to the Illuminated or it'll never get taken.

2) Most of my games are in Minneapolis area, but I've played at Adepticon the last couple years in Masters and other Malifaux events there. I know I was in for culture shock the first year and did quite poorly due to being unfamiliar with the Adepticon meta. I played Lilith both years for all my games (first year because I had to, second year because I wanted to compare) with largely the same core crew selection. I did much better in the second year because I was ready for the different play style than I was used to. That's my only experience with different meta's, but it does illustrate it can make a difference. 

I also think personal play style matters. I used to use Lilith very different than I do today, and I can see how my crew selection has changed to go with it. Before Lilith was always played forward, very aggressively and I needed things that could keep up with her and keep her safe. I also selected schemes that nearly never needed markers, preferring things like assassination and bodyguard. As I grew more comfortable with Lilith and started playing her more to the rear, along with the new schemes relying more heavily on markers, my crew selection changed as well. I still don't take quite what the podcast/tourney consensus agrees with, because I don't like Lilith to be so passive. I like Lilith because she can swing her sword like a first rate beat stick, and I want to be able to use it. So my crews emphasis is on things like Lilitu and the Doppleganger to Lure to Lilith, which ends up working fantastically with Baby Kade.

3) Small buffs can have unintended consequences though. If Barbaros gets better as a 10 SS model, what will he end up replacing? He's already very tanky and fairly durable. If his offensive improves, what model might he now make subpar? Alternatively, if it's only a small tweak, then the balance can't be too bad as-is or it would need more.

I'm 100% with you on the anti-Rock/Paper/Scissors gameplay. I don't want model X to be a hard counter to model Y, but model Z crushes model X. Then you win or lose in a guessing game during list building. I'm not sure if focusing on flavor necessarily means that, but I do agree. Nekima is partially balanced by her very fragile nature. She's very offensive, but is built like wet tissue for any opponent that wants to try to get rid of her. If she was balanced by reducing offense (if OP) or buffing defense (if UP), then it takes away from her character a little bit. If she wasn't so all out nuts on offensive, she'd quickly be relegated to the shelf. She's fragile enough you often only get 2 rounds out of her, so she has to put out 13 SS worth of value in those two rounds. 

The other thing to keep in mind is value. 13 SS into one model means one set of activation. One model for schemes/strategies that are based on numbers. One target for super debuff's or a red joker on damage. It's "all your eggs in one basket". This has a cost of it's own that needs to be balanced. A 13 SS model that can do as much as a 6 SS and 7 SS model combined is less desirable than the 6 SS and 7 SS model.

14 hours ago, orkdork said:

I'm not losing games. No idea why those who disagree with me assume I'm having trouble with these models or something. Quite the contrary...

I think it's just a matter of how "this model is below par and needs a buff". If I think that model is strong and routinely have success with it, then the assumption is you don't know how to play it. 

Of course, we know it's not quite that simple, but you're inferring the exact same thing in your comment:

14 hours ago, orkdork said:

I didn't suggest making anything "easy or straightforward", and would suggest that if you think these models are some of our most potent, then you might need to review how you play the stronger models in the faction..

You're assuming that since we find models like Candy and Baby Kade useful, that we must not be playing the other models you consider strong effectively enough. It's the flip side to the same coin.

I don't think it's out of malice or assuming ignorance, but there's been no other explanations put forth that would explain why both sides think they know better than the other side. So, without further ado, I think it's a matter of meta's. I've heard (maybe incorrectly) that the UK scene has very different lists than the US scene. I would say it's quite likely that you'll find similar differences in regional areas around the US as well. It could very well be that Candy and Baby Kade just don't perform as well when the opponents are playing a different style list, but are quite potent when playing in the local lists.

There would need to be more in-depth analysis of the tournament lists in regional and national level games to be able to tease out how true this was. But the fact that there's not consensus and that there are several who argue for both sides of models like Baby Kade probably means these models are fairly well balanced, and the shifts of the meta are all that shifts the likelihood of their inclusion.

We could certainly focus on other aspects of your list like Beckoners, and there would likely more agreement that these models rarely make a list. Beckoners are too tied to the Brilliance mechanic and therefore only function in a Brilliance heavy list in my opinion, so rarely ever get fielded. So while your list as a whole might be more for your meta, there are likely models that are below par for the faction that most everyone can agree on regardless of meta.

59 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

She is actually more useful against someone with a positive. Without her you are almost guarantued to lose initiative, with her you have a decent chance of cheating so high that you actually win it. You need to cheat a lot higher but it is basically your only chance of ever getting initiative so increases her usability rather than lessens it in my eyes.

The math isn't quite that bad. A positive twist vs a straight flip is about 66% to 33%. It's a little less precise due to cards and not dice, but it's a good rule of thumb. I agree that this usually feels like always going second, but it's not that much worse than 50-50

3 hours ago, LunarSol said:

It's more the ability to activate her last in a turn and reliably immediately activate her first the next turn I was referring to.

Even without the doppleganger you have a 50-50 chance of being able to do that, and if you're willing to spend resources (i.e. stones) better than that. I think giving Howard re-activate and getting him to go virtually 3 times in a row would be much worse

55 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

The most problematic thing about Nekima is probably the Doppleganger, as it lets her reliably get 2 activations in a row.

I wouldn't go that far. Sure, the Doppleganger could get a set of Nekima's attacks, but that's not remotely the same thing as Nekima just activating twice. Nekima has a lot of other things going for her that a Doppleganger can't copy. I don't know how many times I've finished off a HtK model with Nekima cutting herself to avoid wasting an attack as an example.

I played a campaign with Scion + Emissary. That was fantastic. Scion would make things pop out a scheme marker with a 0, move then drop another marker. Then the Emissary would turn them both into a Changeling. 8ss was a bit expensive for that, but he also drove my opponents nuts trying to chase him down and kill him.

It is magic! 2 minutes after I post, I just got shipping notices on both my orders! Thanks Wyrd!

I've got 10163 and 10167 still awaiting fulfillment... but I'm happy to know they're up to 10132

Models are a toolbox, and how you decide to try to use those tools is nearly as important as what the tool is. If you're trying to use a hammer on a screw, it will work, but a screwdriver might work better. Conversely, if you're trying to hit a nail, you'd be better off with the hammer.

I normally play Lilith, with Pandora being a distant #2. My master choice is part of the reason Barbaros, Candy and Baby Kade don't feel in need of anything to me. Barbaros is amazingly good at distracting another crew with Challenge, especially if it's a crew that requires targeting each other or staying fairly close. I feel people undervalue Challenge. I ran into some top finishers my first year at Adepticon that were surprised at how effective Challenge was at shutting down their crews or depleting their hand. Likely because they hadn't seen it get used. Sure, Barbaros sucks at dishing out damage, but that's not his purpose. His purpose is distracting a lot of bad guys, and he excels at that.

Baby Kade on the other hand fits in great with my normal Lilitu/Doppleganger/Lilith style game. Kade sits underneath Lilitu's 4" whip and murders anything that gets close with even mid-range crows that I've been camping. With a crow and another model adjacent to him, he is a heck of a damage dealer. And if you are making use of his pounce, either through Lure or Gaze or pushes from Barbaros, you can keep his very fragile being safe. 

Hence my opinion. I can't think of a pounce that is scarier than Baby Kade's when something else is engaging the model. Yeah, Barbaros sometimes is lackluster in a game when my opponent gets lucky killing him quick or can ignore his challenge in some way, but in other games he's easily MVP. 

When I see Baby Kade, Barbaros and Candy on the list of models to buff, I have a hard time accepting the rest of the list. I think all three models are VERY good at what they do, and they all frequently find places in my lists. 

I'm also not a fan of any of the debuff's you've suggested, but I doubt any Neverborn players would be

I need to go take a peek... both 2015 and 2016 Adepticon's I've been questioned about my Nightmare Teddy being a legit model. Thankfully both times there was a chorus of other players around us very vocally supporting Nightmare Teddy as legit. I'm not optimistic that there's a Nightmare Teddy card though...

I'd also like to request the older 1E Miss model cards of some sort. They aren't my primary factions and therefore haven't put them on the table with anyone I didn't already know, but it would be nice to have a card to match for the collection sake.