Azahul

Sounds like it makes the fast models just moderately swift, but makes the slow models excruciatingly slow. Remember this isn't a relative change. For some models this halves their threat range. For other models it reduces it by less than a quarter. And let's not get into what it does to non-melee attacks, or how it makes protracted brawls into Serene Countenance models impossible. The impact is not evenly distributed. See, the thing with big sweeping changes is that they just set a new baseline for the game. You aren't going to fix whole archetypes of models without breaking other archetypes in the process. This change isn't inherently bad. It just sets a new normal for the game and will create new classes of underplayed models that will only see table time if you approach each one with specific targeted buffs. ...but that is also the situation we are in right now. Some archetypes don't work well (mainly low cost combat Minions). We could buff those models to see play by buffing them individually instead of a grand sweeping core rulebook change, and it would likely be a better fix than shifting the baseline and rendering other model types less useful. I get why it's appealing to think that one or two core book fixes would suddenly fix the problems of all the underplayed models in the game. It isn't even entirely impossible that it wouldn't. It's going to have collateral damage though, and you could more easily fix that damage by fixing up the current set of collateral damage models in the current context we're more familiar with than try to guess at the most heavily impacted models in a new context and land on the benefits they would need to see play.

Turns out I predicted it! Can't win a game without Tara. Was a close run thing but the Von Schill vs Jack Daw game ended 5-4 in Daw's favour. My opponent definitely outplayed me and I couldn't quite sculpt the critical mass of good cards to push through the actions I needed to win.

I actually think Basse is sounding like the perfect starting point. Cowboy themed, relatively simple (as far as Malifaux goes anyway, but even so "shoot a bunch and hide behind terrain" is reasonably intuitive), and he isn't likely to be nerfed in the next errata. I wouldn't rate him as a weak Master, though there do seem to be issues with his core box minions the Frontiersmen. Still, he gives you someone to learn the game with and straddles both Guild and Explorers, so you can put off deciding which faction you prefer until you get a grasp of the game, find what clicks for you, and see how the Errata shakes out in a couple of months.

Well, lists are locked so I may as well say that, despite the name of this topic, for round four I am going to be playing Von Schill Ironheart rather than Tara. If I lose it is clearly because I abandoned Tara 😅

The way I play Aionus is typically charge a buried friendly model (ideally the Nothing Beast) every turn, then Sever Timeline a summon. Do that three or four times to creep down a flank and be in a spot to enable a scheme or strat point or two in the last few turns. Maybe sucker punch an enemy with a big hit in the late game. It sounds like I probably play Tara into much less killy pools than you though, so maybe that is part of it?

Haha, a lot of that assumes Aionus tries to attack enemy models. Doesn't happen much 😁

Is that to buy crows? Because 33 largely removes that tax by just giving you the 7 of crows most turns.

I was wondering if the Whisper on Molly might be a more cost effective way of dealing with the Night Terror issue

Because a) They're not Dense, and b) They're mere underbrush, not a forest!

Hazardous schmazardous. I'll play on a table trying to kill me any day of the week. The real terrain everyone is too cowardly about is markers. If I've got a graveyard on my table you'd better believe there are some corpse markers before the game even begins. A fight near a train station or foundry? Probably some scrap. Heck, not unheard of for me to grab some spare Underbrush markers for a forest game, though that one probably is getting a tad niche. Yes I know it gives an advantage to some Keywords. That's why Malifaux lets you pick your crew after seeing the table. Lean into it 😁

I don't think the Walk tax is as bad as all that. In return for paying it you get to be in several different points at once, and you have the AP to pay for it. Always struck me as more relevant for attrition discussions (where you typically want to bring all your AP to the one point) than scheming. But yes, there are a few ways to make cheaper models explicitly more important in schemes as well.

The post you're quoting did also say that it would go hand in hand with targeted buffs to the lowest performing models, to be fair.

Yep, but so far elite crews have always had AP-efficient schemes to go for. Making scoring ever harder for smaller crews could shift the balance. Or it might just lead to lower scoring games overall (I hear you're a fan of that outcome too though! ). Won't know until we try.

That sounds... exactly like the kind of dynamic we should be shooting for, does it not? One player brings a high model count schemey crew to try and score 8 points. The other player brings a low model count elite crew unlikely to score more than 4-5 points, hoping to kill enough enemy models that that will be enough to win. That's only problematic if one of those strategies is clearly more viable than another. Which it might be if the balancing isn't done well. I don't know if anyone could realistically say one of those would be problematically dominant right now for sure though, seeing as we've had easy to score attrition-oriented schemes in every Gaining Grounds so far. Let alone if it would problematic after an errata that (hopefully) sees some targeted buffs to some of the worst performing low cost models.

That's certainly been my impression. It's hard to reconcile the existence of stuff like Spread Them Out with, say, Research Mission or Vendetta, which can so often be scored without spending any AP you wouldn't have spent if the objectives were just "kill as many enemy models as possible". To be honest, my inclination is to actually go further in the opposite direction. I don't want to see elite crews invalidated entirely but I think if the entire scheme pool looked more like Breakthrough than Let Them Bleed then there would be less complaining about the likes of Outflank or Bait and Switch. They still might not be schemes that are necessarily easy to score, each for their own reasons, but they aren't helped when other schemes are just so comparatively trivial. Make everything harder, make scoring every point and still playing attrition virtually impossible for elite crews, and suddenly more AP intensive schemes or ones that might need fewer AP but a certain amount of stars aligning become more attractive.

Haha, I'm the other way around (bit of a theme emerging), but it is neat that such a small Keyword is still able to give that sort of flexibility in preferred playstyles. Something to be said for having every model feel worthwhile.

Makes sense on the Tara2/Aionus front. I haven't delved too deep into Tara2 admittedly, only played a couple of games before deciding I preferred Tara1 in virtually all scenarios, so not surprising there's some nuance I'm missing. On the Time Warp front at least if the deck hasn't given me a good Time Warp, it usually means the rest of the deck should be decent 😁

That's fascinatingly inverted. I usually find on any given turn I only need a little help getting everything unburied. I'd have assumed that between Tara2 being able to do it cheaply with Expedite and in having fewer models to unbury without summons that she'd have less for Aionus. What are you using him for out of interest? To be fair, I've found Obliteration better at resource management as I've gotten better at remembering card order for Time Warps. And as mentioned 33 helps a lot, turning your otherwise usually useless weaks into the low-moderates with specific suits you need for your TNs.

This does actually make a lot of sense. Aionus is a lot more important to Tara1 than 2 in my view, and you can't summon Void Hunters in 2, and of course in a pinch you can even have a Void Hunter do Aionus's role of unburying a model, so they have a lot more reasons to be taken with our Rewind friend. I can see the logic. With Tara1 he just does too much for me to pass up. He guarantees that I have 3-4 activations at the end of every turn that the opponent can't respond to. Just as importantly, he gets my models on the board without needing to win opposed duels with enemy models. The mobility of Obliteration as a Keyword is basically unsurpassed but it has its limitations, namely that you can usually only get models on the board where both you and your opponent already have models. Aionus lets you have a presence anywhere he is, massively increasing your flexibility, and he can run around while giving Fast to friendly buried models so his AP always feel efficient to me. Not as impactful in the traditional ways for a Cost 10 model, but an amazing lynchpin for Obliteration's unique mechanics.

Honestly even this, a super killy pool, isn't bad for Tara. She can play a more schemey game for the Strategy, score Vendetta trivially with the Scion, and just bury enemy models near the centre to score Claim Jump (then keep the Claim Jumper buried until Turn 5). Her options are a bit limited without easy marker generation but she has a play.

I did say my lists were "all the non-Minions, 9 stones" and "that list but swap the Scion for two Wretches", but if you want it laid out clearer than that: Round One Lunch Time (Outcasts) Size: 50 - Pool: 9 Leader: Tara Totem(s): Karina Hires: Scion of the Void Aionus Talos The Nothing Beast Thirty-Three References: Void Wretch Void Hunter The Endless Void Rounds Two and Three Time Is An Illusion (Outcasts) Size: 50 - Pool: 7 Leader: Tara Totem(s): Karina Hires: Aionus Talos Thirty-Three The Nothing Beast Void Wretch Void Wretch 2 References: Void Wretch Void Hunter The Endless Void

Ok, so at the request of @SEV here is a quick rundown of my Malifaux World Series games this month. As a quick preface, I don't actually play in World Series events very often. I get enough games in person locally that I really only feel the compulsion to play Malifaux on Vassal when my local area is locked down or otherwise seeing enough of a spike that local players don't feel comfortable meeting up for face-to-face games. These have been my first Vassal games in like six months, so I wouldn't really consider myself an internationally competitive player. Nevertheless, I play enough Malifaux to have views and opinions on models. And one of those is that Tara is good. Very good. Best Master in Outcasts good. So despite the fact that when I signed up my plan was to just play my beloved Hamelin into everything and shoot for my regular mediocre results, I saw a few posts in the Errata thread we've got going about Tara needing buffs which seemed... strange. Tara holds the distinction of being the only Keyword in Outcasts where I view every single model as viable, and only one (the Void Hunter) doesn't really get considered as a potential hire (they're a bit pricey and I'd rather just summon them). It's not a big Keyword, but nevertheless I'm not sure there's another Keyword in the game that feels quite so much like every model under its banner is good and useful. Maybe the Crossroads Seven? Anyway, point is, Obliteration would be bottom of my list of crews in need of buffs. But strangers on the internet seemed to think differently, so hey, there was one way to work out if I was crazy. Play a bunch of Tara, online, in a format that I knew was competitive. If she worked there then hey, it would validate those aforementioned views and opinions. And feelings. I like having feelings be validated. Anyway, long story short, I have since played three games of Tara (Tara1, as I've mentioned elsewhere I don't really like Tara2 all that much), won three games with Tara, and given myself a confidence boost. Whoo. Round One Round one was a Symbols of Authority game with corner deployment and Vendetta in the scheme pool, so basically Tara's dream pool. Tara was already one of the game's best Symbols claimer, since she can be anywhere to start with and then can basically Leap four times and interact to get a marker, which is usually well beyond what you actually need to score. I took Spread Them Out as my second scheme, because honestly Tara can score most of that scheme on her own while also picking up Symbols, so I had six points basically in the bag just so long as Tara survived. The final two points were going to come from Vendetta, because a buried Scion can score it with impunity off of basically any cheap model the opponent cares to bring to the table and then is guaranteed to be alive at the end of the game. The main way to counter Tara's Symbol grabbing potential is to use 2" melee range models to guard symbols, but honestly 33 made this a significantly worse prospect as now Tara can just use Stutter Time on the guard to get 33 into position, have 33 unbury, two places at once so that she's not base to base with the guard, and then Slippery renders their melee range irrelevant so you can interact with impunity. Then Tara can bury 33 again and rinse and repeat next turn. Or 33 can just bury the guard and let Tara do the scoring. It's a lot of flexibility. My approach to crew building with Tara is usually just "hire all the non-Minion models, sit on a 9 stone cache, summon the minions as needed" and this was the perfect pool for that. As for the game itself, my opponent was experimenting with Asami2 using a clutch of Yokai as extremely fast schemers. It was a bit intimidating, he had all the markers he needed for Spread Them Out already down on the table before the end of Turn 1, but I was able to bury each Yokai in turn and kill all of them by the end of the first activation of Turn 3. Scored Vendetta with the Scion in the process on one of the Yokai. With Tara uncontested and up scoring the other six points very nearly on her own, and the entire rest of my crew plus Tara's summons just needing to get in the way and deny points, that was basically game at that point. Round two Round two I was paired against Outcasts. Which is tragic, because Outcasts actually have quite a lot of anti-Tara tech thanks to, well, Tara's Keyword mostly. My opponent brought in Arik as their OOK tech pick though to deny unburies in an aura, and chose the Viktorias2. I believe most of this was intended as anti-Tara2 Kidnap tech, since Combat Finesse makes landing 33's Pine Box attack kind of problematic (you can finangle a way around this with Time Warp, admittedly, but it's annoying) and Arik can zone out 33's Expedite unbury with Gravity Well. I took Tara1 though. This was a Break the Line game on Standard Deployment, so I figured I would force the game to be about two different flanks and capitalise on my ability to rapidly redeploy my models to where they were most needed. The scheme pool this round included both Catch and Release and Hidden Martyrs, so I decided to hire two Void Wretches instead of the Scion. This took me down to a mere 7 stone cache, but they were cheap AP able to interact with Strat Markers and my game plan involved dominating at least one flank so their squishiness when unburied wouldn't matter. I didn't really intend on taking both schemes, but threatening both and forcing my opponent to reckon with the possibility seemed good. After seeing Arik was in my opponent's crew I figured Hidden Martyrs would be easier than Catch, so went for that and Breakthrough. Assassinate was in this pool, so the game played out with me placing Tara on the far right and most of the rest of my crew on the far left. Both the Viks and Arik proceeded to gun for Tara, so I mucked with them for a bit using the terrain to make it hard for them to get to her (Diving Charge doesn't help you that much if you have to Diving Charge to get past terrain and you still aren't in melee range), and then around Turn 3 I buried her and had her reappear on the far left flank. Got 33 killed pretty early, which scored me Hidden Martyrs, and I was able to shut down my opponent's attempts at Breakthrough by using Karina to unbury random Void Wretches in my backline and keep their models from being able to interact with Strat Markers to turn this into a 6-3 win (two strat points and an Assassinate after I was silly and stuck a 7 hit point Tara next to the Malifaux Child last thing on Turn 5). Round three Outcasts again! This time on Leylines, another Strategy Tara is really very, very good at with a pool including both Breakthrough and Hidden Martyrs again. I went for the same crew composition, and funnily enough I think this opponent teched for Tara2 by bringing the Viktorias2 as well and Aionus and the Nothing Beast OOK. That did mean I couldn't just leave point scorers buried with impunity, and indeed had to keep most of my burying of my models to the end of turn after I'd out-activated my opponent. Anyway, I played pretty aggressively with Tara and 33 on Turn 1 so that my opponent couldn't claim a Lodestone, out activating him and dropping 33 on top of their Lodestone bearer to bury the Ronin and kill her with Talos. I did have to move Tara into range before my opponent's last activation, so she got jumped by the Viks with two swings that each hit for five damage, so even after stoning I was in a pretty dire spot. I buried Tara, was able to cheat initiative and heal her up, and she spent the rest of the game playing rather more cagey. The early play panned out though, since it left 33 running rampant in my opponent's deployment zone burying model after model, which Talos promptly set alight. The frequent burying meant my opponent had no real leeway on the Strategy, he was only able to score it twice, whereas Tara's crew's mobility left them well able to score it four times. My opponent made up a lot of ground on schemes, but with how squishy his crew was I actually caused a lot of damage and gave myself free reign of the board by the end of the game, leaving this at an 8-5 result. Summary I mean, there's still half the event left to go, but I'm feeling pretty happy that my impressions of Tara based on her performance in my local meta seem to have largely been accurate. She's good. Her crew is good. The way it synergises is actually rather beautiful. 33's ability to sift through your discard pile, combined with Karina's ability to change what your discard pile is, combines to allow you to always have the 7 of Crows in hand. That in turn means that Aionus can always succeed in a Sever Timeline and generate two pass tokens. And that in turn lets you play around the sort of countertech I saw in round three, because I would have 3-4 activations end of turn to work with. Anyway, I'm sure in the next round or two I'll start to actually get pummelled, but it hasn't happened so far and Tara has demonstrated why she is a point scoring machine. She's not the best Master in Outcasts at killing, Leveticus, Von Schill, Hamelin, Daw all do that better than her. But she absolutely is the best Master at scoring in a huge variety of pools, and that's the kind of thing that wins you games. Either way, I'll keep this thread updated through the next few rounds if people are interested. Let me know if any of this was helpful

I think Andorman recorded the round three game?

Oh I crutch hard on Aionus. It's a miracle I ever win anything with my reliance on him and Void Wretches. I'll throw together a thread on the subject at some point. We were undefeated as a faction in round one. Then they started pairing us against one another. If they hadn't done that we might still be 100%! If you're going to change Tara2 anyway, change her to remove the kidnap and give her something else to compensate. Changing one model just seems simpler than changing two. I don't actually expect Tara2 to cop nerfs for exactly the reasons you list. I wouldn't expect Titles to be touched until the next cycle.

The game into Kharnage was into Ten Thunders. Only the two double Void Wretch games were into Outcasts. But I am truly sorry for the damage I am doing to our faction's win rate. I swear it is self defence!