CapnBloodbeard

I disagree (somewhat). People have been saying that even before the Wave 5 upgrades when he was even worse at charging ahead. vS is great at getting amongst the enemy, don't get me wrong. And especially with getting positive flips for defence against models he's damaged (because of course he has oathkeeper), he can be pretty hard to take down. In fact, if you play him this way, I like to just use his entire first turn giving himself triple oathkeeper. Might want a few extra SS too. BUT, he doesn't HAVE to play this way. He doesn't HAVE to be the beatstick. He can spend his time hunting down the scheme runners. He can, instead, play disruption. Just leap around and throw the opposing models into awkward spots (or break up their synergies). Throw them away from key areas. Heck, you can even throw them back into your own crew. Or, hanging back and being a support master works really, really well too (in fact, it always has). With the WP and H2K-but-not aura, he makes his models more survivable. And that works better if he's distributing oathkeepers around to other models. vS, Lazarus and Librarian, all with positive flips on key opposing models and protected by Schill? Heck yes. And if you do that, you're going to punish anybody who gets into melee range - not to mention be about to outlast a lot of gun battles with the healing around. On of Schill's most underappreciated aspects is his sheer versatility. He can play beatstick, tarpit, hunter, scheme runner, support. He can play deep in enemy terrain, or in the front line along with his other models. Other masters require you to set up their intended playstyle with their upgrades. Schill you can, sure....but with some loadouts (especially using Wave 5), he can switch between any of these playstyles in a heartbeat Not to mention having a few other tricks up his sleeves. Handing out oathkeeper in turn 4/5 to that lonely Friekorpsmenn running to the back corner to drop scheme markers. Heck, while it's VERY situational, don't forget he can even throw his own models around. Now, that's often just exchanging 1 AP for another so it's not something that you'll do a lot of, but it shows he does have a few tricks up his sleeves. Don't pigeon-hole yourself into playing Schill any particular way. Also depends what you want out of the game. Tossing opposing models around, shooting them and repeating is one of the most fun things you can do, but sometimes doing something else is more likely to win. So, might depend if you're playing to win, or if you don't care about the score.

You know, von Schill also works really well hanging back with his crew - he doesn't need to be launching himself upfield and engaging in melee. If he has put oathkeeper on a couple of other models, and he's taking shots then other models are getting positive flips. Also means Schill is keeping is own crew alive, he stays within range of his librarian and steam trunk, and he can still get into melee when the opponents reach you. Schill functions just fine as a master who hangs back and supports his own crew. Depends on the board, schemes and strat if that's a good option or not.

They're on most people's best lists! Bishop - 3AP is always amazing. Makes him great in headhunter. A bit slow, average defence, but study opponent can be really great. Cage fighter defensive trigger is handy too. Damage is low at first glance, but a range of triggers and auto-selecting a suit is nice. Can do 4/5/6 damage if you flip a ram. Min 4 is just great, especially when you get to choose to target somebody's weakest stat. Min 4 dmg with 4 attacks - potentially 6 if you're using oathkeeper. He can cause problems, and his defensive trigger can make opponents a little reluctant to hit him. Only 4" walk is his main weakness I think, but at least his CG is 7" Strongarm - low df sure, but most models won't pierce Armor. Defensive buffs usually have some counters. Armor 2 is good - it means there's a fair chance you're only copping 1-2 dmg every time you lose an attack. Even losing on severe dmg, you're only copping 2-3, maybe 4. Augmented jump is amazing, and Friekorps suit really negate some things that other crews are doing. 2/4/6 dmg, triggers, at possibly Ml7 isn't anything to sneeze at (although I think min dmg 3 would suit him more). His shooting is pretty average, although you can buff it to Sh7. But if he's leaping around close to von Schill and has oathkeeper, so getting on models Schill is damaging, then he starts getting hard to defend against. Lazarus is one of my favourite models. Autofire is just amazing. So much better than rapid fire. Again, Armor 2 makes him pretty tough to take down unless you're piercing armor - but yes, if that's the case then he's way too easy to take down, though the heal is good. Not too many models are bypassing armor so it's probably still useful. min 3 dmg is nice, and (0)AP using a construct's ability can be great. Great synergy with Schill too - although it might be a problem if Schill is upfield. Some of the best models in the game around that SS range

von Schill can be played a few ways. Beatstick is the simplest because you can throw models around and get free shots. He can be an area denial master because he can throw opposing models out of position, and he can take a bit of punishment himself. But he also offers some good support for his crew, he can work well just hanging back and shooting at stuff too. He's flexible. Trapper and librarian in his box are handy in most crews. He's a good master for a new player because he isn't overly complex, and even if you screw up and leave him vulnerable he'll probably survive, so he's forgiving of mistakes. Viks are a glass cannon and can be a bit unforgiving for a new players because they do down easily - and it can be a bit confusing as different things occur on the different Viks models depending if they're outside or inside 6", or 2", or have more or fewer cards in your hand. But they're fun. Tara - void wretches in her crew are handy for most crew. I still haven't quite got her figured out, she can hand out fast/slow and the crew can sort of do their own thing, I think. Can bury a model to run them up field and deploy them close to the enemy. Misaki - she's a bit easier than the Viks and hits hard too, although I think she's really a 10 Thunders master as she works better with their models. However with the box set she's fine. She's pretty tough.

Although vS can work really, really well in this role, depending on the strat/scheme pool and some other things. Stand back, shoot and support the team. I think that's it. They're too general and they do nothing well. Even 5 and 6 SS models are often decent at one thing. Being a little difficult to kill is about the only thing they do, and that's only within 6" of vS - and even then they're not all that difficult. Another difference is that the trapper has an impact on how your opponent moves around the board - FM doesn't. And because you're not moving trapper, you're often focussing him. I do take FM reasonably often though, just one.

Some people like using him with that upgrade where you can ignore LOS for a Turn 1 sneaky shot on something, like a totem, with focus. Although I'd think that's unlikely to work unless you have a really high card in your hand otherwise it'll just get defeated. I've never tried it myself because I tend to use his 0AP

You're making no sense. First your complaint was that VS is crap without upgrades. But you don't hold other masters to that standard - in fact you say that the Viks upgrades are useful and allow new options (yet apparently new options on VS are just a fun gimmick). So now you're okay with upgrades. Make up your mind. As for the Ss - Schill really doesn't need more than 1 SS. Unlike the viks where you want to run them with 7SS (yet they only have a cache of one...you're quiet about that too). Levi also has cache 1. 2-3SS with Schill gives you a good amount of flexibility. Might want some more if you want to use reposition a lot. Now you're complaining about some of his old upgrades are ordinary...well, yeah, so? So don't take them. doesn't make any sense to consider upgrades you wouldn't take in judging a master's competency. Judge the master by what you do take. Out of the upgrades you're criticising, Spoils of War is an 'all Friekorps' one. some people like Paid in Blood but I've never taken it. I still find I have a hard time choosing which 3 upgrades to take with him because there are a number of really good ones. I find Schill now to be one of the most versatile masters - he can be a huge beatstick, a tarpit, a support master, or play the denial game. And he can change between this roles during the game too.

So? Plenty of masters need upgrades to be any good. Why single out VS in that? Viks lose a huge amount of potency without upgrades, for instance. You'd never dream of taking them without upgrades. It's a silly argument. Malifaux is designed so some masters need their upgrades. As for 1ss,sure I think he should have maybe 3,but he doesn't desperately need ss. The 2 new upgrades aren't necessarily auto takes. Tough decisions need to be made with some of the old ones.

Agree on Taelor, I'd only consider taking her against a summoning crew. Or maybe a tyrant/construct heavy one. Can't remember the last time I actually took her - she's just completely useless. But Wave 5 upgrades don't change Schill? Puh-lease! Aside from the fact that he's now a huge hitter and can potentially (albeit rather unlikely) hit 10 attacks in a single activation (and in doing so can pretty much get across the entire length of the board), most of them on at least 1 positive flip, I find that he's a lot more schemey than before. He can hurl his own models places, but the amount of disruption he can do with tossing enemy models around, and there's not much they can do to stop it. Can throw them back, to their own part of the board, can toss them behind buildings - can even chuck them up to his own crew to finish them off. Launch himself into a crowd to get rid of everybody holding a turf marker, for instance. Or toss them off to the side so he can keep wailing on them. Can bounce off his own models to reposition himself - and given the positives to defence, he's a lot harder to take down now too. And that's before you even consider what throwing out oathkeepers can do. The Wave 5 upgrades change everything with Schill and give him huge utility in a range of schemes. There's now not much that he's bad at, as opposed to being bad at almost everything.

I don't mind Freikorpsmenn in a Schill crew. With Armour, H2K-but-not, and a WP buff they can be quite annoying against some crews. But.....they don't do anything. I think one thing we see as new waves have come out is that even low-cost models tend to do at least one thing reasonably well. Freikorpsmenn don't. They're kind of in line with what was wrong with pre-Wave 5 von Schill; they tried to turn them into an all-rounder, but failed. Winged Plagues have an advantage over Void Wretches in that they have higher defence while you have cards in your hand. Personally I still think that the Friekorps Specialist is one of our worst models.......except I have taken him a couple of times since he got dropped a SS. He's okay in some situations, but I'm still not sure that he has a place compared to other 7SS models. Interesting how, at 4SS, Desperate Mercenaries would have been on the list. Now at 3SS, I like them. They at least have a purpose and a particular job they do reasonably well (see what I mean, Freikorpsmenn??). I know I'm going to be in the minority here, but I very rarely fit Johann in my list. Mobility is just way too low. Sure, condition removal, but that presumes 1) That there's a condition that's worth using a model's activation to get rid of and 2) Johann is actually close enough to the model with said condition. Which I find makes his condition removal too situational to be useful. So we're left with a melee-only model that's as slow as a wet week. Everytime I think about Johann, I just find better places to spend the SS. Scion of the Void I struggle to do anything useful with as well.

The ability adds the suit to the final duel total in the same way that the suit on the card does.

Have you listened to Schemes and Stones on Daw? It's pre-wave 5, but they have one discussing all the Outcast wave 5 upgrades too

I like the fact that he doesn't randomise. That and the long range, even longer than the trapper. It's basically a question of Hans vs trapper. Those comparisons have been done a number of times on here - search for Hans to read through them - but bear in mind that when they were all done, trapper was 6 SS and Hans was 8. Now they're both 7 and Hans has his 0SS upgrade - although sometimes that's not the best one for him to take; people do find use in him being able to one-shot the enemy peon at the start of turn 1. I've never bothered trying to shoot the upgrade off anything.....I can see why it would help, but it's just too card intensive for the most part.

I was being lazy in my typing. I highlighted that as a benefit to autofire over rapid fire.

Some fair points. Easy to forget that strongarm can easily hit 4/6/7 dmg track. However, I would argue that Lazarus is more survivable than Langston or Strongarm. Strongarm has 1 more df but 3 fewer wds....it could well depend on your opposing models as to the relative strengths of those. However, with Laz' 0AP heal, I think that makes him much more survivable. And with Schill's 'hard to kill that isn't actually hard to kill' aura, that really increases this effect. I agree that Laz max dmg isn't overwhelming, but autocannon is nice. Can get annoying when you flurry only to red joker on the first one and feel like you've wasted AP Overall your point is that they both have different weaknesses and strengths making them suitable for different things. Which is absolutely correct.

There are probably a few ways you could run it in a similar sort of fashion to some of the WH40K games.....or a character driven game like what Telltale make

True. But they do apply to defence

Is she worth it though? Outside of a sister crew she doesn't do much else. Sure, she's Ca9 if she's on the centre (but a paltry max dmg), but she doesn't even heal other models. And she dies easily. So 8SS for a couple of lazarus AP......inefficient use of soulstones?

His autocannon is just awesome, being able to shoot 3 different targets. The model itself sucks - the 'posable' model was a terrible idea, because no matter how you pose him, he's just so static and boring. Lazarus, though, is awesome. I've been taking him more than Strongarm lately. He's harder to take down than the strongarm, with his built-in heal.And blasts are nice - especially if you're flipping positives because of Oathkeeper and Schill's new upgrades. I've never been able to get any particular construct synergy happening though.

Ooh yes. Good one. And he can also do a ml attack on his own models to reposition them up to 6".

Yeah it's great. And it can effectively allow you to charge models out of LOS, if there's a nearby model in LOS. It's actually pretty damn powerful. It's awesome jumping into a group of 3-4 models and tossing them all away. Really ruins your opponents plans, even their synergies, and can directly win you points. Schill does so much now that I feel like the Hodgepodge emissary becomes more justifiable as a support piece - as in it's worth having another piece (aside from the librarian) helping to keep Schill alive and have him ruin people's days. And if they're cheating to prevent models being tossed aside then all good - means they have fewer cards to cheat with when he rips his shirt off!

Agreed. von Schill is very mediocre until he gets the Wave 5 upgrades. He can had out oathkeeper with a 1AP to Friekorps, including himself. Models with Oathkeeper get flips to attacking and defensive duels Schill damages - that includes Schill himself. The upgrades also give him a Ml7 rg 2 attack that allow him to throw a model up to 6", and take a free shot while he's doing so. With his existing attack he then gets to place himself closer, and repeat. So he's getting bonus shots at or even . After the first hit, the Ml7 attack has a positive flip if it's the same model - Ml7 with positive becomes very hard to defend against. It's low damage, but it's the repositioning and bonus shot that you're doing it for. Not to mention throwing enemy models away from where they want to be, and moving himself around the field. Finally, Schill can charge one model then change targets at the end. So he can leap in a group of models and use his charge attacks on different models to split up a group. Of course if you're still engaged then you can't take the bonus shot, but that's okay. It turns Schill into a force to be reckoned with, and throwing models around can really deny some scheme/strat points. And IMO makes him so much more fun to play. the other problem with your crew is that I'd argue you need a big model. All your models in there are fairly weak. Hannah, Lazarus, or Strongarm Suit are probably the best additions. I take them more than Bishop these days, but he's another solid addition. Get one of those models to start with and you have a fairly hard hitting and solid model. Hodgepodge Emissary is another option that plays support. I've never taken engage at will. I see the point in it but I'd rather take survivalist. Although perhaps the Hard to Kill is less important if he's getting positive flips to defence against select models. How are you using engage at will @Freman?

Yep. And don't forget it's defensive flips too. Throw Schill into a crowd, toss a few models around, then Lazarus' autocannon has the luxury of choice. I've been thinking about other models that you may want to throw models into base contact with. Eg throw a model into base contact with bishop and even if they attack bishop, they might get hit back. That sort of thing. Throw models near librarian to lose their built-in suits.

I've been spending all 3AP on turn one handing 1 to himself, and 2 more to other models - usually librarian and lazarus/strongarm/hannah (whichever Friekorps beater I'm playing). Librarian because furious casting at can be pretty nasty. But I've been thinking more that perhaps it could also be effective handing it out to scheme runners - eg helping a Friekorpsmann leg it up to the corner to drop a scheme marker, that sort of thing. Or to somebody who is in position for a scheme marker to get them to drop 2 in a turn. Not needing an TN to hit makes handing out oathkeeper a pretty powerful ability and there are probably a number of ways to use it other than playing into his new upgrades. But I was also thinking about your idea a bit too. I mean, doing that, it's theoretically possible for vS to get 10 attacks in a turn, with a lot of , and move up to 31"............

Yeah so....where are you getting Armor 5 from? Armour 2 built in, each engineer can add Armour 1.... Heh, he could tarpit the Viks at Armour 5......