Euclid (#ScottishMeta)

1 hour ago, trikk said:

I'm not a NB player but I can tell you one thing. If Butterfly Jump is an NPE for them, then OH BOY, THEY ARE IN FOR A RIIIIIIIIDE

I guess its more when I'm playing a zoraida crew where pretty much everything in my crew has butterfly jump or stealth (or both) XD

I'll be happy to keep playing it if it stays as is - its just a very negative experience for all my opponents so far.

So i've played quite a few games with this upgrade now.  Trying it on various different hard to kill models in our faction - Bad Juju, Hooded Rider, Teddy etc.

Buttefly jump on these models is waay too strong.  I've been playing with this EXTREMELY fairly, making sure to constantly remind my opponents that I have butterfly jump so they aren't wasting AP by charging in and only getting one attack, etc.

I know this has been brought up before, but this upgrade hasn't changed for a long time - so Wyrd presumably thinks this is OK?  What are all your thoughts?

3 hours ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said:

Patch changed LOS for upgrade to be from Zoraida.  
That said, any idea why the cost of the doll increased?  It isn't hireable, so it is only summoned.  So why have a cost?

future proofing for possible GG schemes? I do not actually know.

1) As always with this type of master v situational.  Depends on the strats and schemes and what you want to achieve that turn.

2) I probably use this far too much.  I love using all my cards during Zs activation and then getting a fresh hand.  If you are discarding less cards than your opponent then i'd nearly always do it.  You can also put people in odd situations with this ability by going for a feint - during Zoraidas activation on turn 3 they will know what this ability does so they will be more likely to cheat as their cards are "meaningless", you can possibly get them to discard their good cards to no effect if you save your cards and don't use the ability.

3) Don't focus on this. Its not really worth it.  The only thing that I like is Adversary(X) from the wicked doll, but even then its a very situational hire.

I am a big fan of the juuj.  If you are worried at all about survival throw on the butterfly jump upgrade - that is stupid on the swamp monster.

15 hours ago, conykchameleon said:

I don’t feel that line of reasoning is outdated. My only data point here is that Zoraida seems very strong for Cursed Idols because of her very strong Obey.

She's also a good choice into Plant Explosives because of the super mobile hires she brings (silurids/first mate) and being able to push her crew up or make interacts happen out of sequence.

I too don't have much more to add to this aside from being interested in seeing how everything develops as we get past beta and into a maturing competitive environment.

It also means you don't need to do weird actions / hires to "set up" what to remove

A fair few masters end up this way.  Arcanist Marcus gets access to the Razorspine Rattler from out of faction, Neverborn Marcus gets access to around 8 chimera models from Arcanists.

10 minutes ago, kaintxu said:

@Euclid (#ScottishMeta) my comment for Zoraida is as a second Master on a Dreamer crew. As a master herself withing her crew I think she is perfectly fine

Fair.  I mostly disagreed with the use of the terminology "nerf" while we are in a constant flux of re-balancing in Beta, its one of my pet peeves.  

9 minutes ago, Andrew James Princep said:

The voodoo curse has loads of synergy with the crew, and I cant see how you missed this, which is what your post seems to imply.

The voodoo curse is the weakest part of Zoraida's toolkit from my experience so far.  It is not worth the effort to take models in your crew if their main purpose is to put conditions on the doll.  (not saying a wisp and adze aren't good models in general, I do like what they bring)

1 hour ago, Erik1978 said:

Has anyone noticed something effecient when it comes to stacking conditions on voodoo doll?

Not stacking, but a wicked doll can throw adversary of your choice on it.

23 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

I didn't even think about casting Poisoned fate. Why would you ever want to cast that instead of either Hex or Obey?

I think you are missing the power in this ability here.  For one, this damage isn't from an attack so would get around incorporeal - right?  This ability is best used when punishing a model.  Put it on them and then force duels - they either cheat and take damage or let you hit them... and take damage.  I agree it's not as overtly powerful as her other abilities but I wouldn't call it useless.

I completely agree with you on the voodoo doll.  I tried to use it as a scrap generator in my last game with Vasilisa but the curse is not worth it, and can't even be applied when Zoraida isn't within ~13" of the target model...

I was more thinking that if the crew did more with stunned then it would make Penetrating Stench more than just "flavour text"....

Also I feel like those two crews you have picked are some of THE MOST thematically synergistic - Euripides specifically (I have had most games with that big ol lad).

I've yet to play with Zoraida's crew (thats tonight job) but isn't this the same as most other crews?  A lot of them seem to share an ability (like penetrating stench here) and maybe something that ties to the master (Zoraida drawing LoS/Range - something that looks WAAAY too strong at 12" to me).  

If it was felt that the synergies weren't enough of a draw over faction versatile models I would suggest the following:

• Add to Penetrating stench:  "Enemy Models ending their activation engaged with this model do not end the stunned condition"
• Add triggers or abilities to the swampfiend models that "play" with stunned, spreading it or dealing more damage etc.

Oh yeah i know that for sure.  Just anticipating people being people and arguing 

4 minutes ago, bsm86 said:

It's still up to the opponent to decide the order in which he resolves the simple duels. So at least he/she has some sort of influence on who fails and who won't.

can't wait for the first arguments around this then.... "you can't choose that one next we said we were doing it clockwise"  "yeah but you've just left the card on top, so I don't want to go with them anymore!"   😂

Yeah i checked this page but wasn't 100% sure if the "effect" was the WP duel or the entire Shockwave action.

I think after the duel makes most sense but does mean you can try to "set up" models to fail these sorts of effects.

More clarification threads - What is the correct timing for resolving Zoraidas Reading the Cards when working with effects such as Shockwaves and pulses?

Example:

Two enemy models (A, and B) are caught by Pandoras "Fear Given Form" attack and all are in Line of Sight of Zoraida. 

Model A takes the duel first and flips low, cheating to avoid the attack.  - Do i then use Reading the Cards before Model B takes its test or does the shockwave action need to fully resolve and then I read the cards for every cheat of fate?

Unexpected Connection - the 5" range is meaningless right?  This action doesn't target anyone.

I'm hoping that we don't need to be within 5" of the model with the Voodoo curse upgrade, or that the action we borrow now becomes range 5 (the only things I can think that this 5" would mean)

22 minutes ago, ADrake said:

Not quite on topic, but are you aware of the UK masters that occurred this weekend?

I almost mentioned this myself.  Thanks to you i'm trying 3E Z in my game tomorrow evening!

I think the trigger existing will be a large deterrent.  I cant see people trying to attack Pandy unless they know they can get the hit through, and even then they are likely taking damage from misery.  Sadly she isn't going to be the DF/WP7 monster she was in 2e.... but this is an entirely different game!

Just a reminder that this is going to be happening in TWO DAYS!  

Certainly looks like a trigger that was removed, but not fully.  

Important to add that M2E veterans will default to 50mm ice pillar markers - they don't specify a size so are the default 30mm size this edition.