magicpockets

^^ Sorry, I've clarified it above as both could occur. Nothing would stop the rat being summoned by Voracious Rats (unless I'm forgetting something on Levi's card?)

Re blessings, this is a good question. I personally feel there is a distinction here between abilities/triggers which summon DIRECTLY off the death (blessings of desolation/violition of magic) or those which summon INDIRECTLY because the death let the model use a separate talent (i.e. (0) Murderous) which then summoned the extra model.

That means (imo) that Levi would not be able to summon a model in this way, nor would Sonnia - whereas the Wicked Doll would.

I'm basing this on an explanation given a long time ago as a part of the Rule of Equivalency which said that whilst models could only generate one "counter" per base size, (0) Drain Blood was fine as the blood counter wasn't created by the model dying but by a talent used after the model dies. Whilst RoE has been abandoned, I would guess that the same logic still applies here.

To help generate an answer, there's two approaches here -

1. The model isn't being summoned from the rat but from the talent of the model killing the rat and so isn't affected by voracious rats (but the Hamelin player still gets his rat as per Voracious Rats)

2. The model IS effectively summoned from the death of the rat, is therefore subject to voracious rats and - as "cannot" rules trump "can" rules - no model can be summoned

I'm not sure which will be ruled, but hopefully that will help.

And, on a side, if Levi casts his spell which sacrifices the rat, he gets his (EDIT) Waif and no rat is generated as Voracious Rats is when a model is killed, not sacrificed

We've noticed this too, decided it was a case of "rules is rules"

Thank you for all the ideas guys. I'm going to play a few more games without aSomer, Opehelia or the pigapult first, but I'll be back to look at these suggestions

Are you SURE "no" is the right answer? If Zoraida obeys An enemy model to do reclaim Malifaux she gets the credit for it (iirc)

Most players agree that Somer needs few stones (including me btw). But there is one thing I find hard to manage. How do you deal with tough luck considering starting Hand? He needs 11+ to get a bro and you will have roughly 1 on avarage in your first 5 cards, but you can easily have 0 with a tiny bit of unluck. So you start turn 1 and spend say 2 of your 3 stones to get the Gremlin factory rolling? Or rather sacrifice one with Larva to get a Mosquito and 2 cards and pray for high ones?

One I'm still new at Somer but my gut would be take the full 8ss with him then if you need to use one for git yer bro you can - paying 1ss is still better than buying one for 2ss?

Considered taking a Rat to sac with Larva? Should help get around the wounds problem.

Dom, can you explain why this is different to saccing a gremlin?

EDIT - Ahhhh, got it. The rat heals the skeeters as they're vermin too - nice

My initial reaction is that it's "OP" so to speak, but we'll see how we go. I just get the impression that used right Gremlins can lay down so much damage that they're much more powerful than people give them credit for, I think we're in for "Somer is broken" but it's still early days. They are reminding me of when I started with Pandora though for some reason.

Just played my first two games with Somer against Oshova to start learning his mechanics, it was very interesting

First 25ss game I stuck with Piglets, Gremlins and Skeeters and lost to Chompy 8-0, but I got a feel for the mechanics and learnt from a few mistakes. Second game (35ss) was against LadyJ and I stuck to the same core but added in Raphael and Rami who I used to use with Zoraida, and won 8-0. Thoughts -

1. Pull my finger is brilliant and I'm surprised it doesn't have a resist. Between a few shots from Rami and PMF from 3x Skeeters and Somer LadyJ just died to wound attrition
   
2. The card strip spell is great but I felt it was difficult with Skeeters on low wounds (I'm wondering if that's why they only tart with three wounds?)
   
3. I need to get more sophisticated with wound resource management, I feel in hindsight I was overusing Reckless (esp on Bayou Gremlins) and leaving them with very few wounds
   
4. Somer is a much less offensive Master than I'm used to and that's a bit strange to play. I did get a few shots off, but most of the time found myself summoning gremlins and giving out healing flips (he can give these to himself to right?)
   
5. piglets are awesome with Pigcharge, I love the ht and run approach they have
   
6. Gremlins are insane fast and can very quickly cover a lot of ground which seems great fr late objective runs
   
7. I found myself turtling a lot - is that he right approach?
   

Overall though, VERY impressed - and that's two games in and without Ophelia or a Pigapult

They're awesome in a Hamelin crew for things like deliver the message and destroy the evidence - but I'm guessing that doesn't help you much

generally i take a crew that can deal with the strategy i am playing

And that ladies and gentlemen, is the best piece of Malifaux advice you'll ever be given

^^ You'd be surprised, didn't you hear Stolen were Rare 3?

Anything that isn't a WP->13 style duel really

My hope is that it will only slightly alter the things that do need changed, not a full blown restructure.

+1 as he doesn't need anything but a couple of tweaks to rebalance him, oh - and people need to earn to play against him *wink*

He's still tier one, just not tier "0" as people seem to think - and overall Hamelin is a much stronger Master than Levi, same for the crew. That said, Levi gives you a lot of diversity in model choices and seems to be less "hated" by the majority

Fairly sure this was ruled to only apply to strike attacks. A ruling I didn't agree with but there you go.

Can't find the ruling because of broken search box, but I can promise 100% that this is correct. I know as I was the guy trying to argue it the other way *wink*

No hard feelings at all, I'm one of the thickest skinned people on here and love a good debate - don't ever worry about "offending" me

I think there's a couple of gaps in how we see things which are leading to our clash on views, notably how Hamelin plays - you can't get a feel for the balance of bully in a game unless you know this. On paper Bully seems OP/unfair but in practice it's actually what Hamelin does instead of killing you (well, I play him to kill stuff instead of make it insignificant - but that's a whole different discussion about the best way to play him)

Re Leveticus, I wasn't referencing his melee attack but his 2AP combination that can kill any 9wd model and bag him an SPA from 12" (iirc). I think it's a good comparison with Bully as it shows how the talents are different but still balance - for example Hamelin can achieve his "cuddle" of your model in 1AP, but it requires him sacrificing one of his own models, the effect can be removed, and only limits a couple of aspects of your model's behaviour. Levi needs 2AP but can kill you (ignoring armour as well), from which you have no come back and no further functionality.

That said, you understand my point and I think what's really the issue here is that you don't like effects like Bully -

Being alive but not being able to do what I want creates a feeling of helplessness and futility that is not conducive to a fun experience at the table.

However, whilst I accept your opinion, just because you don't "like" it doesn't mean it's either broken or in need of an errata.

As for your third point, I feel you weaken your own argument here. You have stated that you don't feel it's fair that Gremlins take an auto lose pretty much to Hamelin, which according to your own arguments Bully shouldn't have any bearing on, since their models can do everything else in the game and being unable to go after one model shouldn't affect this, but if you are honestly being consistent in your beliefs then your recommendation should be that in a tournament an outcast player should never select Gremlins to be their crew if they don't know who their outcast opponent is. An Outcast player has other options than bringing Gremlins so if they bring them and their opponent happens to be Hamelin, too bad.

I'm not sure what your point is here because I agree with everything you've said. For me, Gremlin's facing an auto-cuddle isn't fair - they have so few model choices which aren't ht1 that they can't do anything about Bully. That said, in the current iteration of the rules, if you take Gremlins against an unknown Outcast Master and you get Hamelin, that's your own fault. Same as if you take constructs against an unknown Guild Master and pull Hoffman - you're in for some bad times ahead.

Re Adanedhel's post, I understand what you're saying about Collodi and Ramos, but -

1. It's different to Gremlins as you "can" take models which aren't ht1

2. Malifaux is faction:faction so you don't have to take Collodi or Ramos against an unknown Outcast Master - same as with taking Gremlins

That said, I'm way ahead of you and it's why I think Bully should be affected the same way as his hiring restrictions (rather than just not affecting Gremlins as has been suggested in the past). By making it Gremlins, Constructs and Leaders you avoid both Ramos and Collodi being affected unduly by Hamelin's Bully with their "usual" play-style.

To be honest guys (whilst I'm not precluding Fetid's right to reply obviously) I think we've done this Bully thing to death!

Alright you lot, leave me alone....

/runs off crying and hides

The problem is search is broken (and not in an OP way!) so stuff is really hard to find now. It's a conspiracy I tell you

I NEED THE PROOF!

/runs off crying.

I have searched, but this new search function is rubbish and makes it hard to find things!

My last words on the Bully debate with Fetid Stumpet (depending on a reply obviously) -

1. First no were have you answered my point about facing Bully being better than being dead, and that having limits placed on the use of your character is better than them just being killed - especially as you can remove/get around bully but you'll struggle to remove/get around being dead. For example -

From a design standpoint I am not in favor of any ability in the game that imposes a condition which affects targeting for which there is no escape clause, period.

So, you're against models being killed then?

2. I've now realised that you don't see Malifaux in the same way - or the issue of Hamelin in the same way as me. I like the diversity of the Masters and abilities in Malifaux whereas you seem to want to reduce every crew to being a differently dressed up variant of the exact same thing (evident from you justifying Hamelin being "broken" by saying my comparisons to unique play-styles of other masters are unfair as they're also broken). That means whereas I'm coming at that from "let's try and balance very diverse Masters so that players with different game styles can have a fair fight" you seem to be coming at it from "let's try and get rid of every ability which is different or unusual and make the crews vanilla". To me that's not what Malifaux is about

3. As for crew selection, I agree there's an issue that you don't know which master your opponent is taking, but that cuts both ways - you declare Neverborn and I have to build my crew based on the very different play-styles of the potential Masters and minions I'd be facing. So my advice is - if you're opponent declares Outcasts as their faction - look at the strategy they've got, consider their play history, think about what models they own - and build your crew accordingly. If you take a load of ht1 models against an Outcast opponent when you don;t know which Master they'll be taking, really that's your own fault.

magicpockets, though he does not have any spells worth focussing, Leveticus has Casting Expert, if you're not aware of this, then your Leveticus crew is going to get lots more deadly from now on (just kidding oc, I know you know it )

lol - okay, I don't play any masters who have casting expert where channeling spells matters

Yeah, it was ruled a long time ago that these "may" doesn't matter as they can choose to discard the cards, and then ignore the requirement to discard cards and not do so

MP probably just made a typo... or he's been cheating this whole time! ... more likely a typo.

Or more likely I've been cheated lol - I dont play any models with Casting Expert, but have often faced them.... I'll be sure to bear this in mind

And Hamelin does ignore Headshot afaik - synonyms aside *wink*

Magicpockets is an expert with Hamelin.

Magicpockets says that Bully is not broken.

Therefore Bully is not broken.

No,

MagicPockets is an expert with Hamelin (I'll give you that one)

MagicPockets has given a reasoned explanation why he feels Bully isn't broken - especially compared to models being killed

Fetid Stumpet has given no reasons other than "I don't like Bully"

When challenged Fetid Strumpet seems to have no valid reason so resorts to personal slurs etc

Therefore Bully is not broken

If you could please just address in a logical well reasoned argument your reasons that justify why Hamelin, and ONLY in regards to Hamelin, deserves to have an ability that says "NO", and stops interactons, vs one which still allows and opponent to have some chance of targeting him, such as Pitiful, Harmless, and Irresistible do?

All masters have this, it's calling killing your crew. Have you not noticed Hamelin SUCKS at dealing damage from range and even his melee attack is a double edged sword? He takes you out via insignificant rather than killing you.

Again I totally respect your opinions Magicpockets, but your counter argument seemed to be along the lines of "Other things in the game are possibly broken so this is fine".

Where have I said this?

Bully is a flat "NO" to interacting, especially with the power piece on Hamelin's side of the board.

No, it ONLY stop you interacting with Hamelin - don;t give people the impression it's more than this.

I'm sorry this seems to be making you upset, especially in your, I feel, incorrect assumption that this leads to a bad impression on new players. I feel that more discussion is always good, and that any elements of the game that are controversial, as is Hamelin's mechanics, should be brought up to new players. Knowing about the issue, and then making up your own mind about it to agree or disagree is far better than being blindsided by it.

I'm not upset for my sake, I'm just annoyed because you're (imo) very wrong and giving people a very wrong opinion of the game and the mechanic. Come back with a valid reason why you're right and an answer to my comparison to models killing you instead of making you insignificant and then I'm happy to discuss it, but as it stands I can't see any substance to your argument.

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------

I still stand my ground on the previous though, you defend Bully working against insignificant by way of saying; yes, but you can resist the duel, or you can get rid of it by removing effects. You cannot resist being Ht1, and you can't get rid of it in any way (okay, growing would do it, but really, that's only tots), it's that inherent uselessness vs Hamelin that is the gamebreaker to me here, while you can try to counteract Insignificant, I'd like you to try counteracting Ht1.

The answer is not to take ht 1 models - I know that's a bit "basic" but it's the same as not taking Constructs against Hoffman. That said, this is why I'm so keen for bully not to affect Gremlins as that IS unfair imo. And let's not forget, Bully only stops ht1 targeting Hamelin - they can still do EVERYTHING else.