Math Mathonwy

That's certainly a fourth very different approach! But Out For Blood with a Pool of four and Mancha Roja (who tends to use Stones for Triggers as well as to stay alive) seems weird? I used to take Out for Blood a lot but it really wasn't worth it for me. I've been much happier with Mah ever since I dropped it. Making it work against SS users is really tricky, though, since all of the three required Triggers are after damaging. And Arm Lock doesn't necessarily do anything as it can be overcome with SS. Though naturally it can be very costly in SS for the opponent. But OTOH if you fail an assassination attempt with Mancha, he tends to get pulverized by the return attention. I may sound like a negative nanny but I do love different takes and I will probably test Mancha with Mah in the future. So thank you for the list, even if I disagreed with it a bit.

Did we just post three lists with the only common model between them being Mah herself? And Little Lass in two of the lists? Ummm... Wow. Whoever said that Gremlins lack viable choices? But goes to show how versatile Mah is! I wonder if any other Master would produce three list suggestions with zero overlap in models (discounting totems)?

The only autotakes for me are Raphael (with Dirty Cheater) and a Slop Hauler (I'm old school like that). Little Lass has always been in my lists but she isn't optimal as such. Other than those, I often take a Mech Pork, a Taxidermist, and Trixiebelle. Common pics are also a Banjonista, Crier, The Sow, Francois, Crier, Sammy, Bayou Gremlins, Merris, Iron Skeeter, even Sparks (not optimal!). My exact list for the first tournament game (Public Executions), for example, was Mah (Manifest Destiny, Know the Terrain, Liquid Bravery) (7 Pool) Little Lass (Pit Traps) Trixiebelle (A Gun for a Lady) Raphael (Dirty Cheater) Taxidermist (Dirty Cheater) Mech Pork 2 x Slop Hauler

I realize that it's not GG-legal but just to throw this one out there - I use the lowest one of these Hell Dorado Lemures:

It's for a new Faction called Hats. He's a Master, the Dandy Dead are Minions. I hope that next week we'll see the Henchman and then the Mascot for the first starter for the Hats Faction.

That sounds like a fair assessment. Mah might edge out over Wong in some pools and certain tables but yeah, agreed! I don't have Survivors but those do seem like they would really sing with Mah. Strongly considering picking them up. I also really should build my Whiskey Golem. He is such a beast in Supply Wagons! But unfortunately I have the Nightmare version so that's what? 68 parts or something? And impossible to transport Yeah, taking two certainly seems like too much discard. But man I was quite blown away by taking one. If the table has good choke points, I think that Pit Traps is a really good deal. Little Lass certainly could be a stone less, agreed. She is definitely a "fun" choice as opposed to being the "optimal" choice. Sammy with Pit Traps for four more is a consideration, I suppose. More card swapping as well!

This is going to be a bit of a disjointed ramble. Bear with me. And feel free to engage with anything or just talk about Mah in general. I won a small tournament last weekend using Mah twice and Wong once. Manifest Destiny is absolute gold. Get Off My Land every turn is bonkers good. It of course allows you to reach silly far but it also allows you to yo-yo back to safety. In the first game, which had Eliminate the Leadership in the pool, I used Mah mostly to Holler and then hop forward on the last activation and then back off again with Get Off My Land at the start of the next turn. In a practice game I used Get Off My Land to suddenly change course and attack a different area of the battlefield taking out a Scheme runner. Push 8", then Let Mah Handle This for a further 6" Push and suddenly you're really far away from where you started and you still have three AP to do stuff with. I used Hollering a ton. When using Mah as a beatstick I always tend to be a bit disappointed but Hollering is great stuff. Mah as a positioning piece is something I've advocated for a long time. Ca 5 is seen as bad but since you only need to tie against Wp (usually 5 or 6), I got it through against enemies a lot as well. And usually I used all my Mah AP on the first turn just to Push my own stuff around. The range is really good. What is the most potent defense in the game? It's not being there to be attacked in the first place and Mah is nowadays very good at that. Pushing 8" through Severe terrain and taking Disguised can keep her amazingly safe. In fact, in the two tournament games she wasn't attacked even once as it wasn't worth it. Her Initiative suit boost is something that I don't like relying on. I don't take a ton of Melee stuff and aim for Rams. I just take good stuff and take whatever boost I happen to get. Much happier that way. Bushwhackers are also really good. Their main problem is that they lack access to the third AP but with Get Off My Land they get a really amazing "AP" and it happens at an interesting time in the turn. 5SS and their Focus shot to 14" Ignoring Cover is really quite good. Now, I wouldn't use more than one since they are card hungry (even the Focus often eats a card for Damage, good though that may be) but one is certainly a contender. I really do think that when taking one, she is on par with a Lightning Bug which is pretty bonkers. Their 2 Wd shoot action when someone else misses is pretty useless. I mean, I guess if there's an enemy model with one Wound left it's worth it but otherwise I wouldn't take it. Cover against non- OTOH and their great statline - those are good! Pit Traps has been pretty potent. In the practice game it was good, in my first tournament game it was pure gold and in the second tournament game it didn't do much. In the first tournament game my opponent had godly hands and had to drop really high cards to Pit Traps. Even a 12! In the second tournament game the traps did affect my opponent's placing, so even if they seemingly didn't do all that much, they still did something. I used Little Lass for the Pit Traps but using both her and Bushwhacker put quite a bit of strain on my hand. Often when activating Mah I didn't have any cards I wanted to switch anymore and it's a bit sad dropping an 11 even if you get to draw afterwards. In the practice game I took a Crier but he was one-shot by a lucky three Severes on negatives so didn't help for long. Still, certainly a thing to consider. I also took a Banjonista and happened to get Tomes for Initiative so at least the Crier's death contributed two cards Mech Pork with Mah is good. Those positive to Charge Attacks are potent! And Bayou Two-card relieves pressure from her hand which is always good.

Everytime I notice @PolishSausagerespond to this thread my mind changes the topic title into "Our wurst models". ... I'm just massively sorry.

Two things mostly - the power level of the game rose by quite a bit while Somer's remained the same (he got nothing from the new Upgrades, and almost nothing from book 5 and the errata was mostly a negative for him) and GG18 came along emphasising survivability over numbers and AP. He isn't bad as such but he used to be Tier 1 and now is Tier 2. IMHO - others may disagree. Yeah. If he is good against your opponent, he will die. His effects have short range and he is super squishy. He is also a moderately expensive support model which is something that Gremlins already had an abundance of.

"Only Half a Brain: After this model finishes its activation, the opponent may choose another model with this Ability who has to activate as a chain activation." Abused it to death no less

I fully agree that something needed to be done (I'm with you that 2SS Totems can be balanced but 2SS hireable models without meaningful restrictions (Rare 6 isn't meaningful) are too much) but the gigantic 50% price increase didn't hit only the Pigapult but also made the Stuffeds basically extinct as anything aside from Taxidermist summons. Creative Taxidermy was a box that was commonly suggested for newbies because it was good value for all Masters even though it lazily included duplicate sculpts of the Stuffeds. But now it's very much not at the top of recommendations. With Flying Piglets the point was made multiple times during the beta that no one is ever going to hire these yet they were still released in the state where they are obviously over-costed as hires. So were I to buy their box (the minis are great!) I'd have no less than nine summon-only models for my two Taxidermists. Which is completely crazy!

Exactly - our non-existent 2SS hiring pool sucks!

There are, IMO, huge differences between how good a certain SS bracket is in different factions. Ressers have amazing mid-cost models while their more expensive ones have traditionally been a bit lackluster. Neverborn tend to have great stuff in the middle and high cost echelons while their cheap stuff is often a bit below par. Gremlins' 9+SS bracket is rather sad but our 5-7 and 2-3 used to be truly stellar. Now our 5-8 is great and our 2-3 is far less so, compared to others. I always found those differences a part of faction identity but it has been muddied quite a bit lately (as have other parts of faction identity).

I think that GG18 favours durability more than the previous GGs and Bayou Gremlins are, even with Bayou Two-card and Squeel, IMO squishier than Desperate Mercs let alone Guild Guard. Bayou Gremlins are nicely versatile and independent and certainly worth their points, IMO, but I feel that the game has moved in ways which make me jealous of Guild Guard and Desperate Mercs and I'm not sure which ones I would pick if I had access to all three (well, and they had the relevant types for synergies) while before I felt that BGs were the undisputed kings of their price class.

Dreamer is another, I believe. (Can't remember - it might be technically playable by taking the Summoning Upgrade but you won't have anything to Summon from it). Some dual faction Master boxes are also pretty impossible if you're going for a different faction than the one intended in the box (Guild McMourning is completely out and Gremlin Zoraida is technically possible, but sucks a lot, and there may be others I'm forgetting).

Note the difference in noses:

Congrats on the win! As for your analysis on Three Demon Bag - well I can see the utility and the flexibility that it offers as a non- attack but I'm still not sure that it is good use for Master AP to shooting with something that is essentially Collodi's Attack without the crazy Triggers (and without in-built to the Damage Flip). And paying 2SS for the privilege to boot! Bacon Curse should be baked in - then the attack would have at least some merit. And the Upgrade should probably cost 0SS as well

My reasoning behind putting her into Tier 2.5 was precisely the fact that she has some bad match-ups. In my mind the difference between tiers 2 and 2.5 is that 2.5 has weaknesses that might hit you while 2 doesn't (at least not to the same degree). Now, this thing naturally falls a bit flat if someone is really superb (tier 1.5) but has some specific bad match-ups so I'm not iron-clad opposed to moving her to 2. As for Lynch, yeah, he was one I almost put into 1.5. He is really good but he is somewhat vulnerable to fast things that can mulch him.

Yeah - I haven't seen the new Hoffman on the field so that was completely outdated information. Before the new stuff he was counterable but his new Upgrades took away his weaknesses so I do believe you. Well, I doubt he's tier 1 as those are sorta the disruptive Masters but I could easily see him at 1.5.

I think Raphael is an apple while Burt is an orange. Raphael excels in solitude while Burt requires friends. I usually play them very different from one another using them for different things.

You mean the colour of whiskey? ... ...really bad whiskey...

First Guild steal our Mercs so they get nerfed and now they steal conversations about our lists as well! They truly are the bad guys of Malifaux!

You convinced me. I upgraded Lady Justice to Tier 2 and dropped Levi to Tier 2. I mean, since this is the official tier list, I guess that things like this should be fixed!

I think that Schill still has the problem that his crew is a bit low on AP to "waste" on Interacting plus it isn't very mobile. I mean, he can hire dedicated Scheme runners naturally but if those get neutralized, he has more trouble than most in coming up with new answers. And yeah, I agree that Mah is very competitive these days but I feel that Zipp still kinda outshines her. He is even more mobile, arguably a better beater (in that he is more of an answer to things that Gremlins have trouble with while she is "just" a regular beater), similarly disruptive, and has card tricks as well through his Rambling. I could be wrong, though. Lady Justice is certainly a good option these days. Maybe she should be Tier 2, agreed. At the very least she is super close to it.

Levi and Von Schill were ones I really wasn't at all sure about. Mah I put in 2.5 because of Zipp. If he didn't exist, Mah would be comfortably Tier 2, IMO. As for Mama Z - yeah, I feel that NB Zoraida could probably be Tier 1.5. Good input, thank you!