Rotten Belles - a happier redux

[Fetid Strumpet]

You make the mistake that I personally am setting the criterion of proof, when it's Justin and the other developers at Wyrd who determine that. Justin has said that he isn't cuddling the Belles, or the Guild Austringer, or we can infer the Witchling Stalker, or Nekima, or The Hungering Darkness, or Jakob, or the Illuminated, end of story.

 

The only way any errata of the aforementioned models will occur, I suspect, will be the same as what constituted proof last edition, consistent data from multiple groups, and more importantly, multiple repeated wins at big, multi-meta tournaments, where the winners, high placements in the Tournament consistently use the same list over and over, AND it can be determined that a single piece of the puzzle breaks it.

 

It took multiple years for Hamelin and the Dreamer to be errata'd, so I would personally expect about the same timeline and proofs before anything model wise is adjusted much at all.

 

Additionally, as I mentioned before, changing the rules on a synergistic minion is not as easy as changing them on a big unique not specifically tied to one crew. Seamus was tested and determined to be balanced with the level of survivability that a Ca8 Lure currently gives. Changing his default minion of choice changes that survivability significantly, which in turn changes the balance between his limited upgrades. As said previously, you can certainly hold the view that the master is OP as well and needs to be toned down, but again that is another issue added into the complex affair.

 

Say for example we held the belief that the Steam Arachnid was OP. 4 SS for a quick, Df6, armor 2 model, who can not only fuse into bigger model, but also reduces df of models in b2b. If we reduced the df of the arachnid to 3 or 4 it would affect not only the arachnid, but it would have a serious impact on Ramos, part of whose balance is predicated on being able to summon df 6 spiders. Whereas if Justin eventually decides to take action on another hot topic of OP conversation, the Mechanical rider, it will be much easier because the rider itself isn't tied so closely into how the balance of a particular master goes.

 

The conversation one way or another is certainly beneficial, and serves a purpose, but at the end of the day unless you can prove that the model's are breaking the game, they aren't going to change, and that level of proof, again I suspect but do not KNOW, is basically to continually win and place high in the few massive multi-meta tournaments that occur throughout the year.

 

If a Belle spam, list won Adepticon, Gen Con, the UK masters, and placed highly in almost every other tournament that was reported throughout the year, you might have a better argument that they need changing, although that would then start another conversation about what changes needed to occur, and I can assure you a simple change wouldn't be the end of it by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

The other potential proof, and in fact more definitive one, is if Justin tried it himself and agreed with the sentiment that something was broken. He has publicly stated he doesn't agree the Belles or any of the other hot topic models are broken at this point in time. 

 

As it is you have a stronger, though still very weak argument, that something is broken in arcanists, than that Belles need an errata. 

[Justin]

Pretty much all the views I have on this: http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/100296-buffing-vs-nerfing/?p=719064

[Lucidicide]

Pretty much all the views I have on this: http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/100296-buffing-vs-nerfing/?p=719064

 

Psh. Like YOUR opinion matters.

[RagingRodian]

To Fetid- I wasn't meaning you specifically set the criteria, more of a general "you", and now that I read that again I see I should have worded it better.

I would point out that the proof that you would ask for, in the form of repeatedly winning tournaments, is flawed. This has already been pointed out by Sharpobjects and myself- Rotten Belle lists not placing at Adepticon, nor being under represented, does not in any way mean that they aren't a problem. It just shows that people didn't take them, and there are at least a dozen reasons why that have no bearing on the relative strength of Belles. It is an unreasonable benchmark, and the idea needs to be abandoned.

Actual play, done correctly, will result in far more information, does not artificially skew the results towards the tournament set, and avoids the "all or nothing" thinking attached to relying on winning at a tournament. We are also not artificially constrained to tournament schedules, we can play as we please.

We also do not have to redesign completely from scratch if we make any changes. Changes have already been made to other things in the game without a nuke it from orbit and start all over approach, why would we need to here?

Now, what I am about to say may make some people a bit twitchy, and for that I apologize. Scientifically speaking, the best way to see if Belles are still good models with a Ca 6 on Lure is to play games, under correct situations (no conveniently showing up with Belle killing lists or taking advantage of advanced knowledge!), using multiple Belles with a Ca 6 Lure. Change one variable to test the hypothesis. It is our game, we are allowed to do that, the Malifaux police are not going to show up in your dining room. After several games report the results, and you will have very solid evidence either showing that we are right or wrong.

Also, and no disrespect intended towards Justin, one person playtesting the problem and getting a result means a lot less when you have multiple people playtesting the same problem and coming up with a different result. The man also said he would be willing to change his mind if evidence is presented to the contrary.

[RagingRodian]

One or two meta group's experience does not equal proof.

 

Your counter points to 'Luring across the table and not Luring across the table' saying that it's a very flexible ability is true, but I'm confused by how you make this point.

 

Belles can pull a single model across the table or they can pull a short distance to pull to deny VP or mess with synergy....I get that. One of the anti-Lure tactics is to use positioning with the available terrain to mitigate the effects......so if I'm using that tactic on a model that you want to Lure across the table, then the Lure isn't as effective. You're saying that you can use the Lure any way you want and it will be effective.....but I know which models you are going to want to Lure.....so I use one of the anti-Lure tactics mentioned in this thread on that model. 

 

So, yeah it's flexible, but you can't Lure a model a couple of inches that you wanted to pull across the table and say it's just as good.

To the first point- no, it is not 100% proof. Of course not. But it is solid evidence, which is about as close to proof as we are getting at the moment.

To the second point- keep in mind that Belles can chain activate, and your model in terrain can be hit by as many as 4 Lures in a row before you get a chance to respond. Also, you always know which model your opponent will want to Lure? Now when you say you are using the anti-Lure tactics from earlier in the thread are you referring to any that rely on advanced knowledge of what faction you will be playing against or the fact that you are playing against Belles? Unfortunately much of the Anti-Lure tactics in this thread are tainted by this. Not saying you may get lucky and be able to apply some of them, but it isn't a given.

To the third point, obviously when you want to pull a model all the way across the board but only get a fraction of the movement you can't say it is always good. Again, you may get lucky with the victim's position anyways. You may get a discard trigger off and make the victim have to discard a good card. You may unnerve your opponent enough with the attempt to make them play overly cautious for the rest of the game. But no, why would I say it is always just as good?

[Kadeton]

Now when you say you are using the anti-Lure tactics from earlier in the thread are you referring to any that rely on advanced knowledge of what faction you will be playing against or the fact that you are playing against Belles? Unfortunately much of the Anti-Lure tactics in this thread are tainted by this. Not saying you may get lucky and be able to apply some of them, but it isn't a given.

This is the bit that puzzles me. For starters, you always have advance knowledge of what Faction you'll be playing against - that's part of the basic rules. If your opponent announces Ressers, you should expect some Belles and plan accordingly... but even if your opponent doesn't take any, you haven't lost anything. All the abilities that counter Belles are either useful in general (like Warding Runes) or don't add significantly to the cost of the model concerned (like immunity to being moved by enemy models) and are situationally useful anyway. There's no downside to saying "Hey, I might face some Lures here, I'll take some counters," just like you might say "I'm probably going to face some Terrifying here, I'll plan around that."

Oh, and the reason I'm surprised this thread is still running is not because there's a shortage of people who moan about them - it's because we've been told directly that they're not going to change. That seems like the end of any discussion about changing them. Start thinking about how to beat them instead.

[RagingRodian]

This is the bit that puzzles me. For starters, you always have advance knowledge of what Faction you'll be playing against - that's part of the basic rules. If your opponent announces Ressers, you should expect some Belles and plan accordingly... but even if your opponent doesn't take any, you haven't lost anything. All the abilities that counter Belles are either useful in general (like Warding Runes) or don't add significantly to the cost of the model concerned (like immunity to being moved by enemy models) and are situationally useful anyway. There's no downside to saying "Hey, I might face some Lures here, I'll take some counters," just like you might say "I'm probably going to face some Terrifying here, I'll plan around that."Oh, and the reason I'm surprised this thread is still running is not because there's a shortage of people who moan about them - it's because we've been told directly that they're not going to change. That seems like the end of any discussion about changing them. Start thinking about how to beat them instead.

Actually, we have been told directly that Justin doesn't currently feel that they need a cuddle, but will change his mind if evidence is presented to the contrary. The link is on the previous page in his post. That is very different from "they're not going to change". Admittedly, it is an uphill battle at this point that it does not mean the discussion is over.

You are correct, you do know what faction you are facing when you hire your crew. But in practical terms, if you have multiple factions in your collection you probably have one faction that has more anti-Resser and anti-Belle models than the other ones, and making sure people are aware that they don't know factions ahead of time when they declare their own faction prevents people from always conveniently picking their faction containing their anti-Resser/anti-Belle whenever they face Ressers. It isn't one of the bigger factors to consider but is a factor nonetheless.

As to choosing your crew to try to counter Lures, I would have to state again that if you are having to alter your potential list in anticipation of facing a 5 stone Minion something is wrong. Saying you should plan to see Belles just because you are facing Ressers is also foolish, as there are a huge amount of combinations and models that you could possibly be facing and you can't be expected to plan for everything. If you don't face Belles you might actually be hindering yourself by planning around them. Nobody can seriously say, given advanced knowledge, that they would take the same crew against a Molly Horrors crew, a Kirai spirit crew, a Seamus or Nico Belle spam list, and a McMourning Flesh Construct list (or Nurses and movement shenanigans list), not to mention considering Schemes and Strategies. Even if you are not facing Belles they can be summoned in later.....or it may be a Drowned....or a Hanged.....a Rogue Necromancy...or whatever. This also assums the Ressers do not hire any mercs. Without advanced knowledge your ability to most effectively select and apply counters during hiring is going to be minimized.

[Kadeton]

You are correct, you do know what faction you are facing when you hire your crew. But in practical terms, if you have multiple factions in your collection you probably have one faction that has more anti-Resser and anti-Belle models than the other ones, and making sure people are aware that they don't know factions ahead of time when they declare their own faction prevents people from always conveniently picking their faction containing their anti-Resser/anti-Belle whenever they face Ressers. It isn't one of the bigger factors to consider but is a factor nonetheless.

Oh, I getcha. There's plenty of answers to Belles in any Faction, so I don't think it's a big concern.

As to choosing your crew to try to counter Lures, I would have to state again that if you are having to alter your potential list in anticipation of facing a 5 stone Minion something is wrong. Saying you should plan to see Belles just because you are facing Ressers is also foolish, as there are a huge amount of combinations and models that you could possibly be facing and you can't be expected to plan for everything. If you don't face Belles you might actually be hindering yourself by planning around them. Nobody can seriously say, given advanced knowledge, that they would take the same crew against a Molly Horrors crew, a Kirai spirit crew, a Seamus or Nico Belle spam list, and a McMourning Flesh Construct list (or Nurses and movement shenanigans list), not to mention considering Schemes and Strategies. Even if you are not facing Belles they can be summoned in later.....or it may be a Drowned....or a Hanged.....a Rogue Necromancy...or whatever. This also assums the Ressers do not hire any mercs. Without advanced knowledge your ability to most effectively select and apply counters during hiring is going to be minimized.

It's not that you're planning around Belles so much as you have to be aware of how your opponent can affect you at range. If you're facing Guild, you know they've got tons of mid-range shooting, so you should generally plan to take some Armor, some fast models, some cover auras or whatever other counters your Faction can muster. If you're facing Arcanists you can expect mostly spells and conditions at range, so you counter-pick that. If you're facing Ressers, the only ranged threat they can usually project is Lures, so you counter-pick that. The problem is not that Belles are too good, it's that Ressers can't get anything else for downfield influence.

Facing any of the crews you listed, I would assume they were going to include at least one Belle. Belles are ranged utility, which is something that Ressers otherwise completely lack - why wouldn't you take one? If I thought that the possibility of Belles was going to influence my ability to win the scenario, I'd definitely keep it in mind when picking my crew. That doesn't mean it's the only thing to keep in mind - you also have to consider how you're going to deal with Flesh Constructs, Punk Zombies, a Rogue Necro, Sebastian, Ikiryo, and so on - but the fact remains that you will never regret counter-picking Belles because the abilities that protect you from them are still good against plenty of other models.

[CreepingDeath]

Having read this thread this morning. All I have managed to pick up is people from Chicago have a problem with belle's and wants them hit with the bat while everyone else seems to manage just fine.

I'm more than likely wrong, just saying what I see

[mythicFOX]

As to choosing your crew to try to counter Lures, I would have to state again that if you are having to alter your potential list in anticipation of facing a 5 stone Minion something is wrong. Saying you should plan to see Belles just because you are facing Ressers is also foolish, as there are a huge amount of combinations and models that you could possibly be facing and you can't be expected to plan for everything.

 

IMHO this is actually what meta-game play is all about.  

 

If a model approaches a problematic power level it will impact on the meta-game and become highly prevalent. At which point it's correct to assume all your opponents will take them. This then leads to some players gaining an advantage by not taking the assumed model and invalidating their opponents choices. This is how meta-games evolve.

 

Reading and predicting the meta-game is an important skill, to argue you cannot account for meta-game invalidates a skill of the game.

 

If it's powerful enough to be called OP / broken then it's powerful enough to move the meta-game and see counters routinely deployed to combat it.

[wizuriel]

If it's powerful enough to be called OP / broken then it's powerful enough to move the meta-game and see counters routinely deployed to combat it.

 

I think this is one of the problems right now is there doesn't feel like enough counters to the problem. As a guild player the only one I really feel that works against it is to bring Sonnia with the counter spell aura upgrade (granted for other reasons to she is usually my first choice against ressers).

[admanb]

Having read this thread this morning. All I have managed to pick up is people from Chicago have a problem with belle's and wants them hit with the bat while everyone else seems to manage just fine.

I'm more than likely wrong, just saying what I see

 

That's a pretty accurate assessment. Both of the Belle threads have pretty much been Sharpobjects and RagingRodian vs. Everyone.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don't agree with them, but that is, to my mind, an unfair characterization of the argument, and an uncalled for singling out of two very thoughtful individuals. There are some other scattered individuals who also agree with them.

 

I would personally characterize it in the manner that there are some individuals who have a philosophical problem with a model with a cost of Rotten Belles, with an attack stat of 8. 

 

There is a sub group in that group who also have a player or player(s) in their local meta who have discovered a list that they personally have trouble playing against.

 

*shrug* They aren't in any objective sense, wrong. Nor are they in any objective sense, correct either. The conversation is what at this point is beneficial and useful. I don't in any way, shape, or form agree with them, but to me the argument that it is just them seems to me to be an attempt to belittle their concerns, which I feel isn't as useful.

[Clement]

I think this is one of the problems right now is there doesn't feel like enough counters to the problem. As a guild player the only one I really feel that works against it is to bring Sonnia with the counter spell aura upgrade (granted for other reasons to she is usually my first choice against ressers).

Speaking as a resser player, the Ortegas generally have very high wp stats also. That won't shut down lure as hard as counterspell aura, but it will certainly cut into its effectiveness.

[Justin]

Actually, we have been told directly that Justin doesn't currently feel that they need a nerf, but will change his mind if evidence is presented to the contrary. The link is on the previous page in his post. That is very different from "they're not going to change". Admittedly, it is an uphill battle at this point that it does not mean the discussion is over.

 

 

Well, to clarify my statement further, I feel the same way about the belle as I do any other model in the game. If it proves to be a problem, I have no issues changing it. A closed mind does not a good developer make. But as things sit I'm about as likely to errata the belle as I am the moleman, or the ronin, or the guild guard...

[dgraz]

Well, to clarify my statement further, I feel the same way about the belle as I do any other model in the game. If it proves to be a problem, I have no issues changing it. A closed mind does not a good developer make. But as things sit I'm about as likely to errata the belle as I am the moleman, or the ronin, or the guild guard...

Don't get me started on Molemen............

[Ratty]

The Molemen definitely need a cuddle.

[Ratty]

because they are cute.

[DeleteAccount]

Well, to clarify my statement further, I feel the same way about the belle as I do any other model in the game. If it proves to be a problem, I have no issues changing it. A closed mind does not a good developer make. But as things sit I'm about as likely to errata the belle as I am the moleman, or the ronin, or the guild guard...

Molemen and Roning I'm not surprised, but guild guard are another hot topic model? My usual guilder seems to be allergic to them so never faced them.

[wizuriel]

Speaking as a resser player, the Ortegas generally have very high wp stats also. That won't shut down lure as hard as counterspell aura, but it will certainly cut into its effectiveness.

 

hmm I haven't really used the Ortegas yet, but iirc most of their WP is around 5-6 giving a fairly good advantage to the resser player getting the lure off. I know against my Lucius list it didn't work out so well (as soon as the sergeant got pulled out of place I pretty much had no control of how my models were moving near the center )

[Guy in Suit]

Taelor is very effective against both Belle's and the Mech Rider.

 

And hey look she is a Merc anyone can take!

 

MOAR TAELOR.

[RagingRodian]

I don't agree with them, but that is, to my mind, an unfair characterization of the argument, and an uncalled for singling out of two very thoughtful individuals. There are some other scattered individuals who also agree with them.

 

I would personally characterize it in the manner that there are some individuals who have a philosophical problem with a model with a cost of Rotten Belles, with an attack stat of 8. 

 

There is a sub group in that group who also have a player or player(s) in their local meta who have discovered a list that they personally have trouble playing against.

 

*shrug* They aren't in any objective sense, wrong. Nor are they in any objective sense, correct either. The conversation is what at this point is beneficial and useful. I don't in any way, shape, or form agree with them, but to me the argument that it is just them seems to me to be an attempt to belittle their concerns, which I feel isn't as useful.

I tip my hat to you Fetid! While we may disagree here there is no reason why we can't respect each other. We are debating rules to a game played with little toy soldiers, we don't have to belittle each other or make things personal to "win" the argument!