Rotten Bells, Lure is too Much

[Tiny]

I was actually trying to nip the argument in the bud that belles have this high casting and do all this other stuff in a 5ss model whereas other 5ss models dont do extra stuff.

 

Ca 8 is high yes. Does it win games from having 6 belles luring, i dont think so. But carry on.

[Morgan Vening]

The stat line of 8 is too high for a 5SS model. If you don't agree that's fine. No one is here to change your mind. This thread was started because a very large community of players were starting to get fed up with the power of Lure and they wanted to voice their grievance here. It was mainly to let the powers at be know. Wyrd cant read peoples minds. If you don't tell them you think there is a problem how else would they know. Justin posted on it and that's fine. The discussion can be placed on the back burner while we continue to play the game and see if the feelings of an issue remain and time goes by.

 

Like some have posted here already, many people don't even play ressers or use belle's often in their local community so to them there is no issue. I understand that there are a lot of opinions one way or another. Again one last time, CA 8 is a bit too high for a 5SS models that can reach out 18 inches with the spell.

I'm one of those players. Still haven't played or faced a Belle in 2nd Ed (opponent mostly play NB and Arc, I have played mostly Guild). I just wanted to point out that there's a disconnect in your argument.

 

Some people think that Belle Lure is overpowered, and you want PTB@Wyrd to take notice. But then you _seem_ to be suggesting that people with a differing opinion, mostly those using comparisons or showing counter-tactics, because they don't see Belle Lure overpowered, shouldn't.

 

If there isn't rational discourse, and if the opinion of people that do use/oppose them in their local meta that don't have a problem with them aren't heard, all that's going to be seen are complaints. I have no idea which side is in the majority (Belle Lure is fine/Belle lure is overpowered), but I wouldn't want to see this develop into something in which only the disaffected have voice.

 

As for my own opinion, I don't see a problem with Ca6, 7 or 8. Like I said, I've not used them. But for a model that doesn't seem like it has much of anything else going for it (other than being a roadblock), I'd be wary of weakening it's primary ability.

[Soundwave]

Lure, like many other things, are great if you are caught off-guard. But I honestly don't see them as "OP".

Would I still take them with a lower CA? Probably, but that's because I love Belles.

 

Just like many things in Malifaux, they're not that bad once you learn how to deal with them. If the day comes when Ressers win multiple tournaments due to belles, they might need a tweak. But right now, a change would just be...bad, and open up too much of the "this needs change too". Let's just learn how to play with and against what we have and accept it for a while - a million erratas and a "constant beta" would hurt the game more than the occasional "slightly above average" model.

[Aramoro]

I was about to point out Ashigaru, awesome 5pt models. Decent damage arc, good defense Armour + Hard to Kill. But then you get the the amazing bit. They can more or less stop important parts of your crew getting charged, and on top of that they get a (1) charge ability. So they can either Charge a model as far out as 10" (5" Walk + 3" Charge + 2" reach), or even more amazing if they are near an ancestor Charge, hit once, hit twice auto trigger a push of the enemy away, Charge, hit a third time, hit a 4th time... That's 4 attacks from a 5ss model, a 10" threat range, and the ability to stop counter charges.

 

 

Not to mention if in their core crew (with the upgrade on Yamaziko or Ototo) can put down Smoke walls or Teleport.

 

You're falling into a trap, like many other people in this thread, that because other models are good it means that we can ignore Belles. That's faulty logic because it doesn't address how Belles affect the game. Thing like the Ashigaru are great and have a positive affect for your crew the problem with Belle's is they have a negative affect for your opponents crew which is bad for the game. Against Belle spam you have to have your entire crew blocked light of sight or in severe terrain every turn or one of them if going to rocket off 18" across the table and die. That's a really negative play experience. You brought up Slop Haulers earlier, which heal a lot and that's great but your opponent has to have wounded you to have an effect and against it's providing a positive affect for your crew, not a negative to your opponents. That's the crucial difference here. 

 

Also people need to forget the hard counters to Belles as that's a bad road to go down. Yes Sonnia has a hard counter to Belles but this isn't Rock/Paper/Scissors where you have to luck out that you brought the hard counter to your opponents crew. 

 

The aim of M2E was to make the game simpler and so it's fun and interactive. There's nothing fun about 'Whoops you didn't bring a silver bullet crew' your dudes uncontrollably rocket across the table to their deaths one by one. If you try teaching the game to someone and use a Belle spam crew I can guarantee they wont play the game again because it's just not interactive. 

[Ratty]

You brought up Slop Haulers earlier, which heal a lot and that's great but your opponent has to have wounded you to have an effect and against it's providing a positive affect for your crew, not a negative to your opponents.

 

 

 

NPE is very subjective.

 

With the Slop Hauler, It works out as an extra 2 gremlins popping up every turn due to Get ya Bro, and also having someone like Rami gunning you across the board for a lot of damage due to Ram trigger and then healing up. This means you can't approach easily without getting shot up and every turn there are just more and more objective takers to deal with, it can feel like you can't deal with the gremlins faster than they spawn. Yes you can deal with it, but like the Belles it's about knowing how to.

 

I also find if you are hiding your crew every turn you are going to lose, the best defense against Belles is a strong offense.

 

And even if they were Ca 6, you could still spam them and they would still probably manage to rocket a model across the board. And there are plenty of other models that you can do this for example Performers, and all do other stuff on top of the lure. If you lowered the Belles Cast they would just be an inferior version of these other models.

[Dracomax]

Honestly, focusing just on belles, it sounds like the best choice is to move in such a way that you accept you'll lose a model a turn, but in the mean time, you get 3-4 models ganging up on belles.

 

I don't particularly like a 5SS model having a higher attack than all but maybe 2-3 masters, but I think it is yet to be seen if it is game breaking. I appreciate the argument of "the fact that other good models exist is not justification for Belles to be overpowered" but I also don't think you can look at a model totally in a void. You have to look at it in context of the crews it is used in, and the VP denial/gaining it is capable of. I think it might be a problem for those games that require models be in a certain place.

 

I don't think an inherent rare number for all models is a good fix. First, I really think if a model is balanced, you could have a crew consisting entirely of it and not have broken interactions; If the model becomes broken at a certain number, then the model itself should have a given rare number specifically set to avoid it. Just because someone doesn't like seeing 8 spiders or 6 belles is not in itself a reason to limit it. ANd quite frankly, the balance point is going to be different for every model.

 

Second, I think that doing so will actually hurt certain summoning masters with limited summoning selections, such as Levi or Ramos, and would go against both the design philosphy and balance of those models. These models were balanced with the expectation they would have larger numbers of these models on the board. Being tired of seeing it doesn't mean it is broken or needs to be fixed. That being said, I could see some justification for tweaks if they prove to be unbalancing to the game.

 

But mostly, I have a problem with it because it smacks of "you are playing the game wrong. Play it the way I want you to."

[Aramoro]

NPE is very subjective.

 

With the Slop Hauler, It works out as an extra 2 gremlins popping up every turn due to Get ya Bro, and also having someone like Rami gunning you across the board for a lot of damage due to Ram trigger and then healing up. This means you can't approach easily without getting shot up and every turn there are just more and more objective takers to deal with, it can feel like you can't deal with the gremlins faster than they spawn. Yes you can deal with it, but like the Belles it's about knowing how to.

 

I also find if you are hiding your crew every turn you are going to lose, the best defense against Belles is a strong offense.

 

And even if they were Ca 6, you could still spam them and they would still probably manage to rocket a model across the board. And there are plenty of other models that you can do this for example Performers, and all do other stuff on top of the lure. If you lowered the Belles Cast they would just be an inferior version of these other models.

 

It is subjective but things which prevent your opponent interacting in the game effectively are always worse than things which buff your own crew in terms of NPE's.

 

Don't get me wrong Slop Hauler is a very good model, I'm not disputing that. But that in itself is no reason to ignore the power level of a totally different model. Perhaps they both need to be cuddled but we're not talking about slop haulers here, we're talking about Belles. I hear getting shot hurts a lot, that doesn't mean getting stabbed is fine. 

 

In a normal deployment if your crew isn't hidden one of your models will rocket 18" across the table turn 1. The same thing will happen on turn 2. Heaven forbid you don't want to play a hard combat crew, tough you're now in melee on the wrong side of the table. Try telling Colette players that Belles are totally fine, as soon as she becomes visible your master will vanish across the table and get beaten to death. Oh but don't worry she can...oh no all her abilities involve being near things which Belles prevent. Are you suggesting that if your opponent declares Ressers you cannot play Colette? That is not a sustainable way to design a game. The game should not be designed around Mr Suitcase than can pull any master and any crew out of his box. If you do that you're telling 90% of you player base you do not care about them. 

 

You also cannot compare Belles to Performers in a reasonable way. Performers are easier to kill and less dangerous in melee than Belles. The +2CA and 18" range Belles have just makes them ridiculously better than Performers. CA 6 with an 18" range is more comparable to Performers in terms of power. More importantly Belles can be summoned which Performers cannot be. 

[Ratty]

That's kind of assuming that as soon as a model gets lured, it doesn't just activate next  and walk behind a building.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

People, you cannot compare the Bells to anything. The NPE is a factor of the cast 8. It's negative because when I play against Bell spam, I do not get a reasonable chance to negate it. I HAVE to sit back and let my models get kills. Futhermore, some poeple have stated, "so they kill one model a turn, you just move the rest of your models up" this idea would great if it weren't for the fact that the Bells are not luring just you chaff. They take out your important models. You lure something variable, like Rusty Alice! And you tear her apart.

[Ratty]

It does feel like you are not playing with enough terrain. Normally the best way of responding is by taking the model the Belle player has nicely moved towards them, taking a shot with you ranged weapon and then walking behind the nearest piece of cover... It used to be much worse as you could chain more models with lure together, and do far more lures in a row.

[Dracomax]

I wouldn't say 50% is the standard, but you should have at minimum 25% and average 33% in terrain, with a mix of severe, obscuring/dense,  and blocking.

 

If you can lure a model 18" in one activation, then you really need to consider that you should have more severe terrain.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

That's kind of assuming that as soon as a model gets lured, it doesn't just activate next  and walk behind a building.

 

So the responce to a model with an unreasonable stat is to make sure that the table has enough terrain to negate the lure. So put down as much terrain as you can so that it stops any lanes of site from across the board. Got it, I'll be waiting for the Guild thread to start that complains there's too much terrain on the board for thier shooting crews.

 

Consider this:

From Deployment : Models are deployed up to the 6 in line. Leaving only 24" of space between you and your opponent.

First few activations, assuming both players have the activations to waste before the luring begins. Unless your opponent makes a mistake and activates his important models and walks him up as far as he goes.

First Bell Lure twice then companions for another two lures. Assuming you have an avarage walk of 4/5, your model just moved 16" to 20", if they have Sybill then 24" / 28". In any case, your model is between 8" and 0" away. That was only two Bells that activated. You are close enough to abuse. Make one, JUST ONE, little LoS error with your good models and you'll be punished by losing it turn one, which also assumes you have as much terrain as Ratty seems to play with.

[Ratty]

Nope the answer is to put the correct amount of terrain on the board, half the boards I see have 40k or Fantasy levels of terrain. Which automatically makes Belles and Perdita crew far better than they should be. The game is designed to be played with a certain amount of terrain and the game is balanced around that amount of terrain.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

If you'll look at the tournaments reports that SharpObjects has posted you'll see pictures of our tables and know that they are within the 30% board coverage that the rule book recommends. You'll see that even with sufficent terrain, Bells in mass can accomplish what they need to without difficulty.

[Ratty]

Well OK lets have a look

 

 

 

[Aramoro]

Nope the answer is to put the correct amount of terrain on the board, half the boards I see have 40k or Fantasy levels of terrain. Which automatically makes Belles and Perdita crew far better than they should be. The game is designed to be played with a certain amount of terrain and the game is balanced around that amount of terrain.

 

Then you're playing with more terrain than is recommended in the rulebook, that's not a reasonable case to make. Also Belles can chain activate so you don't get that chance to take a shot and move behind cover that you suggest. 

[Joel]

That casting 8 is good, there is no argument

 

That belles are "broken" because of it is a subject for discussion.

 

I face belles a lot - often 2 starting on a table with a 3rd being summoned in during a game.  I get lured all over the place, yes, even having a 13 in hand wont stop a master being pulled about if the belle's controller has a 12+ (except in certain limited circumstances).

 

yep, certainly powerful, if you assume that:

 

1) that lure will win you the game

2) that multiple lures are even possible when the LoS change due to the movement

3) that the belle player does have those high cards whenever they need them

4) that every target in the game is susceptible to being lured - several abilities prevent/hinder the cast or prevent the movement

5) that moving a powerful model nearer to the belle's lines isn't what you want to do anyway

6) that the belles last long enough to effect the end game

7) that a player hasn't deployed with the lure in mind

 

I do not believe that simply having a Ca8 makes the belles an NPE, I think that - although I sometimes despair that even a master can't easily (or even possibly) resist an effect - that this is simply a spur to adjust my playstyle, adapt to the situation and work out the puzzle of how to win regardless.

[Joel]

those tables are nowhere near enough terrain IMO. 

[Dirial]

Thanks very much, Joel. That's exactly what I was trying to say. Cast 8 is very strong, but that number alone (or with range 18) has never won me a game or caused a loss. I can believe that many people are tired of it but I don't see it at the level of escalation many people in this thread claim.

 

But the discussion seems to be going in circles. Some people believe that Ca 8 on Lure is in itself a problem, others do not. In 5 pages I have not seen an unrebukable argument for one side or the other. Which doesn't mean it's balanced, just that it isn't obvious and clear-cut that it's a problem.

[tadaka]

Wow 2 people actualy defended belles by saying how good orion are. That right there is some funny stuff.

[Dracomax]

If you assume that the black or the red areas in the top/bottom photos are severe terrain, it's about right—and would mean that you get 2-2.5 inches of movement off of a 4-5" walk. Otherwise, it is way too low. The book specifies 25-50%. 25 is actually a bit low, but would fill a 9"by 36" rectangle of space on the board.

 

In addition, you should not just be using one type of terrain, or large terrain. the book also recommends most terrain be no larger than 3" diameter.

 

Those photos show very sparse, very open terrain, and that really doesn't help the case.

[PolishSausage]

those tables are nowhere near enough terrain IMO. 

I would love to see your tables if you would be so kind to post sir.

 

Unless you play with a labirith-esque table with a shape of spacehulk corridors you will get lured. Then again if you are plaing in a labirinth terrain ala spacehulk the odds you wont interact with enemy crew untill turn 4 and 5: THATS not playing the game right

[mythicFOX]

Looking at the terrain on those boards. A lot of it also seems to be in corners / deployment zones.

 

I think this is more like it (SmogCon);

 

[Ratty]

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Lovely board, but I see nothing that would stop bells from getting you turn one. Each of those has many long lanes right down the middle of the board and are very wide. Unless you plan on hiding behind those back buildings or forests the whole game. Then sure, you'll never get lured... or... you know... play the game...