ophelia's "eyes closed"

[Lemonconstruct]

So currently on twitter this discussion has emerged.

Does ophelia's (0) With My Eyes closed! give positives to both attack and damage ?

 

the argument comes from her rough riders giving positive to "attack flip" and eyes closed giving positive to "attack action"

 

Debate, this may need to be on an FAQ,

[hypoking]

Have always played it as the attack flip only.

[Elessarion]

I honestly think it can be read either way. The fact that Rough Riders specifies "This Attack Action gains a + to the Attack Flip" and With My Eyes Closed just says "For the rest of this model's activation, it's Sh Attack Actions gain +" without being specific.

So I think potentially either way could be right.

[rgarbonzo]

Attack Actions are separate from Damage Flips. She gains a positive to her Attack Actions so if using her Rough Riders she would get a double positive to attack with no bonus to damage. Why?

 

An opposed duel is what the attack actions uses and there is no step for a damage flip

From Pg 32 Big Rule Book

Opposed Duel sequence

1 Declare SS use

2 Flip Fate card and add stat

3 Choose to cheat Fate

4 Declare one trigger

5 Determine Success

 

On Pg 33 under Determine Success we see this in the fourth paragraph

Once success or failure is determined, the cards in use are discarded and then the results of the success or failure are resolved.

 

We then move on to a new phase which is The Damage Flip. The Damage Flip is a separate entity that is the result of an attack flip. also it is stated "Damage Flips are often the result of a duel. They do not gain any modifiers (Fate or otherwise) that were applied directly to the duel that might have caused the damage. Efffects that modify the damage flip will state that they do so specifically." - pg 46

[icebreaker]

Hi, I want to reopen this question. 

There are guys in our club that think than "get + to SH Attack Action" means "get + to all flips". How prove that damage flip do not gait + ?

[icebreaker]

Unfortunately this issue create a big argument in our club and note on pg. 52  "Effects that modify the damage flip will state that they do so specifically." do not work in our case. 

It would great in someone from staff clears the picture.

[Adran]

Things which give pluses to the attack action or the attack flip will not give that to the damage flip. 

Rules manual page 52. The whole paragraph, because taking just the sentence you quoted out of context seems to confuse. 

To perform a damage flip the model dealing the damage flips the top card of its
deck and compares the card’s value to the damage flip chart below. A model may
Cheat Fate on a damage flip with the same restrictions as any other flip.
Damage flips are often the result of a duel. They do not gain any of the modifiers
(Fate or otherwise) that were applied directly to the duel that might have caused the
damage flip. Effects that modify the damage flip will state that they do so specifically.

Something that applies a positive to the attack, or the attack action won't automatically carry on to the damage flip.

If an ability gives  to all flips a model makes then that would apply to the damage flip (it has specified all flips). If something gave  to all duels, (or all attacks, or even to 1 attack) then it wouldn't apply because the damage flip isn't a duel (or an attack) and this sentence tells us that things that applied to the duel don't apply to the damage flip resulting from the duel. 

I don't know what argument the guys in your club use, but I think the above holds true for all actions in the game, and whilst it might be slightly confusing at first, its consistent in the way it is written

 on the attack = the opposed duel only

 on attack and damage = opposed duel and damage flip

 on all flips = any flips also required to target the model (ie Terrifying) as well as the attack and damage flip (+ what ever other flips you can make the model do)

[Myyrä]

To add to what @Adran said:

The rulebook uses to an Action and to an Action's duel interchangably. For example, soulstones can only be used to give a to the Attack flip, but the opposed duel example on pg. 28 of the rules manual talks about using a SS to give to the Attack Action.

[looka]

IF ... TAKING Attack action ........ add a + to Attak FlIP
its all correct.

SS is add + to flip only

In the description of the rules it is written that the action consists of 3 points
2 poins is oposit duel
3 point is damage flip  and it doesn get +  from modifiers dueling(As described on page 52)

but ophelia gets + to all action.
Why it does not get + to damage flip?  it's part of the action

sorry for my English...

[looka]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

If an ability gives  to all flips a model makes then that would apply to the damage flip (it has specified all flips). If something gave  to all duels, (or all attacks, or even to 1 attack) then it wouldn't apply because the damage flip isn't a duel (or an attack) and this sentence tells us that things that applied to the duel don't apply to the damage flip resulting from the duel. 

oposit duel is only a part of attack action. ophelia give + to attack action, not to attack flip or duel

" on the attack = the opposed duel only"

Why? Attack is more complex concept than a duel

[Myyrä]

3 minutes ago, looka said:

oposit duel is only a part of attack action. ophelia give + to attack action, not to attack flip or duel

" on the attack = the opposed duel only"

Why? Attack is more complex concept than a duel

 

2 hours ago, Myyrä said:

To add to what @Adran said:

The rulebook uses to an Action and to an Action's duel interchangably. For example, soulstones can only be used to give a to the Attack flip, but the opposed duel example on pg. 28 of the rules manual talks about using a SS to give to the Attack Action.

 

[looka]

2 hours ago, Myyrä said:

To add to what @Adran said:

The rulebook uses to an Action and to an Action's duel interchangably. For example, soulstones can only be used to give a to the Attack flip, but the opposed duel example on pg. 28 of the rules manual talks about using a SS to give to the Attack Action.

Maybe you mean this line on page 28?

2 hours ago, looka said:

IF ... TAKING Attack action ........ add a + to Attak FlIP
its all correct.

SS is add + to flip only
 

It is not Equal concepts, they are separated, attack flip in an atack action. This is particular.
1 step - choose target and spend ss to get (+ flip to an attack flip)
2 step - duel which Includes attack flip
3 step - damage flip (for example)

[Myyrä]

On 7/17/2017 at 2:07 PM, looka said:

Maybe you mean this line on page 28?

It is not Equal concepts, they are separated, attack flip in an atack action. This is particular.
1 step - choose target and spend ss to get (+ flip to an attack flip)
2 step - duel which Includes attack flip
3 step - damage flip (for example)

I do not, because there is no such line on page 28 of the rules manual.

I mean this one:

 

 

[looka]

Can this be a typo? Because further they share these concepts

[Myyrä]

2 minutes ago, looka said:

Can this be a typo? Because further they share these concepts

The question is: Can you prove it is a typo? If you can't, you don't have a ground to stand on.

[Adran]

14 minutes ago, looka said:

Can this be a typo? Because further they share these concepts

Lets assume its not a typo, and the rules work the way the rule book says. Does this cause any problems?

I don't think in this case it does, so until we are told otherwise it seems safe to say that  to Attack action only applied to the duel that the attack action causes. 

[looka]

Maybe I just have another rulebooke?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dp815zkfhse1v9l/Screenshot_11.png?dl=0

Here in the example, the action on the flip is fixed

[Adran]

That is on page 18 of the same rules manual that Myyra is showing page 28

Sine they are both in the same rule book, we have 2 choices. Either they have made a typo somewhere, or the language used in both cases means the same thing. Since they haven't errata'd either section, it seems best to assume that., like Myyra said, the terms mean the same thing and can be used inter changeably. 

[looka]

In the description of the ss and in the example to it they write one, in the example the oposite was blowing another
As for me it is not the strongest argument in favor of the fact that these concepts are identical
This is more like a semantic typo in the example.
And this does not negate the fact that the action contains both a duel and a spend of ss and damage flip
And the whole action is not equal to duel. It's too different concepts to equate them

[Ludvig]

@looka Page 52: effects that modify the damage flip will state that they do so explicitly. Ophelia's ability does not state that and as Adran and Myyrä have shown you the game uses some terms interchangably. If you have a plus to an action it only means the duel, not the damage flip unless it specifically says so like in the case of the focus condition, Leveticus' channel and a few other abilities.

[looka]

all duels? including horror? or only opposed?

[Adran]

1 minute ago, looka said:

all duels? including horror? or only opposed?

Only the duel that takes place in step 2 of the action - Perform duels.