SpiralngCadavr Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Razhem, I mostly agree, except the bit about the NB. I played Warmachine for a really long time, and one of the few things I really didn't like about the rules were that there was no distinction between a patch and an upgrade. With the Nothing Beast, the options are to make an already overpriced option that's a gamble due to it being a glass cannon, and exaggerate it by forcing more points in, or give it a 0SS upgrade, which will just be a transparent stop-gap patch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarSol Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Upgrades are a fine way to patch an issue. Preferable, really as they maintain game consistency across different player groups that can be lost with errata. I have no problem with underpricing upgrades on overpriced models. It might be transparent, but I don't see it a problem when its not a common occurrence. It doesn't have to be a 0 SS upgrade either, it just has to result in a model that's worth its new point total. There'd be nothing wrong with a 3 SS upgrade for him if it made him better than Killjoy, no matter silly that upgrade would have to be. I actually take more issue with the opposite, where upgrades are priced for what they're "worth" in a vacuum but just make the existing model something that is still too expensive. I feel the game already has a few 1 or 2 SS upgrades that might be worth a SS or two, but don't result in models worth X+2 compared to their initial cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Mouse Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Can't speak for Ausplosions, but I was in the same boat (went from pro- to anti-theme) and for me it was: -starting to test out raw heavy hitters (the NB started to look much worse compared to others) -changing up play styles (realized the death marshals were too expensive unless playing heavily towards a niche) -trying to figure out Karina (yeah, she's pretty terrible) -testing the avatar (which made it how clear she was reliant on upgrades) My ideal reconfiguration of Tara and her crew would look like: -Make Faces in the Void and The Darlings native instead of upgrades -Make Whispers From the Darkness a low enough TN to be useable -Shuffle around all the void upgrades except for Knowledge of Eternity around until they make worthwhile choices (and not either things you're forced to take or never take), maybe adding stuff to fill gaps -give the NB one of the following: better durability, better weak damage, lower cost -make Karina useful. I'd probably start with some more defense and a summon you can actually use. ...unfortunately, unless there's a 2.5 with some new cards down the line, I think others are probably right that there's no chance of her seeing revisions. I think this is pretty much word-for-word how I feel about Tara. She has interesting mechanics and fluff, but her totem and "henchman" really aren't fit for purpose and are better swapped out for non-fluff alternatives. And I would definitely take better durability for NB out of that list. He's a great model, just one that can very rapidly evaporate (for 10ss) if you lose initiative and he's sitting on Df 3. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Razhem, I mostly agree, except the bit about the NB. I played Warmachine for a really long time, and one of the few things I really didn't like about the rules were that there was no distinction between a patch and an upgrade. With the Nothing Beast, the options are to make an already overpriced option that's a gamble due to it being a glass cannon, and exaggerate it by forcing more points in, or give it a 0SS upgrade, which will just be a transparent stop-gap patch. I know, but what I mean is that the fix is rather tame, you give it a 1 SS upgrade that is actually worth 1.5 stones and it works out fine, since he isn't that underpowered, he is based on focus to put the damage around, but when he connects, it hurts a ton, it's his defenses which are lacking or some support ability since his aura is pretty sucky. But it's relatively approachable, Karina on the other hand, by god will that upgrade have to do a TON... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Yeah, I agree that the NB would be easy enough to fix, I just don't like the patch structure on principle.Re: Karina, I dunno, if her upgrade was "here's a regular spell for spawning dead marshals instead of that red joker thing" I'd probably take her, since she could pay for herself in one success and it would mean I didn't need to gum up Tara's upgrade options with dead of winter.But... yeah. It would need to be a really good and cheap upgrade to warrant getting Karina. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drool_bucket Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 If I was in charge I would give both Karina and the NB a new upgrade, because as a fledging Tara player I have no intention of using either. Karina would get a cheap, summoning upgrade. Even something simple like (0) Karina gains the following Condition, "Remembrance - Instead of discarding the Red Joker, she may discard any Crow or Ram valued 8 or higher to fulfill her summoning requirment" Then the Nothing Beast would get an upgrade, again cheap, that allows his crew to discard any number of cards after (or before) the INI flip is resolved. Personally, I think Tara is just fine, their are lots of Masters that rely on their Upgrades to "do their things" and I don't feel any of them are must haves versus preferential. And Void Wretches are nice, little models. They fill a great role for the Outcast Faction as a whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Re: Karina, sure, something like that could work.Re: NB, completely disagree: you shouldn't be trashing cards just to trash them, even in Tara's crew.Re: tara's upgrades, really? You think she should have an upgrade for using her thematic models, and two that are effectively dependent on one another and without which she's basically just a decent gun and sword with some actions? Because, I don't see other masters which are hamstrung without specific upgrades, and the only ones where core abilities are on upgrades are Limited (i.e. it's about one strong playstyle vs. another). I haven't played a ton, so that's just from experience, not speaking categorically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Maybe to put on Karina: (0) Reach into the Void: Discard all cards in your hand, then search through your deck, select one card, and put it into your hand. Reshuffle your deck afterward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I can't tell- is that a joke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Even if it was meant as a joke, it would be an interesting thing for Karina to have. The choice of when to use it could be quite tactical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 The choice wouldn't be tactical. Tara's already got a "discard your hand" ability that is kinda' cheesy. That would make it so at the end of your turn you always have the option, every turn, to spend 0 cards to pulse Fast or put the red joker in your hand, or if Karina is unburied, do both.Karina's summon would still be mostly situational and weak (though actually possible to pull off more than once in a blue moon, I guess), but your crew would be able to guarantee themselves the red joker in your hand at little penalty every turn, which is pretty absurdly good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I can't tell- is that a joke? It was not a joke. More of a musing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drool_bucket Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 @Spiralling RE: Upgrades, yes, I don't think her upgrades are "auto must haves" unless you are trying to accomplish certain things with just Tara. When I look at Tara the two things that jump out the most on the card is "through the hole" and the Re-activate ability. Those two abilities scream to me what I think Tara is all about, namely objective running. Unlike any other master I can think of, I see Tara as the Runner of the crew. Her secondary ability is to support, either via Fast or moving buried models around. See, I feel that most players use her as a delivery system for heavy hitters. Great, I don't disagree that, with the proper upgrades, that's a style of play that can be successful. The problem is that it really requires (as you point out) 2, if not three, of her upgrades to do that. And honestly, if I wanted to play an Outcast Master who's "trick" was hitting the opponent in the face with a beatstick, I'd just play the Viks. Instead, when I see things like Power Ritual and Breakthrough in a Stake a Claim mission (which mind you comes up more often in competitive play) Tara is the obvious choice of Master. So when I am choosing her upgrades the first one I always take is Scramble. After that, it becomes all crew/strat&scheme dependent. Hannah(with her upgrade) is a great choice, as long as you are avoiding Wretches and the NB. Because Hannah then becomes the "Bury-er" of the crew which frees up Tara to deliver people as needed. Student of Conflict can do the Fast thing, or Tara if placement allows for it. Anyways, I digress. Eternal Journey (the one that allows her to return to her Deployment as a (0) and attempt to use others (1) abilities) is an amazing upgrade. Having Hannah bury the right model only to allow Tara to utilize its ability twice (resource depending, of course) and then spit that model out to Chain Activate, yes please! Try models like Sue, Convict Gunslinger and Hans with Tara, step away from Killjoy/Taelor/Bishop. I have not done the "shoot off other Masters Upgrades" with Tara yet, but I can't tell you I haven't thought long and hard about what the right way to do it is. It involves Hans, Hannah and the Student of Conflict. I guess my point is that Tara is more than a delivery Master and I think its very short-sighted of the Malifaux Community to view her as simply that. Malifaux remains not a game of killing, but of VP, and Tara should be considered one of the best. anyways, mine's getting painted right now so that means she'll see a lot more action and I'll have a lot more experience with her, becasue as stated above, I am relatively inexperienced with her. I just want my darn Hannah model! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Let's not forget that she is inexplicably also a resser. Declared in that faction makes taking her theme crew, or mercenaries much more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Let's not forget that she is inexplicably also a resser. Declared in that faction makes taking her theme crew, or mercenaries much more expensive.But as a Resser what does she want with her theme crew or with Mercs? This thread has reached a clear consensus that Void Wretches are the only worthwhile part of her theme crew (well, I like Dead Marshalls (heehee), too, but they are a different upgrade) and there's lots of choices in the Resser arsenal that can be used instead.So just take a "normal" Resser crew where your synergy with your crew is giving fast to everyone plus one enemy model which has been lured in by the Belles. And you can pick and choose the best Resser models since your synergy is so very simple yet so very powerful. And you get a Reactivating Master, which is also nice (especially as an objective runner as drool pointed out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 And synergizing very well with bete. Tara is one of the very few resser masters I run bets with because she doesn't need as many high cards to work at peak efficiency as other resser masters might. High cards are important for everyone, but any resser that wants to summon as well as do anything else that is opposed starts running short on high cards very quickly. Tara overall doesn't care, AND she can make certain bets pops out every turn instead of languishing or popping out where she might or might not have best effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaxiamander Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 But as a Resser what does she want with her theme crew or with Mercs? This thread has reached a clear consensus that Void Wretches are the only worthwhile part of her theme crew (well, I like Dead Marshalls (heehee), too, but they are a different upgrade) and there's lots of choices in the Resser arsenal that can be used instead. The Upgrade for Void Wretches and for Dead Marshals are the same, "Dead of Winter". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 The Upgrade for Void Wretches and for Dead Marshals are the same, "Dead of Winter".Bah, yeah, I dunno what I was thinking. Thanks for the correction!(But the point still stands - I don't think that Tara needs her basic crew with Ressers - I mean, it's not silly to take them, but they aren't really needed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Mouse Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I would change Karina to give her an ability to summon void wretches rather than death marshalls and also make it a lot easier to pull off than the red joker. Say 10 + or something. Or (my preferred solution) just buff her up to ~7-8 stones worth and make her a proper hench - better stats, better gun and perhaps an upgrade that makes your hand count as 2 fewer (to a minimum of 0) for the purposes of the Df calc while in LOS for ~2SS, call it "out of phase" or something. Also perhaps an upgrade that means enemy models with fast/slow receive to Wp flips in 6 , maybe also add the current NB upgrade text (and ditch the NB upgrade ) for ~3SS and call it "Temporal Paradox". Reduce the NB to 9SS and increase his Terrifying (living) 10 to Terrifying (all) 12 while you're at it and both models would be getting more to where they would be useful. Either way I would really like to see something done with both those models, because the general consensus is that they aren't up to snuff. Even the people who initially defended them have changed their tune with more matches. Thematically this crew is amazing, as are the models so it would be great to feel like I could play a theme crew and not be at a disadvantage. The good thing is the crew has not been officially released, so there is potentially time to fix a lot of these issues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Well, the former option doesn't do anything about her survivability. I guess she could go up to a reasomnable henchman, but then Tara would be out a totem, or would be the unique example of a totem being something strong that isn't a 0SS part of their character. Eh, the NB changes would be okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Mouse Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Well, the former option doesn't do anything about her survivability. I guess she could go up to a reasomnable henchman, but then Tara would be out a totem, or would be the unique example of a totem being something strong that isn't a 0SS part of their character. Eh, the NB changes would be okay. Tara's real totems are the void wretches. They're cheap, good and don't work with any other crew/master (much like the Young to Ophelia). So I would prefer to see Karina go up to a reasonable henchman. The Void Wretches be re-branded as totems (but otherwise stay the same, they're great where they are). And the NB get a small SS reduction and terrifying buff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I beg to differ. Void Wretches fight well enough on their own, and have their places in other crews, since they're the most durable and mobile 4-pt model Outcasts have access to. They're actually the only model associated with Tara (including Death Marshals) that I consider highly useful without her. Furthermore, totems are typically defined as cheap models that can't run objectives, which would defeat arguably the best use of the wretches. Comparatively, Karina is only based on fast and bury (which, outside Tara and the wretches) is extremely limited, the nothing beast has zero survivability outside a Tara list, and death marshals don't bring nearly enough to the table for 6 points for them to exist outside of a niche. So... I guess if you completely redesigned Karina to do something else, she could do something else? But you're suggesting she becomes a strong assist piece for Tara, meaning even in this hypothetical where she's a henchman and wretches are totems, she wouldn't be good without tara since she couldn't get the interaction with wretches, which are mechanically closest to tara. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuttleboy Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I would like it if Karina was a henchman, after all in the story she brings back the Death Marshall that is part of the themed crew and seems to bring Tara back from the dead as well. I guess the reason she's not so very good is to represent sitting in the cave and loosing her mind. As she is now she just doesn't help enough justify being a 5 SS totem, at least not that I've been able to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Well, she's the most expensive totem in the game, and the only higher ranking ones are the 0's that automatically come with masters. I don't think her power had anything to do with fluff, but that she wasn't designed/tested well enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vargas79 Posted April 5, 2014 Report Share Posted April 5, 2014 I find it incredibly hard to believe that she was designed purposefully to be ineffective in order to match the fluff. I'd love to know what Justin thought he was delivering that justified her 5ss cost. She's been a waste every time for me. I like the model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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