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Joel gave me the basics of this before gencon and it's been long enough to give you guys some hints.   Illuminated, depleted, strum. You guys figure out the rest.

Hmm, must be an odd plan that has some other working parts as Strum the Fate only works on Puppets *Otherwise I would be abusing it even more*.  It and those two types of models are not the normal match up for a combo.  I use it and the Brutal Effigy together a lot for Collodi to go fast and then heal up but I am not sure how the upgrade helps Illuminated or Depleted as they are not puppets and there is no current way to turn other models into puppets.  Only thing that springs to mind is using Collodi's My Will to make Illuminated take more swings against a model that has Brilliance for a lot of Ml6, Positive flip, 4/6/7 damage spread, and using Strum the Fate so Collodi can do it 4 times.

Now I am a little curious.  I know he had a Collodi list with a fair load of mid point models that has no marionette that he showed in the Slingshot thread but it had no Illuminated or Depleted in it so must be different.

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"The Widow Weaver can add some mobility to some Crews as well, giving +1 Wk to friendly Constructs that activate within 6" of her."

Does this +1 carry on if the model double walks out of WW's 6" aura?

Yup, it "triggers" when you declare to activate the model within the aura and lasts the activation. It never works if you obey the model or something like that however since then you aren't activating.

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Cheers Ludvig

So the +1 stays until the targets next activation I suppose? Just asking in case a Wlk duel?

"... until the end of the activation" so it goes away at the end of that activation, it can never be in effect on a model that isn't the active one right now.

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Joel gave me the basics of this before gencon and it's been long enough to give you guys some hints.   Illuminated, depleted, strum. You guys figure out the rest.

Hmm, must be an odd plan that has some other working parts as Strum the Fate only works on Puppets *Otherwise I would be abusing it even more*.  It and those two types of models are not the normal match up for a combo.  I use it and the Brutal Effigy together a lot for Collodi to go fast and then heal up but I am not sure how the upgrade helps Illuminated or Depleted as they are not puppets and there is no current way to turn other models into puppets.  Only thing that springs to mind is using Collodi's My Will to make Illuminated take more swings against a model that has Brilliance for a lot of Ml6, Positive flip, 4/6/7 damage spread, and using Strum the Fate so Collodi can do it 4 times.

Now I am a little curious.  I know he had a Collodi list with a fair load of mid point models that has no marionette that he showed in the Slingshot thread but it had no Illuminated or Depleted in it so must be different.

Yea... strum doesn't seem to mesh with this... hmmm... Personal puppet illuminated doesn't really work either because strum doesn't trigger personal puppet. I assume if Illuminated are part of any kind of filth then it includes spreading brilliance, but Collodi doesn't seem to have a way to pull that off using Depleted...

VERY interested in what this filth is.

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I've been running a very fun/successful list of (think I posted in hidden NB forums, but not this open forum so here it is):

  • Collodi (Fated, Strum, 5ss)
  • Arcane Effigy
  • Trapper
  • Brutal Effigy
  • 3x Changelings
  • Doppleganger
  • Primordial Magic
  • Envy or Mysterious Emissary (Conflux of Music)

It doesn't do well on things like Headhunter but besides that I've had no issue deleting 1-2 models a turn starting on turn 1. Tonight I'm going to try a new list I'm working on for Collodi (not the one above).

I've had a lot of fun using Coryphee's, and tonight I may try 2 instead of 1. I hate line in the sand and I think Collodi may be the first master I may try it with again.

 

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I've been running a very fun/successful list of (think I posted in hidden NB forums, but not this open forum so here it is):

  • Collodi (Fated, Strum, 5ss)
  • Arcane Effigy
  • Trapper
  • Brutal Effigy
  • 3x Changelings
  • Doppleganger
  • Primordial Magic
  • Envy or Mysterious Emissary (Conflux of Music)

It doesn't do well on things like Headhunter but besides that I've had no issue deleting 1-2 models a turn starting on turn 1. Tonight I'm going to try a new list I'm working on for Collodi (not the one above).

I've had a lot of fun using Coryphee's, and tonight I may try 2 instead of 1. I hate line in the sand and I think Collodi may be the first master I may try it with again.

 

Will back up that trapper changeling combo, it's just brutal. 

For line collodi would probably be the least likely master to go for it for me. Reason being is that our best model to accomplish line is spawn mother, but she needs mid-high crows and its to much of a competition for resources with collodi.

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I've been running a very fun/successful list of (think I posted in hidden NB forums, but not this open forum so here it is):

  • Collodi (Fated, Strum, 5ss)
  • Arcane Effigy
  • Trapper
  • Brutal Effigy
  • 3x Changelings
  • Doppleganger
  • Primordial Magic
  • Envy or Mysterious Emissary (Conflux of Music)

It doesn't do well on things like Headhunter but besides that I've had no issue deleting 1-2 models a turn starting on turn 1. Tonight I'm going to try a new list I'm working on for Collodi (not the one above).

I've had a lot of fun using Coryphee's, and tonight I may try 2 instead of 1. I hate line in the sand and I think Collodi may be the first master I may try it with again.

 

Will back up that trapper changeling combo, it's just brutal. 

For line collodi would probably be the least likely master to go for it for me. Reason being is that our best model to accomplish line is spawn mother, but she needs mid-high crows and its to much of a competition for resources with collodi.

Yeah that's why I'm challenging myself with it. I want to see if I could mono-master for a tourney and be able to do LoS if I needed to (I have most of NB) but want to really play Collodi cause he's so much fun more regular. Thinking a vasilisa / coryphee combo and took another look at Shadow Effigy (nice model to have in something like this).

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If I had to pick a Neverborn for Line in the Sand it would either be Lucius or Zoraida.  Lucius because he can take the Guild Sergeant who can do a lot of it himself in a relatively tight area of the board.  Zoraida because of her Tarot Reading's 2 AP action can turn a cluster of them into a nice neat line on the center if you plan it right.  Third would be Collodi just cause a cheap Marionette can do much of the work if left alone on one flank.  If you really need it done then Collodi can work with a Silurid and get most of it done by turn 2 with out eating to much of Collodi's AP.  First turn he My Will's the Silurid to advance, then during its activation it can leap to the center line, drop a marker, then move into position for the next one.  Second turn Collodi can My Will him to drop another marker, then during its activation move, drop the next, then leap.  At that point you have 3 of the 4 down.  Could possible do this with a gupp as well for cheaper, or an Insidious Madness, but the Silurid is not a bad option either.

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Incoming super long post, sorry!
So when I first heard about "no marionettes," I thought it was crazy! Why would you give up having up to four (but more likely two) 3ss, significant, hard to kill minions? They're as good as Bayou Gremlins (though in slightly different ways)! But just now in the past hour or so, I rethought this crew choice and I'm now considering it potentially BETTER in more situations than its not. Lets compare:
*Keep in mind I'm only focusing on FATED Collodi

Primordial Magic:
    2ss
    Rush of Magic
    Counts as Scheme Marker
    Can make things insignificant from far away
    Can hide all game with no major consequence
Marionettes:
    3ss
    Minion, Significant, 4 wounds, Hard to Kill
    Can Benefit from Collodi's Fated and Strum upgrades
    Weak attack - Ml 4-5, 1/2/4, but can (0) deny cheating for one duel
    (0) push could be useful in corner cases, but costs a card
    Make for good sacrificial personal puppets
        
As you can see, they serve no similar purpose other than cheap activation control. The PM is a cheap hand buffer who can hide in the back and just be an activation or scheme marker. The Marionette can do much more, being a cheap scheme marker dropper, or make a few weak attacks. Because they can get Focus and an Effigy buff from Fated, and Fast from Strum, they can become very mobile and a little , able to Walk-Charge or Charge-Attack for about 2-5 damage on average. I'm going to ignore personal puppet, because I would in most cases want my PP to be a strong minion like an Illuminated or Beckoner to take full advantage of the AP generation, rather than the sacrificial portion.

So lets say they compete in 5 major categories:
    1. Activation Control
    2. Scheming Power
    3. Minor Damage & Causing lots of duels
    4. Extraneous Support (i.e. pushes, rush of magic)
    5. Target Saturation for your opponent

At first, Marionettes seem to win in at least 3 categories. After all, Marionettes can drop more scheme markers over the course of a game than the single one the Primordial counts as, and the Marionettes can also put some damage on thanks to the Focus and Fast buffs. Activation Control is arguable, but multiple 3ss significant minions seem pretty useful for Target Saturation.

However! Lets look at these points a little more closely:

1) Activation Control
    If you are playing Fated Collodi, you're spamming minions. This means nearly your whole list will be comprised of 4-7ss models. You should already be pushing 10 activations without even trying. You don't really NEED more activation control.
2) Scheming Power
    Again, if you are playing Fated Collodi, you are already running 2 effigies (Arcane and Brutal for me). These effigies exist for little more than to buff Collodi and his crew, allowing them to use their remaining AP for moving and dropping scheme markers. They can easily fill the role of Marionettes. They can even benefit from Strum too.
3)    Minor Damage
    Brutal Effigy has Sh4, 1/3/4 at Rg 10(gun), much better than the Marionettes.
    Arcane Effigy has Ca4, 1/2/4 at Rg 1, almost the same as Marionettes, but with the benefit of having Ca against incorporeal enemies.
    Both the Effigies can benefit from Fated and Fast, just like Marionettes can.
    You also get Changelings that can benefit from Fated buffs but can copy crazy powerful attacks.
    Therefore you already have a lot of small ping damage. How much are the Marionettes adding?
4)    Extraneous Support
    The primordial magic gives Rush of Magic, stacking your hand just a little extra, and if needed can try to make an enemy insignificant.
    Marionettes have a very card inefficient 2" push as a (0). The Primordial can also come with a Changeling for the same cost as 2 marionettes.
5)    Target Saturation
    See #1. You should already have TONS of models for your opponent to be torn between. Additionally, Effigies have Df 6, Armor 1, and the same Wd4, Hard to Kill. If you desperately need to hold something up, use one of those, or even better take a Depleted with your Primordial Magic.
    
Sorry for the incredibly long post! I'd like to know what people think about this. It seems that the Marionettes really just give exactly what they seem - significant minion bodies that can quickly grab fast and split far from the bubble at little consequence. For something like Reconnoiter, Power Ritual, Line in the Sand, Marionettes are super worth it. In other Strats and Schemes, I think the Primordial Magic does more for you, and allows you to take better minions. Effigies just provide everything that Marionettes do, and since you're already running at least two of those, the Marionettes become redundant for much of what they're best used for.

What do you all think?

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  • 2 weeks later...

How versatile is Collodi out of curiosity? Can he do well in different schemes / strategies and does he have some variety in upgrades / crew composition?

Sort of yes?  Collodi tends to do two things himself, use his Pull the Strings attack or use his AP to aid his crew *often by having them attack*.  That said his Pull the String attack is very useful and can really mess with an opponent's crew as it can deny AP or control AP.  Not as grand against a Master as he does not have a great damage spread and the only trigger that works on masters is the Slow trigger, but it can still be useful when you need to get it.

Because he can get extra actions out of his own models *using his own AP* and can play denial with the opponent it makes him fairly flexible on the Strategy and schemes.  Even his crew comp can vary a bit depending on what you need save for in one regard.  He is going to want Minions, a good chunk of his crew should likely be built around minions.  Luckily their are a lot of minion choices and he is even good with several mercenary minions but he is going to favor those that make the most of his AP when he uses My Will on them.  So Collodi can be very in theme and take tons of puppets, but he is not limited to this in any regard.  I often take an Illuminated and Beckoner with him, I know some sniper lists for him have floated about, I have seen one before that was all about the Stitched too.  The one Strategy I am careful about taking Collodi in is Reckoning as I tend to favor numbers with him, something Reckoning has to be careful of.  But some of the sniper lists I have seen with him might do well with Reckoning due to the number of early shots to soften up the opponent.  For Schemes there are always going to be ones he is better act or weaker at.  Example: Make them Suffer is not one of strongest as it favors having some henchmen to make sure you score it, and he does not give the support to the henchmen and they take SS from the crew from the minions.

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How versatile is Collodi out of curiosity? Can he do well in different schemes / strategies and does he have some variety in upgrades / crew composition?

 

I know some sniper lists for him have floated about, I have seen one before that was all about the Stitched too.  The one Strategy I am careful about taking Collodi in is Reckoning as I tend to favor numbers with him, something Reckoning has to be careful of.  But some of the sniper lists I have seen with him might do well with Reckoning due to the number of early shots to soften up the opponent.  .

Out of curiosity, what would you take to run a sniper list? Is there anything in faction or would it be Merc dependent?

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I know some sniper lists for him have floated about, I have seen one before that was all about the Stitched too.  The one Strategy I am careful about taking Collodi in is Reckoning as I tend to favor numbers with him, something Reckoning has to be careful of.  But some of the sniper lists I have seen with him might do well with Reckoning due to the number of early shots to soften up the opponent.  .

Out of curiosity, what would you take to run a sniper list? Is there anything in faction or would it be Merc dependent?

Well PeregrineFalcon had a nice one up a bit in the thread.

  • Collodi (Fated, Strum, 5ss)
  • Arcane Effigy
  • Trapper
  • Brutal Effigy
  • 3x Changelings
  • Doppleganger
  • Primordial Magic
  • Envy or Mysterious Emissary (Conflux of Music)

In this list your Changlings can copy the Trapper's attack so while they are Sh4 they have a Positive to hit still, can focus for a 28" range, and a 2/3/5 damage spread.    Even the Doppelganger can copy the gun for additional shots and Collodi can pass Focus in a burst and additional attacks out as well.  With the Arcane you can also spread its ability so that each time one of these models manages to damage an enemy they have to discard a card or get burning +1.  Heck, Envy can give Collodi the focus so that he can save his AP to make them do additional attacks.  In this manner you could technically spit out I think 8 attacks with Focus at 28" range, 5 at Sh4, 3 at Sh5 with the rifles.  The only two things about the list is that it has to be careful if the enemy has stuff like Raptors or walls, the second thing being that the Mysterious Conflux *if you go the Emissary route* might be more useful as it can give additional positives to your minions.  Means when they focus and shoot with the clockwork rifle they are flipping 4 cards rather than 3. but I think the Envy right might be the better way unless you want to spawn more Changlelings.

Another variation of this might be to take two trappers and two changlings, drop the Doppelganger, stick with Envy, the two effigies, Fated, Strum the threads, and that leaves you some SS to decided what else you might need such as maybe a Stitched Together. Less shots but you can generate 4 at Sh5 and 3 at Sh4 if you want and it can spread out a little bit more..

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I know some sniper lists for him have floated about, I have seen one before that was all about the Stitched too.  The one Strategy I am careful about taking Collodi in is Reckoning as I tend to favor numbers with him, something Reckoning has to be careful of.  But some of the sniper lists I have seen with him might do well with Reckoning due to the number of early shots to soften up the opponent.  .

Out of curiosity, what would you take to run a sniper list? Is there anything in faction or would it be Merc dependent?

Well PeregrineFalcon had a nice one up a bit in the thread.

  • Collodi (Fated, Strum, 5ss)
  • Arcane Effigy
  • Trapper
  • Brutal Effigy
  • 3x Changelings
  • Doppleganger
  • Primordial Magic
  • Envy or Mysterious Emissary (Conflux of Music)

In this list your Changlings can copy the Trapper's attack so while they are Sh4 they have a Positive to hit still, can focus for a 28" range, and a 2/3/5 damage spread.    Even the Doppelganger can copy the gun for additional shots and Collodi can pass Focus in a burst and additional attacks out as well.  With the Arcane you can also spread its ability so that each time one of these models manages to damage an enemy they have to discard a card or get burning +1.  Heck, Envy can give Collodi the focus so that he can save his AP to make them do additional attacks.  In this manner you could technically spit out I think 8 attacks with Focus at 28" range, 5 at Sh4, 3 at Sh5 with the rifles.  The only two things about the list is that it has to be careful if the enemy has stuff like Raptors or walls, the second thing being that the Mysterious Conflux *if you go the Emissary route* might be more useful as it can give additional positives to your minions.  Means when they focus and shoot with the clockwork rifle they are flipping 4 cards rather than 3. but I think the Envy right might be the better way unless you want to spawn more Changlelings.

Another variation of this might be to take two trappers and two changlings, drop the Doppelganger, stick with Envy, the two effigies, Fated, Strum the threads, and that leaves you some SS to decided what else you might need such as maybe a Stitched Together. Less shots but you can generate 4 at Sh5 and 3 at Sh4 if you want and it can spread out a little bit more..

great summary. I'll just say I'd never recommend taking out a doppelganger from a NB list. They're too good and having 3 more (potentially) shots from the dopple is nice. Plus you also want to win initiative with this list and dopple can almost guarantee it. 

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great summary. I'll just say I'd never recommend taking out a doppelganger from a NB list. They're too good and having 3 more (potentially) shots from the dopple is nice. Plus you also want to win initiative with this list and dopple can almost guarantee it. 

Which is fair but I actually don't run with the Doppelganger a ton myself *Maybe a fourth or fifth of the time*.  Part of it is Meta part of it my play style.  Also my opponents have a way of flipping 12 and 13 for a lot of initiatives.  The reason I would likely drop it myself for another trapper is because of our group I am the Alpha Striker.  Example being, the last tournament I was in Collodi killed a Trapper on turn 1 and the other Trapper on turn 2.  My opponent's list had those two as an important part of his Tara list using I pay Better and making them Fast so I knew I had to remove them from the equation to reduce his options and steal the momentum.

So While I love Doppelgangers, I generally am leery having a single model as a lynchpin in my list *Ie the one lone trapper*.  I use the doppelganger's abilities generally for 2-3 VP rather than as an offensive tool.

But as I said before, a big part of the list is a player's style and to add to that, their Meta.  My meta would likely fall for a sniper list like this because they are use to me being aggressive, having a firebase would throw them off.  But then again We seem to have a lot of Rotten Belles in our part so that might be an issue too.

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great summary. I'll just say I'd never recommend taking out a doppelganger from a NB list. They're too good and having 3 more (potentially) shots from the dopple is nice. Plus you also want to win initiative with this list and dopple can almost guarantee it. 

Which is fair but I actually don't run with the Doppelganger a ton myself *Maybe a fourth or fifth of the time*.  Part of it is Meta part of it my play style.  Also my opponents have a way of flipping 12 and 13 for a lot of initiatives.  The reason I would likely drop it myself for another trapper is because of our group I am the Alpha Striker.  Example being, the last tournament I was in Collodi killed a Trapper on turn 1 and the other Trapper on turn 2.  My opponent's list had those two as an important part of his Tara list using I pay Better and making them Fast so I knew I had to remove them from the equation to reduce his options and steal the momentum.

So While I love Doppelgangers, I generally am leery having a single model as a lynchpin in my list *Ie the one lone trapper*.  I use the doppelganger's abilities generally for 2-3 VP rather than as an offensive tool.

But as I said before, a big part of the list is a player's style and to add to that, their Meta.  My meta would likely fall for a sniper list like this because they are use to me being aggressive, having a firebase would throw them off.  But then again We seem to have a lot of Rotten Belles in our part so that might be an issue too.

Yeah I can't disagree with that logic, but the beauty of the Dopple for me is that it acts as a second trapper that can take 3 shots. So added benefits for same exact cost.

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I am 6 games into my Malifaux career, won 2 lost 4, 2 of which were not down to my list or cards. Loving the game, real joy, even my missus is happy to hear my stories about Widow Weaver and Teddy etc.

I bought in Mysterious Emissary for my last game and gave him the campaign upgrade Gatling gun, wow, that being said they (Changeling's) thoroughly enjoyed using Johan's attacks for 2 turns.

My hope is too bring in Dreamer for our last few Nythera games, as I was looking through the cards I was drawn to my Collodi section and realised that in a Collodi list with that conflux upgrade you can have 3 changeling's summoned after 2 models (1 accompliced activation) activations, that is broken right? So before your opponent has even used 1 AP you have aded 3 Changelings to your crew! And the Emissary has the 'Puppet' label too.

I am obviously very green and have so much to learn, but even I realise that some kinda obey/accomplice shenanigans is tucked away with these 2 models on the board?

Cheers

Doc

Edited by Ceodoc
many typos
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Is the Trapper strategy a little *too* mean? I mean with a Trapper and a changeling, that's easily 4 focused shots you're throwing across, ideally two with Sh5 and +++, one with Sh5 and ++, and one with Sh4 and ++.

 

That seems like something that would raise a few eyebrows and get someone labeled as aiming for a NPE. It just seems like it's way too easy to blow something off the board on first turn with very little room for counterplay.

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That's not even that bad. When you have 3 changelings a trapper and envy to pump focus out without activating Collodi is when things get a bit ridiculous.

That said terrain is going to be a big factor and even with double plus flips those 4 sh are still going to miss most targets with decent defense. 

Did This in a tournament mainly because the tallest terrain was ht two, it was a Killy scheme pool and my opponent declared neverborn. He brought both huggy and nekima. He thought the same thing that I did and that I wasn't going to see a lot of shooting. Even with that getting surprise shots off, and using all of collodi's ap on the trapper it still took the whole first turn to kill nekima. Huggy did get into things and caused some issues with fears given form but collodi could quickly clean things up with casting. 

Had my opponent brought shorter models it would have been a much different game. Part of that is likely as a faction neverborn players don't play with a lot of mercs and don't factor that in when trying to determine our and our opponents list.

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I never think that this trapper strategy is a little *too* mean. Because changelings are very fragile and this strategy needs LoS to shoot, your opponents may use some solutions like Los-Blocking Terrains and models don't need LoS like Guild Austringers and Pigapult. And we have used other "may be mean" combos. But if you have thought this trapper strategy is a little *too* mean, I recommend Collodi + Lazarus with Retribution's Eye.  

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