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"After Succeeding" timing clarification


Mastershake

Question

If a trigger specifies "After Succeeding", does it take effect before or after the effect of the duel is applied?

Example: Lucius issues an order with the trigger to make a model take a (1) Interact Action after succeeding. Would the (1) Interact take place place before or after the normal (1) Action the model takes when the action goes off?

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um...I was under the impression that 'after succeeding' was a conditional of the effect happening, not the timing of the effect. I say this because it's my understanding that all trigger effects of an action happen after the effects of the action.

In this case, my understanding of the OP's situation is the Interact occurs after the normal (1) Action is taken.

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um...I was under the impression that 'after succeeding' was a conditional of the effect happening, not the timing of the effect. I say this because it's my understanding that all trigger effects of an action happen after the effects of the action.

In this case, my understanding of the OP's situation is the Interact occurs after the normal (1) Action is taken.

Page 30 specifically states that this is incorrect.

"after succeeding: These effects are settled after step 5,and only if the model wins the duel."

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You should probably add in Pg 37, right column, to avoid being confused. That's the only place it explicitly points out that resolving the results is a separate step instead of occurring at the end of Step 5 of the Duel, which the last sentence in Step 5 on Pg 30 is vague enough to support.

The layout there is a bit poor as Duel Trigger Resolution requires that you to know the steps of Action Resolution, but those steps haven't been gone over yet, creating confusion.

Also, how does Nicodem's Desiccation trigger work? If a trigger on succeeding goes off before the resolution of the Action, Nicodem can't fully heal any models that were healed by this action, as the Action hasn't healed any models yet.

Edited by DocSchlock
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It happens when you succeed.

So as soon as you succeed.

Sorry to necro thread, but is this correct?

I haven't seen much in regards to this and my own reading has only that it occurs after you've determined success, but nothing says or really implies that "after succeeding" effects take place before results of success are applied.

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A good example is the Pandora vs Mei Feng question at the top of page 9 of the recent FAQ:

http://www.malifaux.com/Downloads/M2e-FAQ-Errata-01-01-14.pdf

After success triggers and effects will take place immediately after succeeding in a duel.

In the rules manual Pg.22 and Pg.25 is where you would find this. On both pages it is step 5.Determine Success in the sequence of resolving a duel (simple and opposed respectively). When it concerns an action you can reference Pgs.35-36 of the rules manual for where it shoes that the duel will fall in step 2.Perform Duels of resolving actions.

As for the timing on Nicodem's :crowsDesiccation trigger....that's messed up, as the trigger would be applied before the effects of the spell itself, and so wouldn't (or shouldn't) have an effect. Obviously we can just fudge it so that it works, but still wtf?

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A good example is the Pandora vs Mei Feng question at the top of page 9 of the recent FAQ:

http://www.malifaux.com/Downloads/M2e-FAQ-Errata-01-01-14.pdf

After success triggers and effects will take place immediately after succeeding in a duel.

In the rules manual Pg.22 and Pg.25 is where you would find this. On both pages it is step 5.Determine Success in the sequence of resolving a duel (simple and opposed respectively). When it concerns an action you can reference Pgs.35-36 of the rules manual for where it shoes that the duel will fall in step 2.Perform Duels of resolving actions.

As for the timing on Nicodem's :crowsDesiccation trigger....that's messed up, as the trigger would be applied before the effects of the spell itself, and so wouldn't (or shouldn't) have an effect. Obviously we can just fudge it so that it works, but still wtf?

I assume Pandora's Incite action's Mass Hysteria trigger is in the same boat where you have to simply assume it lacks the same timing. Otherwise you actually end up with Dora doing another Incite before the first is actually complete.

As another interesting thought experiment. If you have a Beckoner with LoS to a model with the Addict upgrade will you always have a positive twist to damage for Despicable Promises? The Sales Pitch trigger gives the model Under the Influence after succeeding which appears to occur before applying the damage, so when you're determining what the modifier for the damage flip is isn't the target now Brilliant?

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I don't understand what the OP's example was since it doesn't really apply to the question. "After succeeding" effects take place after the normal effects of the Action, but only if the duel was 'successful.' The example in the FAQ about Pandora has nothing to do with the question either, since Fading Memory isn't a Trigger and has it's own, specific wording that goes off after winning a Wp duel. "Resolving Step 5" includes applying the results of the Action.

As for a Beckoner with Addict, it wouldn't get the :+fate the first time it attacked and applied the trigger, but would on subsequent attacks that turn.

Edited by Eyefink
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I don't understand what the OP's example was since it doesn't really apply to the question. "After succeeding" effects take place after the normal effects of the Action, but only if the duel was 'successful.' The example in the FAQ about Pandora has nothing to do with the question either, since Fading Memory isn't a Trigger and has it's own, specific wording that goes off after winning a Wp duel. "Resolving Step 5" includes applying the results of the Action.

As for a Beckoner with Addict, it wouldn't get the :+fate the first time it attacked and applied the trigger, but would on subsequent attacks that turn.

And this is why I necroed this thread. If you ask this question in multiple forums browsed by different patrons, you'll get an even split over the answer. The problem is that some abilities and triggers only make sense if "After Succeeding" triggers immediately upon success, but before applying the effects of the duel, while others only make sense if it means after applying effects of the duel assuming it was successful.

I hate to throw up the Justin signal here, but it really isn't clarified when this particular verbiage occurs and for some abilities it makes a huge difference. That being eveyone seems to think they know when it occurs even when their opinions are different, hence the necro.

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Read the Take Aim! Trigger on Lucius' Issue Command. Justin rewrote it to apply the focus before the Action is taken.

"After succeeding, but before the target takes the (1) Action,

the target gains Focused +1 until the end of the Turn."

Resolving the results is actually part of Step 5, so you normally apply "after succeeding" after the results are resolved, meaning Desiccation works as intended. If the Take Aim! said just "after succeeding" (like it did originally), the target model would take a 1 AP action, THEN gain Focused +1.

It's absolutely not clear at all in the rulebook because "Resolve Results" isn't explicitly in big bold letters shown as being a part of Step 5. It's mentioned in a few sentences regarding Step 5 that you "then resolve the results after determining success," but that's A) so easy to miss and B) worded rather poorly, since you can interpret "determining success" as being the end of Step 5.

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What things don't work when 'after succeeding' / 'after failing' / 'after resolving' triggers are applied after resolving the results?

The only one I can think of is the Dead Rider's Defensive trigger, as 'after failing' would occur after taking the damage, but the trigger stops damage. I think that's just an editing mistake -- copying over Armor without rewording it.

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Read the Take Aim! Trigger on Lucius' Issue Command. Justin rewrote it to apply the focus before the Action is taken.

"After succeeding, but before the target takes the (1) Action,

the target gains Focused +1 until the end of the Turn."

Resolving the results is actually part of Step 5, so you normally apply "after succeeding" after the results are resolved, meaning Desiccation works as intended. If the Take Aim! said just "after succeeding" (like it did originally), the target model would take a 1 AP action, THEN gain Focused +1.

It's absolutely not clear at all in the rulebook because "Resolve Results" isn't explicitly in big bold letters shown as being a part of Step 5. It's mentioned in a few sentences regarding Step 5 that you "then resolve the results after determining success," but that's A) so easy to miss and B) worded rather poorly, since you can interpret "determining success" as being the end of Step 5.

This interpretation is correct. The closest official ruling to this is the following:

Q: When Mei Feng triggers Thunderous Smash from Jackhammer Kick does she push into base with the enemy model before or after it is pushed 3" away?

A: Thunderous Smash is a trigger with the language “after damaging” which means that it is applied after Step 5: Determine Success of an opposed duel (rulebook pg. 32). During Step 5 the results of the Action are applied and one of the results of Jackhammer Kick is being pushed into base contact. So, Mei Feng would push into base contact, and then the target would be pushed due to the Thunderous Smash Trigger.

It's true that Thunderous Smash is "after damaging" instead of "after succeeding," however both of those types of triggers have the same timing, they just rely on different variables. (i.e. after damaging and after succeeding triggers happen at the same time, but if you soulstone to prevent all damage you can stop an "after damaging" trigger but not an "after succeeding" trigger).

What things don't work when 'after succeeding' / 'after failing' / 'after resolving' triggers are applied after resolving the results?

The only one I can think of is the Dead Rider's Defensive trigger, as 'after failing' would occur after taking the damage, but the trigger stops damage. I think that's just an editing mistake -- copying over Armor without rewording it.

I would argue that this still works. The defensive triggers on the riders reduce damage, and you can not reduce damage that has not yet been determined. However, I can still easily edit the riders. Let me know what you think.

Anyway, I'm making this post more to open up the discussion than to make an official ruling (note the stickied thread at the top of this forum that states all posts by employees are opinions and all official rulings come only through the official errata/FAQ).

Given what I just posted, how could this be more clear? What would you like to see in the next FAQ?

Edited by Justin
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Practical example, Kirai uses Sundering or Sonnia uses Flame Burst. One is the gaki trigger after succeeding and the other is the burning trigger after damaging.

If Kirai kills with sunder, does she get a Gaki then? And would Sonnia get a witchling with the Reincarnation upgrade?

Yes Kirai gets a Gaki. The trigger applies the condition after succeeding which is determined in the rulebook, page 32, in the common timing terms used in Trigger;

After Succeeding: These effects are resolved after Step 5, and only if the model with this trigger wins the duel.

Step 5 is at the end of the duel, before flipping damage.

Reincarnation is not a trigger but an ability that´s summon a Witchling Stalker when the Burning target is reduced to 0 wounds (i.e. before being killed/sacrificed/something different). So in you example Sonnia would get the option of summoning a Stalker.

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Step 5 is at the end of the duel, before flipping damage.

Damage is done in Step 5, not after, since the results of the Action are resolved in Step 5. My above question about damage being applied was for illustration.

Honestly, a complete Duel Resolution List would solve it, like in Warmahordes or Magic. Something like:

Duel Starts

Declare Soulstone use here

blah

blah

blah

Action ends

Triggers occurring after step 5 resolve now

Something to that effect in FAQ/Errata would solve the problem completely.

Edited by DocSchlock
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So, if I follow Justin's logic, when my Mei Feng is kicking your Rider:

  • At the start of step 5, I'm "going to do 2/3/6 damage to you."
  • At the end of step 5, I'm "doing 3 damage to you."
  • "After Step 5", the "after failing" trigger kicks in, and I'm "doing 2 damage to you."
  • Then in the post-"After Step 5" timeframe, you put a little [2] marker next to the Rider to show lost Wounds. (And if that kills it, place scrap/corpse and remove the model...)

Is that accurate?

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That is accurate. The only question is what if that 3 damage kills the Rider? Do I get to keep it on the table until the 'after failing' trigger resolves? Models reduced to 0 Wounds are removed immediately (barring 0 Wound and killed triggers), and since damage is suffered during Step 5, not after, my Rider would be dead by the time the Trigger occurs.

This is assuming 'immediately' doesn't mean 'after the action resolved.'

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If my reasoning is accurate, the "3 damage" never reaches the Rider, it exists in the subjunctive state of "things that will happen".

It's not until much later in the sequence (and here's the thing that bends my brain: after things that happen "after damaging"), that the model loses those wounds.

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If my reasoning is accurate, the "3 damage" never reaches the Rider, it exists in the subjunctive state of "things that will happen".

It's not until much later in the sequence (and here's the thing that bends my brain: after things that happen "after damaging"), that the model loses those wounds.

Fair enough. No need to go there.

Rewrote the trigger:

Df © Grave Whispers: Reduce the damage suffered by this model during this Action by 1 for each C in its final duel total, to a minimum of 1.

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