Concern's about Ophelia's Upgrades

[Piranhamoose]

After playing with Ophelia's new upgrades I have some concerns about them being a little OP. Ophelia should not be able to target herself with (0)Your Turn! and (0)Move It! I also feel that (1)BOOM! should result in the loss of the Threatnin' Gun. That's just my opinion after playing her. Aside from those few issues, I really like what the upgrades do. They offer some impressive versatility and provide a lot of character.

I'd try to do a more thorough write up, but I just received a package with two sets of Terraclips, so instead I'll let other discuss while I go play with my new toys.

[rgarbonzo]

I await your write up as to why you feel they are OP. Did you play with or against her?

[hypoking]

Unfortunatly I ink this isn't a mater of 'should' so much as it is 'will.' I'll get Around o explaining myself in more detail later. Game theorizing inhibited right now by Fenway.

[Piranhamoose]

I was playing with Ophelia vs Nicodem. This is after only one game, so it's not much but it's what actually came up.

1. BOOM!: So, unlike the other two attacks, BOOM! does not remove the upgrade. Using this ability in conjunction with Young Lacroix is actually quite effective at paralyzing groups. The trigger is built in which causes a horror pulse, it has a weak damage of 4, and it doesn't eat up extra AP from having to reload it. Between her and the young, they can spam so many shots that they'll not only paralyze groups of models, but also leave them half dead in the process and get your opponent to empty most of his hand.

2. Your Turn!: This is an awesome ability, but Ophelia should not be able to target herself with it. She's already very mobile and very deadly at range. As a gremlin player I'm used to being able to out run an enemy model, but with this ability combined with the long range of her guns, Ophelia can unload several shots into enemy beatsticks and still out run them. And because it's a place and not a push, I don't have to be concerned about what kind of terrain might get in the way. There should never be a case where a model so deadly can attack the bulk of an enemy crew without fear of retaliation.

I also think it's more fluffy if it's something where she just launches other kin and not her self.

3. Move It!: The complaint is kind of like the above. It gives an extra AP to a model that just doesn't need it. But mostly, my issue with this one is that it doesn't seem so fluffy that she'd be threatening' herself with her own gun. I guess this one isn't as much of a balance issue.

As hypoking pointed out, I feel that these abilities will be tweaked eventually. I just wanted to bring it up since no one has really dedicated a thread to the her new upgrades.

[rgarbonzo]

Not that I disagree with you but I will point out that the Young are shooting it at Sh4 so they have a disadvantage from the start. Their regular gun is Sh4 with a Dumb Luck trigger that probably will kill the Young. Also they do not have Gunfighter or on any on the guns so they have to stay out of melee combat to be effective. I would rather use any of Ophelias upgrade to shoot with them because of this reason.

The Move It action I see as similar to Misaki's Stalking Bisento where you can get a free attack from. Comparing it to Stalking Bisento which requires you to discard a card as opposed to getting a negative twist for an attack. Ophelia can mitigate this with her Rough Rider pistols to get it to a straight flip. Also lets her Reload a gun that the situation calls for.

The Your Turn action lets her move around the board which is great. I love me some mobility on a model, but you cannot interact for the rest of the turn so I can see the usefulness. It can let her escape combat from a scary model and then try and shoot it dead.

These all compete with her "Ooh A Girl" and "With My Eyes Closed". Depending on board positioning Strategies and Schemes those other (0) actions may well be a better use of her AP. Now I'm not saying that this is an all inclusive list of what she can do, just yeah the (0)'s on the upgrades are good but they are like Batman's Utility Belt, she has an answer for almost any situation. Now the better question is what other upgrades will people run with her?

The General Gremlin upgrades are fantastic Dirty Cheater is almost a must include, with Focus you can guarantee a strait flip for damage that you can cheat and then heal a wound. Awesome! Quality Mash Liquor gives some healing to the crew without having to hire a Hauler. Stilts I think is an underrated upgrade. The ability to reduce damage to 0, yes please, discard the upgrade no problem I'll add something else! Liquid Bravery I cannot say enough about. Granted with So'mer you get more mileage but to be able to make all attack actions that you resist with WP a flip is amazing.

[Manic Mouse]

I think people are complaining about OP because these upgrades give Ophelia more options, but before she was completely neutered and boring. Seamus has a totem that has as good a gun as the young can get but also is good in melee with a decapitate trigger and can be made pseudo immortal with the hat and teleport half way across the board when needed. Every master is really strong, and before I felt Ophelia had been hit far too hard with the cuddle bat, these upgrades take her up to the same level as Ramos or Misaki, I don't think they make her any better. The new 0 actions aren't any better than her old ones, just have different uses and I will still be using her original ones a lot. Each of her guns have their pros and cons including her rough riders. The young were dead weight before simply being used to keep Ophelia upgraded which other masters don't have to worry about, at least now they're useful in the game.

Yes the upgrades have made her a lot more flexible, have they made her OP? I've yet to see her as any more OP than Misaki for example. Before she was a lot weaker, more boring and had to blow soul stones (on young) and AP to keep her upgrades which weren't even that much better than regular upgrades that don't get discarded. A jump in power does not instantly mean someone is OP, especially coming from the poor base of beta Ophelia compared to other masters in the game. Seamus' totem can one shot a 12SS model (since they have low def) quite easily, Misaki gets 4AP with positive flips to damage and attack. It's easy to make anything sound OP, but Ophelia could do nothing like that before.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Manic Mouse

[rgarbonzo]

Also want to throw this in there that the TN 12 Wp duel is moderate at best since the average WP is about 5.5. So You need a 6-7 on the duel to pass. Granted sometimes you may flip higher but that is the whole point making your opponent cycle their deck. Sure you may paralyze a lot of models because of lousy flips or change your opponents plan mid game but as the old saying goes, no battle plan ever survived contact with the enemy. Compared to the Golems WP 15 duel it's almost nothing especially since the BM and Wesley can lower a targets WP by 4. Then it gets almost almost impossible. I'm glad that they gave Ophelia some utility rather than beta Ophelia who just ran around and shot stuff.

[Manic Mouse]

I'm glad that they gave Ophelia some utility rather than beta Ophelia who just ran around and shot stuff.

Indeed, I ran Ophelia a few times in the beta and if they hadn't done what they have I wouldn't have been running her ever again. She wasn't a master in the beta, more like a 12SS level henchman. Her bump in utility and (arguably) power have made her a master again, she can now go toe-to-toe with Perdita or Misaki rather than being a pale imitation. Every other master I played with felt, to me at least, more powerful and more useful.

This is a matter of relativism, they're comparing old Ophelia to new Ophelia and the jump is big so they deduce she is OP. They aren't comparing her to her peers the other masters. Is she significantly better than Misaki or Seamus? As a player of those other crews I feel these changes have brought her more in line with them, not made her better than them. Seamus for example requires a TN12 duel to target him with anything or you're paralysed. If you're within 6 you get -2 Wp, and he heals 2 wounds if you fail. With hanged even passing only gets you one action, then you have to do it again. His totem can one shot anything in the game depending on luck and easily against expensive models which generally have low defence. Oh and Seamus also has a ranged attack that heals him, despite having 12 wounds, df 5, impossible to wound and hard to kill while he can with his magic hat negate an attack, pass the hat to the totem which can then negate an attack and place the hat right beside seamus to pick up again. If he hits you in melee he can make you insignificant for the rest of the game, give everyone -2Ml to attack him and other amazing things. Do I think Ophelia getting an extra AP, a TN12 horror gun and her young being able to shoot that gun is more OP than that? Nope, it makes her maybe slightly better offensively than Seamus and the copy-cat but her and her young are much more fragile and easily killed in comparison to seamus who is hard to hit with his terrifying, can absorb massive damage and easily heal. In fact my opinion is that Seamus is still better than Ophelia.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Manic Mouse

[Mason]

Ophelia can also be Devoured by things like Flesh Constructs, Wendigo, and Hoarcat Prides, since she's Height 1.

[rgarbonzo]

Ophelia can also be Devoured by things like Flesh Constructs, Wendigo, and Hoarcat Prides, since she's Height 1.

Check and she is the only master that this can happen to without being Paralyzed and she is likely to keep this distinction unless the Gremlin get more ht 1 masters.

Indeed, I ran Ophelia a few times in the beta and if they hadn't done what they have I wouldn't have been running her ever again. She wasn't a master in the beta, more like a 12SS level henchman. Her bump in utility and (arguably) power have made her a master again, she can now go toe-to-toe with Perdita or Misaki rather than being a pale imitation. Every other master I played with felt, to me at least, more powerful and more useful.

This is a matter of relativism, they're comparing old Ophelia to new Ophelia and the jump is big so they deduce she is OP. They aren't comparing her to her peers the other masters. Is she significantly better than Misaki or Seamus? As a player of those other crews I feel these changes have brought her more in line with them, not made her better than them. Seamus for example requires a TN12 duel to target him with anything or you're paralysed. If you're within 6 you get -2 Wp, and he heals 2 wounds if you fail. With hanged even passing only gets you one action, then you have to do it again. His totem can one shot anything in the game depending on luck and easily against expensive models which generally have low defence. Oh and Seamus also has a ranged attack that heals him, despite having 12 wounds, df 5, impossible to wound and hard to kill while he can with his magic hat negate an attack, pass the hat to the totem which can then negate an attack and place the hat right beside seamus to pick up again. If he hits you in melee he can make you insignificant for the rest of the game, give everyone -2Ml to attack him and other amazing things. Do I think Ophelia getting an extra AP, a TN12 horror gun and her young being able to shoot that gun is more OP than that? Nope, it makes her maybe slightly better offensively than Seamus and the copy-cat but her and her young are much more fragile and easily killed in comparison to seamus who is hard to hit with his terrifying, can absorb massive damage and easily heal. In fact my opinion is that Seamus is still better than Ophelia.

Well I don't think she is better or worse than Seamus or any other master she feels like she has come to their level power wise.

[Manic Mouse]

Well I don't think she is better or worse than Seamus or any other master she feels like she has come to their level power wise.

Personally I feel Seamus' defensive/healing abilities and the instant kill triggers on him and his totem push him above Ophelia, but the point is as you say: she's now more in line with other masters, she's competitive and a threat. That doesn't mean she's OP, it means she's exactly where she and every master should be.

[Sybarite]

Was Ophelia ever not a threat and not competitive? She's really scary and dangerous in 1.5 at least, but maybe she wasn't that great in the beta?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I never heard that she was weak or non-competitive. I often heard she was one dimensional and boring.

I'm also in the group that thinks she shouldn't be able to use her 0 action to give herself an extra AP.

It's true Misaki can do a similar thing, but then Misaki doesn't have anywhere close to the damage output that Ophelia's Rough Riders do, nor does she have an option to use her bisento at range or Melee.

I think it is still silly good if it just works on other Gremlins and not herself. I'm not calling for her not to have it, just an opinion that it is too good being able to use it on herself.

[hypoking]

Well this grew fairly quickly. Anyway, here's my two cents.

Ophelia will be cuddled. I want to be as emphatic about that as I can. I am as certain about this as I've ever been about anything that has to do with this game. Writing is on the wall, ink is on the page, and the word is writ. Moses is just taking his sweet time on the way down the mountain while we cavort and revel with our shiny and blasphemous self-targeting kin-ergy zeroes and sticky upgrades. We all need to come to terms with this.

She will be cuddled. It won't have anything to do with fun and it will have exceedingly little to do with balance. As an aside, it may well be that Ophelia's too strong currently. In my own play experience piloting her the current RAW makes her exceptionally potent at the moment. I don't say broken because I don't feel I have enough tabletop experience to make that call. I'm not sure that in the few weeks we've had since the book dropped that enough support's been gathered to support the case one way or the other.

She is going to be errata'ed because right now she doesn't do what the design team wants her to. It's that simple. We need to consider, as much as I dislike the term, intent here. My assumption is that the kin-ergy zeroes were designed to replicate in faction utility, not to expand it. They change things up just a little bit so there's a modest hint of something different. Your Turn is supposed to let her push other models around about the same distance she could already pull them. Move and Burn lets Kin have access to a different form of condition removal to the version supplied by Shrug Off. Move It lets kin do what they were already doing, just slightly worse.

You need to ask yourself in what world will Ophelia get a jet pack for free. You have to ask yourself in what world will Ophelia get fast for free. Ophelia doesn't get upgrades that shake things up. she's not designed for them. Ophelia's upgrades aren't supposed to rock the boat, that this thread even exists means something has gone wrong somewhere and will be corrected at the earliest opportunity.

In regards to Boom, just look at every single one of her other upgrades, the ones we actual ended up with and the ones seen throughout the beta and ask yourself what about this one was supposed to make it special. Don't think about what should be, don't think about what would be fair, just ask yourself what would make the most sense aesthetically.

[rgarbonzo]

I don't think she will be for one reason. Perdita. Yup the Family that Ophelia and her kin emulate. Why you ask? Well lets take a look at 'Dita and 'Phelia and see what's what.

Basic Attack Actions

'Dita can shoot marginally better has Crit Strike so she can get to min damage 4 with a stone at range. With a :masks, oh on damage, you say now I can cheat? Okay can go to max 5, this all does not include a red joker for damage. Comparable to 'Phelia's Rough Rider pistols but the edge on Damage goes to Ophelia since Thinkin Luck will double damage with :rams. 'Dita has a 4" range advantage on 'Phelia as well. So not including triggers Dita has a better base damage spread of 2/3/5 vs. 2/3/4 , with triggers Ophelia pulls ahead. Perdita has a 4" range advantage and Ophelia has paired. All in all I call it even.

Abilities

Perdita has a Wk of 5 vs Ophelia's 6 so Ophelia can move up to 3" farther than Perdita. Relocate on Perdita seems about on par with Your Turn on Ophelia's upgrade. At the cost of a card Dita can push up to 8" towards a friendly family model. At the cost of a (0) action Ophelia can place herself within 8". Yeah the place effect is better but with proper planning Perdita can move the same.

Perdita's only (0) action on her base card, Heros Gamble. She can discard her whole hand and draw a new one. This ability is equivalent to 3 SS if you have a full hand. Have a bad hand hell you don't need to discard a SS for more cards just draw a new hand. So long as you cycle 2 cards with it you are even. If you cycle more then you actually are getting a 2-3 SS advantage over your opponent because we already know that 2 cards cost 1 SS. Not to mention that you get low cards out of your deck to make your attack actions more likely to succeed.

On her upgrades they are similar to the General Gremlin upgrades. Perdita can be Stubborn and Bulletproof, ignore any duels required to target a model and give out +2 Wp to all friendly Family models within 8", no actions are ever required for theses things to happen they just are. She can also (0) to ignore cover (which makes her on par with Ophelia for shooting ability since the flip for Rough Riders is cancelled out by the cover). Her other (0) on her named upgrades let her ignore Incorporeal and Armor. Ophelia cannot do that. So Perdita can always do her min damage of 2 to everything in the game. If she has a ram it goes to 3. Ophelia can only ever hit an incorporeal model for a maximum of 4 damage and it costs her a wound to do so, Perdita can do min damage 3 against Incorporeal models. Against armor Perdita can hit for anywhere between 2-7 damage, Ophelia can only hit for 3-7 against Armor +1, anything higher than that and her damage drops off. That includes her Gun Upgrades. So realistically on her upgrades she shoots worse than Perdita, has 4" less range, and a bit higher damage. On triggers Perdita can (as mentioned) go to a damage spread of 3/5/6 or 4/6/7 depending on how many :rams she has in the final duel total. Ophelia's damage profile on her Threatnin Gun (which seems to be causing the most consternation) is 4/5/6. Hmmm about right in line with Perdita's damage.

Is it the TN 12 Horror Duel. I believe I covered that in another post but most models need a 6-7 to pass. Seamus is scarier, hell Brewmaster is scarier at Wp duels than Ophelia!

Another reason to have a gun that Ophelia can keep on her is the Plink! ability. Being able to discard an upgrade to reduce damage by 1 is a great ability. Not so great if your Young have shot all your guns and you have nothing to Plink! off. Also bear in mind that the Young can only shoot when they are within 6" of Ophelia so if you go teleporting off you can leave them in the dust in a hurry.

I don't ever try and guess intent because I'm not the guy who wrote the model. However I will say that these changes didn't come in a vacuum and it's not like the design team wasn't playtesting changes to these models even after the beta closed.

Edited September 1, 2013 by rgarbonzo

[Manic Mouse]

Also add Diestro to Perdita and you have someone who is a monster at range and probably the best melee master in the game since opponents are on negative defensive flips against Ml7 with auto critical strike, and even if they survive that will get shot to bits by the rest of the crew, conveniently companioned.

Like I said before, every master can do crazy good stuff. Beta Ophelia couldn't. I have yet to see how anything Ophelia can do is any more "OP" than Perdita with Diestro, Seamus, Misaki or even McMourning with transufsion - expunge for 9 damage - if you die (which you probably will) summon a flesh construct.

@fetid Misaki *does* have the damage output of Ophelia. She has the same 10" threat range but because she gets a + to attack and damage with Ml 7 she's going to be hitting for mod/sev damage mostly (4/6). Ophelia will mostly hit for weak/mod which is 2/3 or 4/6 if you spend a soul stone or cheat to hit her trigger, not forgetting this wounds Ophelia too. Misaki's decapitate is better than Ophelia's 8 max damage with trigger. And she won't have to spend soul stones to do that damage like Ophelia, meaning she'll probably have another 5SS model, or more for her henchmen. So actually, even with 4AP, I think Ophelia is probably still slightly less offensively good.

And as for never hearing that she was weak in the beta, I'll tell you she is. We even played once on a field with minimal cover, Ophelia against Misaki. And Misaki nearly won, 1 wound in it when she was killed, with my opponent forgetting to stalk models a few times too. Ophelia *should* have had a massive advantage with that terrain and if my opponent hadn't made mistakes I would have lost.

When you look at the numbers vs masters like Perdita or Misaki, Ophelia doesn't actually have any real advantage. Very few people have put her on the table enough to make a solid argument she is OP, this is all knee-jerking because she's significantly better than she was in the beta (but not necessarily other masters). In my humble opinion these changes have brought her in line with the other masters who all had awesome stuff before when she had nothing going for her. Low damage and range unless you cheat/stone and bleed wounds which makes her about the same as other masters who don't have to do that, little utility and blowing stones and AP on young just to keep her mediocre and situational upgrades on her.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Manic Mouse

[hypoking]

I don't ever try and guess intent because I'm not the guy who wrote the model. However I will say that these changes didn't come in a vacuum and it's not like the design team wasn't playtesting changes to these models even after the beta closed.

I'm not entirely convinced that these upgrades were playtested. To be clear that is not meant as a critique, just observation on logistics. These were last minute changes squeezed into the book in the scant few days before thing had to go the presses. It's not as if Ophelia was the only thing they had on their plate at the time either. We're talking about an incredibly tiny window here into which the devs had to finalize every other little aspect of the game in addition to making this particular tiny corner of it feel appreciated and validated

Now, if you want we can imagine that in this tiny sliver of time the devs got together and through meticulous planning, informed debate, and the careful application of game theory decided on the rules we have now. You can believe that in the waning days of 1.5 they looked out on their work and decided that Ophelia of all models merited being one of the fasted, deadliest, and most agile pieces in the game. Until the eratta hits your free to think that this is all part of some grand design.

You can also chose to believe that somebody made a few understandable formatting errors in, again, the last second before a book went to publication. The devs have said the point of the zeroes is to give Ophelia synergy with the kin. That is not my interpretation, that's all explicit. We can assume that in a reasonable world any last second revision is also going to come with the secondary goal of 'not ****ing up the overall power curve.' Self targeting zeroes and sticky guns don't just go against Ophelia's existing power curve they eliminate whatever scant incentive the upgrades provided for running Kin. Why do you need to take Raphael or Ravage to get the most out of an upgrade when she can them more effectively by herself? In my arrogance and my vanity I believe accident is more probable than design.

Look, I really dislike intent myself. When possible I prefer to ignore it. When I'm actually playing the game I like to just use what's on the cards and in the book and sort of pretend that the rules were found buried off in the wastes somewhere. I find it's simpler that way. However, when you're trying to predict future trends it should be acknowledged that the game is being designed by a few specific dudes off in a metaphoric smoke-filled room and not, say, the collective will of the ages or the infallible invisible hand of the gaming market.

As an aside, this same cabal of dudes is on record saying they want to move away from the direct Ophelia-Perdita comparison. That were having this conversation on account of Ophelia essentially getting Relocate should likely be seen as a sign that, again, something has gone wrong rather than an indication that they've taken a liking to Ophelia.

Edited September 1, 2013 by hypoking

[rgarbonzo]

They can say that they do not want a direct comparison between the two but there is a problem with that statement. Ophelia and her Kin are written as mirrors of the Ortegas. That kind of like saying that they don't want Pere and Papa to be a direct comparison. Ophelia will always be compared to the person that she apes.

Now Ophelia has grown in that she now doesn't buff anything around her all of that went to Somer and Lenny. Ophelia is supposed to shoot stuff and do it well. She has always been one of the most mobile Masters (Henchmen) in the game. She has a Wk of 6 and 3 AP. She can still cover a whole lot of board without using her (0) action to "teleport". Okay so she is a bit more mobile but with that comes some risk. Why would I want to rush her forward and put her into the enemy crew where they can focus on her as a target? Makes no sense. Yes she CAN use these (0) actions on herself or she can use them to slingshot Pere into something so HE can then attack it. She can use it to "teleport" Rami out of Melee so he can shoot or to a better shooting position. She can reload herself or have one of the young reload one of her guns. Again she is predicated on shuffling upgrades around and there are a ton of great upgrades that you can put on her. Going against Neverborn or Ressers? Liquid Bravery all day long, along with Stilts. That leave me room for one last upgrade to purchase. Dirty Cheater is an awesome upgrade to heal up to 3 wounds in an activation. Stilts is kinda like Seamus' hat but it allows her to be Ht 2 so she can't be devoured unless she is paralyzed. There is a ton of utility in the basic Gremlin upgrade for her not just her guns. To think that one upgrade will break her anymore than some of the other upgrades that are out there is nonsense.

[hypoking]

Yes she CAN use these (0) actions on herself or she can use them to slingshot Pere into something so HE can then attack it. She can use it to "teleport" Rami out of Melee so he can shoot or to a better shooting position.

Just want to note briefly that stock-standard she's capable of doing all of the above with Ooh A Girl. Which is kind of my point. The kin-ergy zeroes replicate existing utility with small margin for variance. If it wasn't for the lack of a targeting restriction they'd hardly be worth debating. They would be interesting little diversions that would probably loose out to the wee lass' hardwired options. What I'm saying here is that they wouldn't rock the boat. Boat rocking is typically something that people like to avoid in those intimate moments right before a hastily patched together vessel is thrown into uncertain waters.

I'm not saying that these upgrades break her. I'm not saying that she's broken. I kind of went out of my way earlier to say why I wasn't going to make that call. My belief is that any pending changes to Ophelia have almost nothing to do with balance. Fairness and commonsense don't enter into the equation. I just don't see a scenario where a) this is how she's meant to function or that given the opportunity to make her function as intended the people who came up with that scheme in the first place would let it slide.

It doesn't matter how Ophelia compares to other masters on the table. What maters is if there's a disparity between how she currently functions and whatever blueprint the devs had in mind with the Reload mechanic. Now for my part I think there is a gap there and its a big 'un.

[Manic Mouse]

People seem to be under the impression that Ophelia auto triggers rather than having to spend soul stones and leech wounds to do reliable good damage. I think giving her 4AP makes up for the fact she has to do that to keep up with other masters. Without her trigger Ophelia deals mediocre damage for a master, less than Perdita and at lower range. Even with 4AP and getting her trigger on every attack (unlikely to happen) she is still only about as good at damage dealing as Misaki if we take her decapitate into account, so in most cases where she won't be triggering every attack she'll be worse.

And I also think that we *should* be comparing her to other masters. That's what balance is about. The creators *intend* her to be competitive, that's the one thing we know for sure regarding intent. The numbers show, contrary to many people's claims, that Ophelia isn't any better than Perdita or Misaki or other masters that I'm familiar with. Without her trigger she does worse damage and at a lower range than her contemporary, if we're including triggers then we should be including them on her competition too since she doesn't have any increased ability to hit that trigger.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Manic Mouse

[rgarbonzo]

A big point about the open beta was that Masters would be balanced against each other rather than balancing Faction vs Faction. As far as her Ooh a Girl action it is a push which is actually worse than a place because everything from impassable terrain to models will stop the move.

[Dumb Luck]

Threatining Gun doesn't drop after firing? Tasty.

[WindlordRyu]

I don't really see why you're trying to compare Ophelia and Misaki, they're basically as different as two combat masters can be. Perdita/Seamus, or even Sonnia/Rasputina, makes a lot more sense IMO.

Perdita has a Wk of 5 vs Ophelia's 6 so Ophelia can move up to 3" farther than Perdita. Relocate on Perdita seems about on par with Your Turn on Ophelia's upgrade. At the cost of a card Dita can push up to 8" towards a friendly family model. At the cost of a (0) action Ophelia can place herself within 8". Yeah the place effect is better but with proper planning Perdita can move the same.

You don't compare pushes and places in this game. Especially not pushes directly toward another model. An 8" place is vastly superior to any kind of 8" push, even if it was a 1.5 push without a toward clause the place would still be a lot better. And even with perfect planning by the Perdita player it's not even close to the same. Perdita can only move in perfectly straight lines, with no terrain or models in the way, to a location that extremely stereotyped to your opponent. (Not trying to say Ophelia is OP, I'm just hating on the new push rules. Cause I think they suck. A lot.)

[Manic Mouse]

I don't really see why you're trying to compare Ophelia and Misaki, they're basically as different as two combat masters can be. Perdita/Seamus, or even Sonnia/Rasputina, makes a lot more sense IMO.

I compared her to Misaki, McMourning, Seamus and Perdita because I run all those crews and have an idea of how they perform, that's all. Against all of them she isn't really any better when you take a good look, despite people claiming she is OP.

And the Misaki comparison came up because the both have been given effectively 4AP, where someone claimed Misaki can't do the damage Ophelia can (which isn't true at all when you run the numbers). Every master should be compared to every other master when we're talking about someone being "OP" anyway, so why shouldn't she be compared to Misaki? I am intimately familiar with both crews and am thus qualified to talk about their relative strengths as masters and IMO Misaki still has the edge on the "OP" Ophelia since decapitate is so lethal and she doesn't have to spend soul stones (and wounds) on her trigger to deal decent damage. Add in shadow stride, bullet proof, a + flip on Df/Wp when soulstone-ess and the ability to charge through terrain and models and Misaki is also probably more survivable too. Compared to any of the masters I am familiar with I don't see how Ophelia can be considered OP.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Manic Mouse

[WindlordRyu]

She shouldn't be compared to Misaki because they do their thing (killing stuff) so differently that you have to take their crew, and therefore all models available to them, into account when trying to figure out if it's balanced. It's like adding Ramos into the mix and claiming he sucks because he can't reach their killyness.

And how do you even compare Misaki's damage to Ophelia's. Trying to get actual numbers for Sudden Assassination becomes way to abstract when your opponent can discard cards or soulstones to stop the kill effect. Same with survivability, Misaki lives by avoiding hits altogether while Ophelia has access to a whole bunch of healing. How survivable they are depends almost entirely on what they're up against.

Misaki can't actually Shadow Stride, it's minions only.