Da Git Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) My thoughts on Misdirection. It is an extremely good upgrade especially since you can just stone in a Mask to get the trigger off. However I don't think it is OP as there are ways around it. 1. Engage Misaki one on one. 2. Discard 2 cards (not ideal but it is an option). 3. Shoot her when she's on her own (or when there are only her friends nearby, but in these cases you are generally better off shooting her friends!). 4. Pulse/blast/aura her (can't use Misdirection on these!) I also think it should be 3SS to make it a tougher choice, atm it is maybe a little too auto-take (I'd still take it at 3 though!) Edited August 21, 2013 by Da O&F Git Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 My thoughts on Misdirection. 1. Engage Misaki one on one. She's packing diving charge, she will just charge into a cluster and make you stab yourself. Since it's a generic 10T upgrade, Mei Feng is very capable of pushing stuff around to cause the same situation, though you can at least get out of the 2" range to try and control it, but the moment she blows a mask, she either leaps away or misdirects depending on you hitting or not. 2. Discard 2 cards (not ideal but it is an option). It's an absurdly high cost, most times you'll probably blow a card to connect, plus 2 cards to get your attack to actually work, I just imploded your hand with minimal effort, did this against Lilith and she had no hand after 2 attacks and her last one also got misdirected, yes, I was lucky to get the masks, but 14 cards in the deck give it to me, it's not such a strange situation and low cards work with it too. 3. Shoot her when she's on her own (or when there are only her friends nearby, but in these cases you are generally better off shooting her friends!). I'll tell my ressers to do that! 4. Pulse/blast/aura her (can't use Misdirection on these!) Same as with "shoot it!", not everybody is packing this sorts of abilities at hand. So basically, you have to spread out and pretty much ignore the very killy master that is punching you. Seems incredibly good to me, specially when you admit that you would use it without a second thought at 3 stones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrManson Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 2. Discard 2 cards (not ideal but it is an option). It's an absurdly high cost, most times you'll probably blow a card to connect, plus 2 cards to get your attack to actually work, I just imploded your hand with minimal effort, did this against Lilith and she had no hand after 2 attacks and her last one also got misdirected, yes, I was lucky to get the masks, but 14 cards in the deck give it to me, it's not such a strange situation and low cards work with it too. Just a question here, shouldn't Misaki basically be dead after two attacks from Lilith? If Lilith hit with two attacks, Misaki used Misdirection, and whatever took the hit discarded two cards each time, that's basically two Lilith-attacks still hitting Misaki, doing 6-12 damage (with + to the damage flip). That's why I think it's not OP at all, since if you just chuck the two cards you get a perfectly valid hit on Misaki, especially if it was a low mask that triggered it, giving you a straight or even a + flip on damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) Just a question here, shouldn't Misaki basically be dead after two attacks from Lilith? If Lilith hit with two attacks, Misaki used Misdirection, and whatever took the hit discarded two cards each time, that's basically two Lilith-attacks still hitting Misaki, doing 6-12 damage (with + to the damage flip). That's why I think it's not OP at all, since if you just chuck the two cards you get a perfectly valid hit on Misaki, especially if it was a low mask that triggered it, giving you a straight or even a + flip on damage. Still had stones for prevention which saved her from the hipotetical death you mention and the second was BJ which was just dumb luck on my part, but wouldn't have changed the situation since the third attack was used to kill Barbaros. Then Kade charged in and got redirected into Lilith and since there were no more cards on my opponents hand that was pretty much it. Also, models that could 2 shot a master are a rare thing, so being able to get only 2 strikes in is a big problem, specialy if swarm tactics are the plan. Edited August 21, 2013 by Razhem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevorin Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 Isn't that kinda the definition of OP? I mean, extremely seldom are rules so completely bonkers that increasing the price wouldn't make them not OP? No. To me the definition of OP is game breaking. No matter what you do, you cannot get past <OP rule here>. So instead you pack it up. Much like Pandora vs Ophelia crew in 1.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 No. To me the definition of OP is game breaking. No matter what you do, you cannot get past <OP rule here>. So instead you pack it up. Much like Pandora vs Ophelia crew in 1.5. In my mind "overpowered" doesn't necessarily mean "utterly broken". For example, pre-cuddle Dreamer was OP (that's why he was cuddled) but you could still beat him sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Git Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 I completely agree with Sevorin, OP is something that breaks the game or makes the game not fun for one player. There are ways around Misdirection and in a couple of months I don't think it will be a big problem. I don't think it is that different from Ripost, it just has different drawbacks. You mentioned Misaki has diving charge to get where she wants, well too be fair, she only has that. Combat. No shooting, no real magic, no crew support, she's not even that manueverable compared to any other master. I'll give you 2 cards is maybe one too many, particularly how easy it is to get masks with using SS You mentioned Rezzers have no ranged... Seamus has one of the biggest guns in the game, McMorning has Sling & can take Guild Guard, Nicodam has Decay & Rigor Mortis, Mortimer has his shovel, there's Crooked men & Hanged. Belles can Lure your other models out of combat. You can also leave combat before your big hitters strike. Tactics time! aside from a bit of bad luck on your friends part (BJ!) here's what I would done: the scene (i'm gathering) Barbie's already activated & Misaki charges in & doesn't kill him! Obviously this is a bit of a guess since I don't know details like Wds, hand, cards played etc... but its theoryfaux! If Lileath is in the CC, do what he did (& hope for better luck!), but skip the last attack. Or move out of combat & kill someone else. Leave Barbi to his fate! If Lileath isn't in combat, go kill something else! next turn if you win initiative, activate Barbi first & do some damage before taking asm many hits as he can before dying. Hopfully Lileath can then go in & finish the job! It seems that charging Kade in was a massive mistake as he had no hand & Misaki can Misdirect with impunity. Go kill her crew! & as always play to the strat! sometime it doesn't matter about killing the master her use them to isolate her in some out of the way place. Don't have the time I'd like to write this some hopefully came ok! Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevorin Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 In my mind "overpowered" doesn't necessarily mean "utterly broken". For example, pre-cuddle Dreamer was OP (that's why he was cuddled) but you could still beat him sometimes. Only beating him sometimes is game breaking. If you have to specifically build a crew (tailor) to take on a certain crew, its game breaking. Game balance is if I pick a crew, and you pick a crew (based on objectives of course) both of us should have an equal chance of winning. That said, no game is perfect, so as close as you can get to an equal chance is what you strive to accomplish. If you can only beat him "sometimes" that does not promote a balance...so I consider it game breaking. Misdirection is not game breaking, or OP. If you have assassinate, it might be difficult, but then my question is why are you picking assassinate? You reveal schemes after you see your opponents crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewomie Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 Only beating him sometimes is game breaking. If you have to specifically build a crew (tailor) to take on a certain crew, its game breaking. Game balance is if I pick a crew, and you pick a crew (based on objectives of course) both of us should have an equal chance of winning. That said, no game is perfect, so as close as you can get to an equal chance is what you strive to accomplish. If you can only beat him "sometimes" that does not promote a balance...so I consider it game breaking. isn't this a matter of perspective though? I mean... you only ever win against someone "sometimes" right? If you always lost, you would say they were OP, but if you consistently won, then you would be providing the "NPE" for your opponent. also, "Sometimes" is just about the most generic and loosely defined word anyone could have used here. is "sometimes" 1 out of 100 matches? or is it one out of 3, 4, 2 even? It's terrible and really isn't backing up your point, or anyone else's. Also, I use the word "you" loosely, these were not statements directed at anyone in particular. I know how internet lingo likes to destroy topics like this. haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 To give an idea of why I went after misaki as hard as I could was killing misaki would have netted me 3 pts on assassination and would have helped me achieve extermination. Musaki was also stopping me interacting in the center. In hindsight I should have simply lured misaki to Jade but with no cards to guarantee it and Jade getting bonus damage when other friendly models are there I took my poor odds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 To give an idea of why I went after misaki as hard as I could was killing misaki would have netted me 3 pts on assassination and would have helped me achieve extermination. Musaki was also stopping me interacting in the center. In hindsight I should have simply lured misaki to Jade but with no cards to guarantee it and Jade getting bonus damage when other friendly models are there I took my poor odds I had a 13 and the red in hand, those lures weren't going to go off, I assure you. Also, aside from pretty much doing lockdown on Rancor, because even though he had assassination, he wasn't the one that engaged Misaki, it was Misaki who charged barbaros in a way to get the cherub and Lilith inside and the plan for her was to always try and have a sacrificial pawn in my melee to jab. It frankly made me feel dirty with how absurdly effective it was and it sort of soured the end of the match for me. I've played with Misdirect once and faced it twice and there wasn't a game were it didn't have a huge effect and I didn't feel it's power wasn't completely unwarranted for how many models have access to it and it's cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 Pretty much like Nexus of Power for NB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevorin Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 isn't this a matter of perspective though? I mean... you only ever win against someone "sometimes" right? Except when it is against the Master (or crew) not the player. I could agree if it is against a player, but when you face a particular master and only win "sometimes" then there very well could be an OP issue. Masters that come to mind are pre-cuddle Dreamer, Hamelin, or even Pandora with the "filth" list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 Waay off topic now. So were there any changes to Beckoners? I'm guessing not, since they weren't listen in that NB post. What about the Illuminated? Did the Shafted ability on the Crooked Men change? That was one of the biggest stinkers in the whole beta test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephalumps Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 So were there any changes to Beckoners? I'm guessing not, since they weren't listen in that NB post. What about the Illuminated? A buddy of mine sent me pictures of Lynch's crew after GenCon. No changes to Beckoners or The Illuminated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehter Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I didn't read the entire thread as I'm late to the party, but Nicodem can sack any friendly undead model now for Zombie Fodder, not just Mindless zombies. It helped me stay alive at GenCon during a "dirty" Vic charge trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I didn't read the entire thread as I'm late to the party, but Nicodem can sack any friendly undead model now for Zombie Fodder, not just Mindless zombies. It helped me stay alive at GenCon during a "dirty" Vic charge trick. Just checked the document and he could already nuke any friendly undead model to stay alive. Any changes to the fog? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenton Crack Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Just checked the document and he could already nuke any friendly undead model to stay alive. Any changes to the fog? I can try to look up "fog", but its not ringing any bells. Is it in a rezzer upgrade or where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I can try to look up "fog", but its not ringing any bells. Is it in a rezzer upgrade or where? It's an action in one of Nicodem's upgrades, I think it's Reaper's Grin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenton Crack Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Found "fog" on Reaper Grin. No change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 That's too bad. As it is, I don't see myself ever using it much. Maybe a few more games will change my mind though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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