Pandora 2.0 Help?

[Domime Nox]

I think the main reason she was having such a hard time was WHAT was coming at me. It was never really direct damage. It was McMourning giving her oodles of poison counters, then using Expunge with a guy that increases the damage of poison counters. It was nasty. So I would have like 5 poison counters in a turn, then he'd go "Remove them all, and each one does 3 damage" and I'd have to either pray for a good flip for the attack to miss, or blow ss to mitigate damage.

[Joel]

The real problem there was not killing Sebastian as your top priority - crew drops a lot of poison tricks once he dies.

[Domime Nox]

Yeah... I didn't know what he did until it came time for poison marks to come off. I managed to make short work of a Flesh Construct, a Nurse, a Rotten Belle and Zombie Chihuahua. I don't know Resurrectionists at all, and when I saw the Flesh Construct coming for me, and Rotten Belle pulling my Candy through to his back line I went into the middle of things, and Sebastian was on the outskirts.

[Clement]

I think the main reason she was having such a hard time was WHAT was coming at me. It was never really direct damage. It was McMourning giving her oodles of poison counters, then using Expunge with a guy that increases the damage of poison counters. It was nasty. So I would have like 5 poison counters in a turn, then he'd go "Remove them all, and each one does 3 damage" and I'd have to either pray for a good flip for the attack to miss, or blow ss to mitigate damage.

That's not actually how expunge works... it does damage equal to their poison condition, the poison doesn't do any damage really. As such induction doesn't apply. You should have only taken 5 from that.

[Domime Nox]

I see, that is good to know.

[Joel]

I've written a blog post about Pandora.

http://joelfaux.blogspot.co.uk/

Let me know what you think.

[Fenton Crack]

I've written a blog post about Pandora.

http://joelfaux.blogspot.co.uk/

Let me know what you think.

Nice. It's a great supplement to your Pandora primer you gave on Malifools.

[Joel]

Nice. It's a great supplement to your Pandora primer you gave on Malifools.

Thanks I wanted to get a bit more detail in, and writing helps me structure my thoughts.

[Brettqpublic]

I've written a blog post about Pandora.

http://joelfaux.blogspot.co.uk/

Let me know what you think.

Thanks for the primer. I found it to be an excellent read as I'm returning to the game after a fairly long hiatus.

Quick, noob question, if a model misses Pandora with a melee attack are they considered to have failed a WP duel for the purposes of Misery?

[Gorbad]

No, Pandora have passed a WP test as she used WP, but if you attack with Ml you have failed a Ml test. That's something important to remember. If you are not yourself using WP its not a WP test for you.

[Mason]

Thanks for the primer. I found it to be an excellent read as I'm returning to the game after a fairly long hiatus.

Quick, noob question, if a model misses Pandora with a melee attack are they considered to have failed a WP duel for the purposes of Misery?

No. The model will have failed a Ml duel, while Pandora will have succeeded on a Willpower duel.

[Brettqpublic]

No, Pandora have passed a WP test as she used WP, but if you attack with Ml you have failed a Ml test. That's something important to remember. If you are not yourself using WP its not a WP test for you.

Thanks for the clarification. That makes a lot of sense.

[Vorschlag]

"expose fears

This allows her to resist with Wp instead of Df if she chooses. Since she also considers the duel a Wp duel, winning the duel will allow her access to fading memory and push her out of danger if she needs to be."

Is that correct, it's causing a disagreement here as the fact that the opponent isn't using Wp to attack would go against "wins an opposed Wp duel"

I'm hoping this interpretation stands but require it clarified.

[Tigerstyle]

I had the same confusion at first, but what you've quoted is indeed correct. Fading Memory kicks in when she wins an opposed Wp duel. She always considers anything where she resists on Wp to be a Wp duel (from Expose Fears) so when she is attacked in an opposed duel it is therefore an opposed Wp duel.

[Marcalla]

"expose fears

This allows her to resist with Wp instead of Df if she chooses. Since she also considers the duel a Wp duel, winning the duel will allow her access to fading memory and push her out of danger if she needs to be."

Is that correct, it's causing a disagreement here as the fact that the opponent isn't using Wp to attack would go against "wins an opposed Wp duel"

I'm hoping this interpretation stands but require it clarified.

The attacker (using Ml to attack with) is performing a Ml duel. the opponent (Pandora using Wp to defend) is performing a Willpower duel. The overall duel is an Opposed Duel, but each side is involved in whatever stat duel they are using.

As such the attacker can only use related Ml triggers, and the defender can only use related Wp triggers in this scenario.

P.S. I don't have the RB handy for a page refrence, so this explanation comes from the call-out box on pg 15 of the beta Rulebook.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Marcalla
added the post script footnote.

[phreaker187]

The attacker (using Ml to attack with) is performing a Ml duel. the opponent (Pandora using Wp to defend) is performing a Willpower duel. The overall duel is an Opposed Duel, but each side is involved in whatever stat duel they are using.

As such the attacker can only use related Ml triggers, and the defender can only use related Wp triggers in this scenario.

P.S. I don't have the RB handy for a page refrence, so this explanation comes from the call-out box on pg 15 of the beta Rulebook.

This is correct. Each duel type is based on whatever stat each model is using.

[zKoTTe]

I had a game with her last night, and i had mixed feelings about her...

I like they have halved her bobble of hurting, but i won a game in no more than 3 turns, by just standing still and use her new pulse with Wp 14 duels, add the Def 14 duel-thingie upgrade and you have on of the best damage dealer in the game, it's the closest i have ever been to an Autowin-Button.

Maybe add the Terrifying upgrade and you are almost impossible to touch, i still love her though, but i just really wanted to use her as a balanced Master.

I have some minor tweaks that would make her a lot more attractive:

1) Make the pulse Wp 12 duel or give it a casting cost of some kind.

2) Make the Def 14 duel upgrade either more expensive or only Def 12.

I know it's too late to do anything, but i just wanted to share it anyway

But besides all this stuff, well Wyrd you have done a great job and really loves the new Edition.

Edited October 2, 2013 by zKoTTe

[Fetid Strumpet]

I would disagree. I was running her with a similar load out last night and I would very much argue that that particulor load out does not make her the best dmg dealer in the game, nor is that combo anywhere close to an I win button. For example an ice golem activated next to her, took 1 dmg from Fears given form, and then smashed pandora out of the game.

The pulse, while good, is also not game breaking as it is only decent if you are able to pull it off in a cluster of enemies, and in my experience the best thing about it is the card drain it will cause. You will very rarely cause any significant dmg with it, unless you manage to pull it off in a cluster of low wp enemies, or have a poltergeist live long enough to get up there as well, and even then you cannot force the models you actually want dead to fail and take dmg.

The base version of Raspy, with no upgrades, is WAY deadlier and more control oriented than pandora can ever dream of being in this current edition. A focused Decembers curse is going to do 5 dmg, reliably to the target Raspy chooses to do dmg to, and any models within 100mm are then going to take 4.

Again I'm not arguing Pandora isn't decent, but even given the load out you are suggesting the only way it will ever deal the dmg you are suggesting is in very corner case scenarios. Plus after an opponent gets hot by it once they learn, "gee, it might not be a good idea to cluster my models in a ball if I'm playing against pandora." Just as they do after playin raspy or Sonnia.

[Vanilla_Dice]

The fact she has such a large engagement range, and that fears given form is for any model, including friendly... I've given up using that upgrade, it just leaves pandora too exposed as you don't want things near her, and really you need to keep her sorrows close by if you want to really put out the hurt.

[Gorbad]

I've used that upgrade in nearly every game I've played with her and while its tricky its hardly impossible to use (try running 3 models with 3" melee range with it for a real challenge). Partly because I don't think Pandora really needs a cluster of sorrows that close and partly because you can always just move them up if you do need to. It might restrict your activation order a little, but you can always decide to cheat or take damage if the situation is right anyway.

[Phototoxin]

I'm struggling a little with her. It's more the 'formation' - should I keep my sorrows really close to trigger off the misery? I have the vomitworm who is good for an extra card/discard but otherwise pointless! Coppellius is great with her but I'm really struggling to make a workable crew. I'm having issues with Candy too (see this thread).

I'm thinking this list next: Pandora {+1 healing upgrade,}, Vomit worm, Doppleganger, Coppellius, Lilitu, 4 Sorrows = 45 and then I have 5ss to play with. The depression upgrade is pretty good too (buffs sorrows). Which would give me a max cache too.

[Joel]

Too many sorrows

That was my first thought on seeing your list. Also, you might want to look at Pandora's more offensive upgrades which will help. Pandora is a master who likes to switch upgrades and totems for different matchups, rather than keep a fixed crew. But we can work with what you have.

Formation: sorrows are going to be busy doing schemes and strategy. In this crew you can have them move very quickly. Keep one near pandora - a second can use "misery loves company" to get near her if necessary, but the third should be trailing coppelius, doppleganger and lilitu to add to their potency.

Things to mull over:

Fears given form on pandora

The box opens in all matchups except rasputina

Fugue state in squatters rights (aside: primordial magic also useful here) or if distract/cursed object in scheme pool.

[Drix]

So new box out this month! Do we have a definitive date?

The boxed crew of Pandy, Kade, Candy, 3 Sorrows, and Poltergeist comes out to 36 stones before upgrades and cache. How "good" is the crew in and of itself vs other boxes (besides Raspy and moreso Sonnia, I know they're both uphill battles)? What models are a good idea to take the crew to 50 stones? The Doppleganger and Beckoners seems an obvious choice, but I've heard that diversity is very important with Pandora (which I guess is why a beatstick like Kade is in there.) Bear in mind I don't have an issue with buying models that are still undergoing 2nd wave beta.

Also how is the finished Poltergeist totem now? I understand that Pandy benefits from having multiple totems on hand, but how is her base totem?

The box opens in all matchups except rasputina

OK, as a Seamus player I can see the value in such a high Horror test, but to take it in every game? The paralyze trigger on Voices seems like it's pretty good competition. Those Who Dwell Within is nice, but it seems like gravy more than anything else.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Drix
forgot about becks

[Phototoxin]

I wouldn't take Pandora with Candy at anything less than 50ss. I just can't get value out of her. Coppellius, Doppleganger and Liliu are also good with her (coppy = horror, all the horror!, doppleganger = copy abilities = awesome, liliu = wp duels and some nice protection vs melee with her 4" bubble)

[Joel]

So new box out this month! Do we have a definitive date?

The boxed crew of Pandy, Kade, Candy, 3 Sorrows, and Poltergeist comes out to 36 stones before upgrades and cache. How "good" is the crew in and of itself vs other boxes (besides Raspy and moreso Sonnia, I know they're both uphill battles)? What models are a good idea to take the crew to 50 stones? The Doppleganger and Beckoners seems an obvious choice, but I've heard that diversity is very important with Pandora (which I guess is why a beatstick like Kade is in there.) Bear in mind I don't have an issue with buying models that are still undergoing 2nd wave beta.

Also how is the finished Poltergeist totem now? I understand that Pandy benefits from having multiple totems on hand, but how is her base totem?

OK, as a Seamus player I can see the value in such a high Horror test, but to take it in every game? The paralyze trigger on Voices seems like it's pretty good competition. Those Who Dwell Within is nice, but it seems like gravy more than anything else.

For me, the horror duel serves two purposes on pandora. Firstly, and most importantly, it burns opponents cards. Either they flip high (and therefore haven't got that flip for an attack) or they cheat to avoid becoming paralysed (and lose another card from their hand). This protects pandora. It paints a large "don't target me" sign on pandora one that many people start to respect - and this keeps her alive when people should kill her.

Secondly, it's yet another set of Wp tests an opponent has to take, so yet another way misery can trigger without me having to spend actions. The more of these I have, the better. It kills opposing models faster and also reduces resources my opponent as to use when I take my own actions.

If I'm lucky, it might actually paralyse something too.

So yeah, for me it's almost an auto-include.