Free M2E stats cards in pdf format are worth fighting for .. don’t You think so?

[HalcyonSeraph]

henchmen and henchwomen

I think it's fine to use the term Henchman as gender-neutral, by the way, considering that half of the in-game henchmen are in fact women and are still called Henchmen.

[Forar]

I'll call 'em what I want! :-P

[Creaturefeature]

I think Wyrd has shown that they go out of their way to get us goodies as much as possible. While having a free PDF download of the cards would be nice, it may not be a possibility.

I've got several models from all the 7 factions and will need to pick up all 7 faction decks. I know the transition is coming and will be putting a little extra back over the next few months with this in mind.

[Guy in Suit]

Its true, I have no desire to hurt others self esteem, so any measuring contest should be avoided at all costs!

And $8 came out off my bum. Just seems like what a deck of 30 odd full color cards should cost. Would be awesome if they were on super thick wet-erasable stock!

[caen]

I would rather prefer if We will be able to stick to the point (free printable version of Faction Decks as free download).

The one (and probably only) argument against free PDF stated by about half of the forum users that had take part it this discussion is that You want to pay (or even pay more) for Faction Decks. So if You want to purchase a Fraction Decks why are You against free printable PDF? You don’t have even to open this hypothetic PDF.

Why You assume that free PDF will generate losses for company? Maybe this free PDF will bring more people to play the game?

In this moment we have free rules and all cards from first book all also free - why You are willing to change this?

And still nobody from WYRD make a statement about this issue - please, give me (us) some answer.

[Voodoo Specter]

I think Wyrd should really consider releasing free pdfs of all cards and possibly the rules as well. Players like me who value the the rules and game mechanics as the most important part of the hoby will be much more willing to invest in a game after seeing how good the game is and how much fun it is to play. I personally was so happy to buy my crews because I had a chance to go through the free rules manual and the v2 cards online and get a feel for the crews I liked the best. Hobbyists whos main focus is collecting and painting models are going to buy them anyway because they are great models. A lot of people will buy the books anyway because of the exellent fluff, art work and easy access to the rules while at the table and most people will buy the cards because having them makes the game easier to play. I think releasing rules and stats free online not only will not cost Wyrd any money but will actually increase the amount of new players joining the game and buying models much in the same way the rules avalable for free download enticed me and my gaming group into the world of malifaux.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Voodoo Specter

[Viruk]

One of the things I didn't like was having to correct my Dreamer cards. Took me a while to do it right and then... the updated versions were released.

I already own quite a few models for Malifaux and would love to have a chance to avoid buying new cards for them. I do hope Wyrd will make the transition to 2nd ed. as smooth as possible for gamers and a free pdf with would be very helpful.

[Bedknobs]

I too would like access to all the new rules as I have a few mercenaries. I think an interesting parallel is card decks.

Everyone on here have their own Malifaux deck? Of course you do, even though an ordinary pack of cards will do just fine. Similarly, people will buy the faction pack for their own faction regardless of if they can also get it free. Its just the odd model from other factions that people would use the free resource for.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm happy to buy the cards I need, and hopefully get on board a war room style app when it comes out if 2.0 is any good.

[CreepingDeath]

I am all for people who want pdf cards. I myself though do not. All I currently ask is will faction decks be sold in places like Wayland etc so that uk fans can buy them without being screwed over on postage costs. If we in the uk can buy models and books we should also be able to buy cards too which currently is not an option due to how wyrd charge postage for them.

Would it be so hard for a higher up from wyrd to confirm that faction decks will be available everywhere....

I still have v1 cards from when I originally played. I refuse to update them due to postage. I think it would certainly ease minds knowing that faction decks will be available to buy from again Wayland, firestorm etc.

[Athan Allgood]

I like Wyrd a lot. I want them to make a profit, get bigger, and keep on making high quality items.

That said, I think making free PDF downloads for revised cards would be a really nice way to say thank you to the fans in this time of transition. We've spent our money, we've invested in the game, and will continue to. Free PDFs would be a wonderful way to ensure this.

Also, in my estimation, there is very little to lose. Those who download the PDFs obviously intend to play, which means books and future models are going to be a revenue source. Offering PDFs gives players one less reason to stop playing (assuming the game stays fun, which I am confident it will). A disgruntled player who stops buying offers no future profits, and may even poison their playgroups against the game, costing Wyrd in the long run.

I dont know. Mayhap the expectation is that the M2E will bring in a large influx of new players to offset those lost... but it's a small community we have here, it seems safer to keep the customers you already have happy.

[DeleteAccount]

As long as they are available in store, I could care less frankly. Anyway, I'd give a barebones version on pdf (no art and so on) and call it a day, if people want to play they clearly don't need more and if they want something that looks purty, make them shell out the cash. Now an app I'd be a lot mire interested in.

[Malovane]

I'm guessing the faction decks with include stat cards and upgrade cards, in which case I can't imagine them being given away for free. I think too many people feel entitled to free pdfs. The reason pdfs of cards are available are due to errata releases. Far easier than having to reference an errata sheet. Yet not all models have free cards online because they don't have updated rules. Its a limited subset available free for a very specific reason. This does not equates to every second edition card available for free. A free card update for errata is a part of post release development costs (fixing bugs, clarifying wording, etc); its not something you do with a new product release. You're getting a full revamp & a new upgrade system not just some card errata. The reason free rules are available is because the starter sets don't include them, I can see that continuing with second ed. Redeveloping and rebalancing an entire line of miniatures is not cheap, why is it so unreasonable to pay them for their work?

Also, speaking as someone who does dabble in every faction, if you've already invested in multiple factions, the investment of buying every faction deck shouldn't be a major concern. Its a nominal fee compared with the previous investment. Think of it as a maintenance fee to continue playing every faction. Alternatively, buy 1 or 2 of your favorites and pick up the rest later if and when desired. The cost is completely relative to the size of investment you've already made and how deeply you desire to continue playing every faction. If you can't spare the funds to buy new faction decks, then you are probably in the wrong hobby to begin with.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I honestly don't see a very strong argument being presented for Wyrd giving away the stats on their models for free. Does any other successful company make all their rules available for free? That's an actual question. Has anyone on this board studied business and this particular niche market in particular enough to be willing to discuss this matter. Those who are "fighting" for free PDFs, would you be willing to risk your continuing livelihood on such a move, so that if Wyrd were to take a hit financially that you would share equally in the risk? If not, then in my opinion, while you are certainly entitled to your opinions, and more than entitled to discuss them, your arguements to at least me seem fairly weak.

You could be entirely right, but without more specific data I would still continue to default to the impression that giving their rules away for free could be a very costly mistake for Wyrd.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Fetid Strumpet

[DeleteAccount]

Well, I know that Anima Tactics publicly distributes it's cards, but it's a bloody zombie game wise... confrontation also did it, or at the very least, did not have any problem with centralized scans on well known sites. The new batman game is doing it too, but it's more out of necessity than anything since there are no other way to get a models rules and the release has been a train wreck of epic proportions and one of the biggest wastes of potential I've seen in a while. Pretty much the great commonality is that it's games with no books or other equivalent platform to release the rules since Anima hasn't released a book in ages and confrontation never released a book with profiles.

In Malifaux case, there is no reason whatsoever for Wyrd to do it outside of goodwill (which is nice when it's goodwill, not when it seems you are expected to do it because you are the cool guy but if you don't do it now you are a greedy bastard *hint hint*).

If they decide to do it, go them, id they don't do it, I'll buy the decks I need to buy at the rhythm I feel is appropriate for me and call it a day and while I take my time buying said decks, I'll just use the beta pdf rules keeping account of what are the final changes, because frankly, if you want free pdf's, just pick up the beta ones and edit out the stuff that is different. And if anyone feels they are "moneygrubbing" or some other nonsense because they don't release super awesome pdfs of everything for free then you seem to be taking it to some very steep extremes. Yeah, these people make money out of models, books and cards aren't going to make them rich, but I big chunk of money is going right now into developing 2.0 which theoretically be good and make them grow, but if it flops it could pretty much be the death of the company, compensating part of the project costs with the decks or new books seems more than fair to me. Like with Privateer Press, Wyrd has my respect and has given me no real reason to distrust them in this sense, so till they do something that makes me distrust them, they got my trust.

[Dracomax]

Well, I don't know about large scale, but on small scale, did the sales of the models with v2 cards go down significantly after those pdfs were posted for free?

I'm not sure how much you would be able to draw in the way of inferences, especially since they essentially outdated the books(although book 1.5 sales were fairly strong, weren't they) but it seems likle a good place to start.

[rgarbonzo]

Decks are great, I for one am looking forward to replacing my cards this way. The down side is I own 95% of all the models for 3 factions + Outcast stuff and used the hard lamination at FedEx, all that money lol. Gonna need to redo them again. Or just buy a good lamination machine.

Card Sleeves are user friendly, on the other hand I've been looking at lamination machines..

[Athan Allgood]

The question is, will it hurt more not to give the character cards away?

Taking it as a given that there will be a percentage of current customers lost due to the edition change (just a fact. Any change will lose some), the quandary then becomes how much of this can be mitigated by giving the cards away.

Would the profits from selling the cards outweigh the lost revenue for those whom this step could make the difference? What is the perception of the company itself worth? Would offering the cards actually bring in new customers who add to future revenue streams?

Now, for me, I will likely buy any available cards either way. I just like professional looking cards. However, I know my respect for Wyrd, and as such my loyalty, would sky rocket if Wyrd offered them online. To me, that sort of company loyalty far outweighs the (I presume) mediocre profit the extra card sales would offer.

This isn't as easy as saying "They deserve to be paid for their work"... it's about what will do the company the most good as a whole.

[rgarbonzo]

Better yet can we get the Faction decks in a plastic to keep them from wearing out and also to be able to withstand marking on them? I for one would love this, no card sleeves or lamination, just set up the crew and play!

[DeleteAccount]

Yeah, but there is a big fat difference between "it would be nice" and "buah, they don't give out free super sexy pdfs!, they suck now and are worse than GW!" don't you think? Precisely the whole point of the open beta is to let everyone have a look and that will be another form to hook the players to the new system or concept so they decide "yeah, it's worth it to put a few bucks to get new cards".

Basically, them selling them is the most normal thing ever for me, art, design and so on don't pay themselves. That they decide to do a free distribution? go them, but that is going beyond what is expected and I really have to insist that if somebody is "totally turned off" because they have to buy a couple of decks, well frankly, seems to me their resolve is pants and chances are that id they can't drop 10-15$ for a pack of cards, who says they were even going to buy models anyway?

[Voodoo Specter]

I honeistly don't see a very strong argument being presented for Wyrd giving away the stats on their models for free. Does any other successful company make all their rules available for free? That's an actual question. Has anyone on this board studied business and this particular niche market in particular enough to be willing to discuss this matter. Those who are "fighting" for free PDFs, would you be willing to risk your continuing livelihood on such a move, so that if Wyrd were to take a hit financially that you would share equally in the risk? If not, then in my opinion, while you are certainly entitled to your opinions, and more than entitled to discuss them, your arguements to at least me seem fairly weak.

You could be entirely right, but without more specific data I would still continue to default to the impression that giving their rules away for free could be a very costly mistake for Wyrd.

Wyrd do have the data and my point is they should look at it before they make the decision not to release the pdfs free to download. You are right that I dont have the figures myself but I would be willing to bet that having the errata cards and the rules manual avalable for free had no negative impact on their sales and likely helped to increase the number of minatures they sold.

I agree it may be a risk and there are no other companies are doining it but the strength of the model range alone will be more than enough to keep wyrd in profit and no other company making a victoriansteempunkhorrorcowboy skirmish game using cards instead of dice but somtimes you have to take risks to stand out in your market.

Also I a lot of people are stating that because the developers have worked hard on the rules Wyrd should be making money from the sales of cards and rule books (which people will still buy even if you make the basic information avalable free for download) I think the developers should be recognised for their work (my personal main focus in the tabletop games I take part in) but we should move away from thinking giving it away for free makes their work valueless and instead consider how much value to the company as a whole and how it could promote the sale of Wyrds minatures and other products.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Precisely the whole point of the open beta is to let everyone have a look and that will be another form to hook the players to the new system or concept so they decide "yeah, it's worth it to put a few bucks to get new cards".

I always thought it was to have a larger player base test the game...

who says they were even going to buy models anyway?

No one. However, it's the same reason you put little food samples in the supermarket or online, and why people put webcomics online for free: some of the people who try it will buy it, where, if they'd never tried it, they otherwise wouldn't have bought it. It's a gamble, and, in my opinion, one with a much lower risk than reward in the case of Wyrd.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I disagree, but since neither of us has seen the data Wyrd bases their decisions on it is all speculation.

[DeleteAccount]

I always thought it was to have a larger player base test the game...

No one. However, it's the same reason you put little food samples in the supermarket or online, and why people put webcomics online for free: some of the people who try it will buy it, where, if they'd never tried it, they otherwise wouldn't have bought it. It's a gamble, and, in my opinion, one with a much lower risk than reward in the case of Wyrd.

It is for both, to get a larger pool of players kicking the game AND to expose people to the new rules in an "unstable environment" where they aren't flat out giving everything away nor expecting you to go buy "Malifaux 2.0" day 1 without having the slightest idea what to expect. I still remember PPs open beta, I loved it, but it was clear it was hell for them because they had to wade through stupid amounts of feedback and so on. Basically, an open beta is a LOT of hassle, that they were ballsy enough to go that route speaks volumes to me (a hell of a lot more than releasing pdf's with the final cards).

Also, they could just put core rules and the profiles for one starter of each faction as public domain and get EXACTLY the same result as your supermarket analogy, they don't have to give you all the game's references to do that.

Also, Voodoo Specter, I'd dare say new players won't really give a poop either way as long as they can get a henchman to teach them or there are choice starters with a few profiles to download, they are new, most new people tend to come in with their eyes and if they want some documentation, they will just ask around and get cliff notes which tends to be enough. The whole PDF petition is clearly oriented to the old gamer who isn't in the mood to buy x decks to upgrade, lets not muddle the waters here. Would it be nice? of course, is it necessary? no. Will this decision cost them a lot of sales? Frankly, I doubt it, because again, this is more oriented to the established Wyrd fanbase than the new guy and the established wyrd fanbase will decide if they want in during the open beta. If they don't like what they see, they simply won't buy, no matter how free they are, if they like what they see and have a good impression, there are huge chances that they'll go along with it and buy the decks.

[SpiralngCadavr]

I don't think there can be two whole points.