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Understanding Dark Debts Crew Selection?


D-A-C

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Hey everyone.

I am primarily a Ressurectionist Player (I play Seamus mostly)and really love the theme of the Dark Debts crew.

However I have two questions before going ahead and getting them along with a few pieces for my Seamus crew.

1. Are they Competitive?

Basically, I've started entering tournaments and am just curious if I would be better running Jakob in tourneys were I am actually trying to win the prize over my regular Seamus crew?

2. How are you supposed to compose his crew at 35ss level (actually at any level really)?

Basically the list of models I would purchase would be

Jakob + Huggy

x3 Illuminated

x2 Beckoners

x3 Depleted

Mr Graves

Mr Tannen

That is everything that is a 'themed' Drak Debts crew right?

From that:

  • Jakob + Huggy
  • x2 Beckoners,
  • x3 Depleted

These are the auto-includes for every situation. strategy and scheme and form the core of the group from what I can see, which leaves exactly 13 soulstones left for crew selection at 35ss.

So when exactly are you supposed to by entering Graves, Tannen and Illuminated in the crew, i.e what sorts of situations and opponents?

In fact, despite reading the really helpful word doc posted here, I dont actually understand what the heck Illuminated are supposed to do?

Mr Graves = A sort of beatstick

Mr Tannen = Card control abilities

Illuminated = ...?

I'm just not understanding the situations when these three models deserve to be chosen, so any help would be appreciated.

3. Finally, what crew member/s do you sacrifice when playing smaller games?

I'm thinking maybe you drop a Beckoner as with less opponents the need for brilliance drops aswell, so 2 at 25-30 is superfluous to requirements.

The depleted, from what I can see are the core minion and you really need all three considering the crew lacks healing and the ability to summon or make more, is this correct?

Which again brings back, what the heck do illuminated do and what strategies or opponents warrent Graves and Tannen respectively?

Alot of question I know, but I love the theme of this crew as the Casino running drug peddlers would make a perfect counterpart to my Undead Hooker Pimp Seamus crew lol.

I'm also banking that for competitive play, the new masters will inevitably be alot stronger than Seamus for competitive play, but Im just trying to understand the crew a little better before I spend the £60 for all the themed dark debts models.

Thanks guys.

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Actually I've found beckoners to be the key minion model, their use far outranking the depleted and topping the illuminated too. If you've been playing Seamus and his belles, the power of lure should be pretty clear to you too.

Mr. Graves is a bodyguard for Lynch and a board-control beatstick - useable in most games/situations. Illuminated are useful when you expect to need more magical attacks than simply Huggy. Depleted....not the best really. I'd rather include a brutal effigy most times for the 4 stones. I've not run Mr. Tannen yet, so no comment on him at this time.

You don't need lots of ways to hand out brilliance - 1-2 models more than Huggy is plenty.

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I've not tried Tannen yet, but I think he will be quite hard to use effectively without dying very fast. He'll probably annoy the crap out of your opponent and cause all kinds of trouble if you manage to get him in and survive, but I don't see how I would do it personally, so I haven't bothered trying it yet until I learn the rest of the crew better.

Graves I've proxied a couple of times and I'm not fully sold on him. His board control in Bar's Closed is pretty good, both early game to boost up the movement of your own crew, and later to mess with your opponents positioning. And Show Ya The Door is just so much fun to use.

However, I do feel that him having Flurry instead of Melee Expert is a bit of a letdown, but I guess that's what the learning curve is for him. Learn how to use the rest of your crew (via Huggys Obey or Beckoners Come Hither for example) or his own Bar's Closed to move models into his melee so he can flurry them.

Depleted.. I'm very dissapointed in these guys. You'd think they are hard to kill and great to spread brilliance and whatnot. But they're not either of the two. They die very quickly, and you need a crow-trigger to spread any brilliance when they die.

Had they exploded without the trigger, I think I would've liked them.. But I've stopped taking them because I can't figure out what to use them for. They are fairly quick though, I have to give them that, with smart use of their push towards a brilliant model. And within sight of Huggy, they are significant. So I suppose you could use them to take objectives.. but there are better options for cheap, quick objectivegrabbers in Neverborn and Ten Thunders alike.

Illuminated seem to get alot of bad press on these boards, but I like them. They have a solid statline and with Brillshaper they can be somewhat flexible for what the situation demands. Also, they are the only ones that don't care when Huggy saps them for 1Wd at the end of turn 1 or 2 since they regenerate.

And I don't think I need to mention the Beckoners.. Just watch out for stuff that's so fast/long ranged that they can attack you without risking brilliance. I play alot against von Schill and he one shots them from 22" away.

I only wish I had a good use for Lynch himself.. he's a decent gunslinger and objective grabber, but I'm always hesitant to put him out there. I think I need to learn to be a bit more brave with him and test out his own capabilities more. The thing that saddens me a little is what I read about him before he was released. I thought he would be a card and hand manipulating master that messes with your opponent. But I find Dead Man's Hand does more good for the enemy than it does for you, and he really doesn't do anything else with cards than that.

Anyway, I think those are my views on the Dark Debts models so far, I haven't been using them overly much though. I'd be happy to hear if someone else has good tricks and uses for the depleted and more reasons why people don't like Illuminated.

oh, and I keep wishing I could obey my own models each time I activate Huggy, wouldn't it be awesome!? *devil*

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I don't quite get the Illuminated hate. I think three is redundant and hurting the crew because you could be adding diversity into it, but one or two are great, both for being a semi reasonable tank, a model that can toss out Brilliance to benefit the Beckoner or Huggy, and a good source to heal Huggy. And they can get the job done. Very versatile (but for 6 stones, I expect them to be REALLY good at one thing or pretty versatile at a lot of what I need them to do!).

On the same token, I don't know there are any 6 stone models I would field three of. Torakage certainly seem a little overboard and lacking in diverse models.

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1. Are they Competitive?

Yes, very much so. They have been used in a number of tournaments since release and players are finding the crew very competitive. Jakob may not be the same as the rest of the neverborn crews, but he certainly sits well in the overall tiers of competitive masters.

2. How are you supposed to compose his crew at 35ss level (actually at any level really)?

The models you have listed are the ones defined in the current book as having brilliance. Beyond that, Jakob is able to use any Ht 1 Woe (Candy, Kade, Iggy), Sorrows, and Stitched Together. When run as a Neverborn Master, he can hire from the Neverborn selections as normal.

How to compose your crew is really based on your play style and what your trying to do by Strategies and Schemes. Understanding the role each of your models can play is important. In my opinion, the models you list break down as follows:

  • Jakob - Decent Gunfighter and mild support piece (DMH/The source)
  • Huggy - Melee Beater
  • Illuminated - Melee Beater
  • Beckoners - Brilliance spreader / Ranged attack / Control piece
  • Depleted - Tar Pit / Resource to resummon Huggy
  • Mr Graves - Control piece / Back-up melee beater
  • Mr Tannen - control piece

3. Finally, what crew member/s do you sacrifice when playing smaller games?

Personally, my core crew is Jakob/Huggy/2x Beckoners. After that I add models until I reach the game size. I have been playing Jakob as 10T, so I am not sure which way I would go using him as a NB master. Most likely I would toss in some Stitched (at least 1) and then look at Coppelius/Hooded Rider/Twins as my next option. After that its really build as you like.

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Echoing nix here:

Regardless of whether I play him as 10T or NB, the base of pretty much every Lynch crew I run starts like this:

Jakob

Huggy

2x Beckoners

1x Stitched Together

That puts you at 15 stones. After that, you expand based on what your objectives are. Both NB and 10T have good models for movement and killy objectives. As 10T, my first grabs are usually Torakage. Being able to Mistaken Identity Huggy in on something is very scary. As NB, more Stitched, Tuco, or the Twins. Either way, I like Convict Gunslinger and Desperate Mercenaries with Jakob as well, providing a surprising amount of ranged firepower.

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Thanks for all the responses guys.

Looking over these replies, the word doc posted here (ty Draform) and seeing some of the new 10-T some of my friends bought, would I be wrong in thinking that the Dark Debts problem (its not a real one btw) is that it isn't kind of 'auto' but more 'finesse' if that makes sense.

I know someone who recently purchased all these models and is bitterly disappointed in the crews performance on the tabletop, he argues that:

1. What does Lynch do really?

2. Huggy is just ever so slightly too weak on Df (but close to being perfect as is)

3. Beckoners are perfect

4. Illuminated (explictive deleted), but being nice maybe overcosted for their abilities

5. Depleted are reasonably okay but could do with tweaking

6. Mr Graves isrubbish who cant compete with real beatstick models from other crews so should be 6ss

7. Mr Tannen is far too situational and dies ... alot.

In a way his complaints echo alot of what DaemonChild said in his post.

I think that a couple of the 'core brilliance' models need points adjusted.

Some ideas I had looking over the crew:

1. Beckoners are close to perfect, but when Lynch is Master why not the GuildHound rule of x2 = 1ss in Cache? This would make it easier to get some SS with Jacob Lynch IMO.

2. Mr Graves probably should be 6ss as he is not good enough in melee to take down other dedicated models. I didnt get all the info frommya friend who used them in a couple of tournaments recently (i.e what models were causing the problems), but he complained that against other minions that cost the same Graves was getting beaten everytime. Also Melee Expert for him has been an idea floating around some threads.

3. Illuminated are too expensive at 6ss for what they do, 5ss would be better. Then again, the problem could be they are in the starter set (you get 3) so the instinctual thing is to use all three like Death Marshals, Belles, etc, but Depleted would actually better in this role.

4. Mr Tannen ... I dont know really, he dies alot apparently. Maybe the same power as the Beckoners would be useful, so that any model with Brilliance can barely touch him?

5. The Depleted seem fine IMO, (maybe this is the resser in me), but would it not be better thematically and gameplay wise if Huggy could turn enemy models into these when he kills them with his Brilliance give attack/trigger? I just feel like you should be able to make a couple more of them, not in a resser way (sacrificing small ss models for bigger ones) but just some way to get more, because they will die and IMO these are the primary objective grabbers/interactors for the crew.

6. Some healing for the crew would be nice, I think depleted should heal the amount of damage they do or something like that. Maybe get a (0) healing flip when killing an enemy model. Other than huggy I think this crew could do with a way to heal a bit more, because it looks like they could have a tough time coming back from losing models or taking a beating early.

Anyway, all these ideas are based on rumour and hearsay.

I dont own the models (yet!)and havent even played them (so I prob shouldnt be talking). But looking at the info available, reading around blogs/forums and talking to my friend who owns them, the Dark Debts 'Brilliance' crew seems a little off.

This is probably the wrong thread for this ... but do you think is part of the problem with these guys atm is not that they are bad (and still new to learn for everyone) but that some of the other 10-T are a little too good or as I said earlier have more of an 'autoness' about them?

So by comparison Dark Debts models are falling flat, when in fact when playing against other core crews, Lady J, Seamus, Lilth, Soomer etc etc they are perfectly fine?

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I have ran the following:

Jakob (leaving Huggy out for +2 soulstones)

Tannen

Graves

Beckoner

Weaver Widow

Kade

Arcane Effigy

It is a fun build and I have not found tremendous need for soulstones with this crew in most situations; thus maxing crew at 37 and only having 2 SS. What I will say is that you have to be aggressive to get HD into play with this crew. However, the threat of a Teddy drop followed by Kade's backstab has allowed me to play the way I want to.

As DAC pointed out, Jakob really isn't bad...he just may seem lacking against some other crews which are elite.

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This is probably the wrong thread for this ... but do you think is part of the problem with these guys atm is not that they are bad (and still new to learn for everyone) but that some of the other 10-T are a little too good or as I said earlier have more of an 'autoness' about them?

So by comparison Dark Debts models are falling flat, when in fact when playing against other core crews, Lady J, Seamus, Lilth, Soomer etc etc they are perfectly fine?

I'm not sure why you think these guys are weaker than other 10 thunder masters. UK Rocky just recently won the UK GT playing nothing but jakob in every game.

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I'm not sure why you think these guys are weaker than other 10 thunder masters. UK Rocky just recently won the UK GT playing nothing but jakob in every game.

I think the issue is the themed Dark debts guys, not Lynch/HD. Illuminated and Mr Graves for example have a rough competition when compared to other TT models, like Ototo, Kang and Archers.

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Since there doesn't seem to be much information on Mr. Tannen, I'll chime in with what I know about him.

First of all, I am using him in a 10T crew led by Yan Lo, I've only used him twice, and the first time, he did die before he could be too useful (mauled by canine remains because I was too eager to get him as close to the enemy as possible), but in my second game, he faired better, and I saw his worth.

If you're going against a crew with ordinary or low will power, his Pitiful ability becomes a really good way to keep him safe. Immune to Influence is also really helpful against crews that rely on spells with Wp resists.

Apart from these two abilities, he is otherwise quite easy to kill. That's why he needs to be escorted and protected by your other models.

If you can keep him safe, and then put him in a position where his Cooler ability affects a large number of enemy minions or the enemy master, he is effectively halving their hand, which is extremely useful. Plonk him down next to ongoing combats.

The key to keeping him alive would probably be to present greater threats. If the enemy has three Ashigaru beating down on them, they may not consider Tannen an immediate priority...at least until they realise how powerful he is.

He's a bit of a double-edged sword, in that keeping him alive means leaving him to activate later in the turn, so he gets the most out of Pitiful, but then you miss out on his other abilities like Lethargy, Luck's Turning and Bore to Tears. Dampen Fate is a situational ability.

To be honest, Tannen definitely won't fit in every game, against every opponent. But when you take him against the right enemy, he can be such a pain for them, and such a boon to you.

Plus, I think he's just cool in general! Fluff and model-wise, etc.

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I think the issue is the themed Dark debts guys, not Lynch/HD. Illuminated and Mr Graves for example have a rough competition when compared to other TT models, like Ototo, Kang and Archers.

Any themed crew you play will be weaker than an optomised in faction crew. If I went the neverborn route I'd look at Collodi for a few games. Do I think illuminated, depleted, tannen and graves all have some nice stuff? Yes. Would I normally take them? No. He doesn't need them. It's not that they're poor, it's just for my playstyle I'd rather use other stuff.

1. What does Lynch do really?

2. Huggy is just ever so slightly too weak on Df (but close to being perfect as is)

3. Beckoners are perfect

4. Illuminated (explictive deleted), but being nice maybe overcosted for their abilities

5. Depleted are reasonably okay but could do with tweaking

6. Mr Graves isrubbish who cant compete with real beatstick models from other crews so should be 6ss

7. Mr Tannen is far too situational and dies ... alot.

To go quickly through these;

1. He shoots stuff and stays alive and out the fight.

2. Huggy is fine on Df, he's a spirit, with 3 different ways of healing, and use soulstones...

3. Beckoners are incredible.

4. Glass Hammer Illuminated. If they work, they're ace, more often than not though, they die.

5. Really not a fan of depleted

6. Graves is interesting. He's not a pure beatstick, he does board control too. He's a 6ss beatstick with 1ss of control.

7. Tannen is a finnese piece that is awesome in some match ups.

All in all, those who are saying the Dark Debts isn't as good as other crews, that's because you're trying to play it themed, much like running Marcus with pure beasts, Tina with pure Frozen heart etc. It won't work as well as other more straight forward crews, because the game isn't built around theme.

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He's a 6ss beatstick with 1ss of control.

I thought that was a great description too...

I had the opportunity to borrow a friend's Gremlin crew a couple weeks ago and try them out for the first time and had a blast.

I tried out an alpha strike and killed so many models.

And then Graves managed to get into a group of them.

GAME OVER. :)

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I don't run Lynch without Graves, Tannen, and a Beckoner. Not only are they themed, but they are solid models when used correctly. Tannen has been my star performer in most Lynch matchups.

Have to agree with ukrocky's description of Graves. He can pound when he has to but I buy him for that 1ss of cc.

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So do you think this crew can work with only the 'Brilliance' or 'Dark Debts' themed models?

I was going to buy them because I love how they look, have a Perdita crew (so Neverborn hunters themed games), Seamus (pimp vs casino/drug pusher themed games) and thought the models looks great thematically.

But I was also hoping they could split time with Seamus for competitive tournaments too.

I actually like very few of the Neverborn models when taken outside their respective crews themes. So Teddy = Always Dreamer, Nephilim = Lilth etc. I just think they are quite ugly and dont look good next models outsid their theme, unlike alot of Resser stuff which works with everyone else (except Kirais spirits lol).

Plus you can't fit in all the themed models in a 35ss game anyway. I still think three iluminated in the starter set is a waste IMO as who is ever going to field 3 for 18ss outside of brawls?

As I said, I think standard 35ss crew I would field is:

Jacob + Huggy (starting on table) - 2ss Cache

x2 Beckoners - 10ss

x3 Depleted - 12ss

x1 Illuminated - 6ss

Mr Graves - 7ss

Thats a really low ss cache, no abilities to heal outside of Huggy, and Mr Tannen and x2 illuminated spare from the 'themed' elements of the crew.

I think that might be a case of great looking crew, but also one that is optimal or strong on the table.

If this crew could make depleted I would be sold. But as I said that's probably the habits of a resser player talking lol.

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So do you think this crew can work with only the 'Brilliance' or 'Dark Debts' themed models?

I was going to buy them because I love how they look, have a Perdita crew (so Neverborn hunters themed games), Seamus (pimp vs casino/drug pusher themed games) and thought the models looks great thematically.

But I was also hoping they could split time with Seamus for competitive tournaments too.

I actually like very few of the Neverborn models when taken outside their respective crews themes. So Teddy = Always Dreamer, Nephilim = Lilth etc. I just think they are quite ugly and dont look good next models outsid their theme, unlike alot of Resser stuff which works with everyone else (except Kirais spirits lol).

Plus you can't fit in all the themed models in a 35ss game anyway. I still think three iluminated in the starter set is a waste IMO as who is ever going to field 3 for 18ss outside of brawls?

As I said, I think standard 35ss crew I would field is:

Jacob + Huggy (starting on table) - 2ss Cache

x2 Beckoners - 10ss

x3 Depleted - 12ss

x1 Illuminated - 6ss

Mr Graves - 7ss

Thats a really low ss cache, no abilities to heal outside of Huggy, and Mr Tannen and x2 illuminated spare from the 'themed' elements of the crew.

I think that might be a case of great looking crew, but also one that is optimal or strong on the table.

If this crew could make depleted I would be sold. But as I said that's probably the habits of a resser player talking lol.

I would seriously try to find room for Tannen. He is way under-rated as a model. Today, he helped me kill Jack Daw and Kirai in the same game. Due to the modified rules of the strategy, I still lost... but Tannen was MVP of the game, overall.

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The most effective he has been for me was when he was used as card control.

First is frustrate your opponents who have low wp by making them take pitiful tests every turn that they want to target him. Move him within 6" of the group and make sure a beater is close-by. If they want to get rid of the can not cheat without discarding a card aura, they will have to target Tannen. That will require a pitiful test and perhaps drain another two cards from their hand just to cheat. My card is not with me so I'm not sure the action which you have to now activate that gives the opponent one less card when they draw one. If you still have an action, put up another aura.

On Lynch's turn, he can now target models within the crowd with Dead Man's Hand to empty the opposing hand and fill yours or just Holdout Pistol everyone.

Tannen also makes the HD drop (I rarely start with him) much more deadly because models have to discard to cheat when they take the Morale Duel as he comes into play. I like to keep stacking auras while Lynch builds toward a high wound double for HD.

In a fixed list 35-pt 3-game tournament this afternoon, I played the following crew to second place: (beat Lucas McCabe and Von Schill; lost to Kirai/Jack Daw - 1st place)

Jakob Lynch w/ 2SS (HD in reserve)

Tannen

Graves

Kade

Beckoner

Weaver

Arcane Effigy

Edited by xKoBiEx
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Please inform me how to use Tannen effectively, cause I have been ho hum on him every time ive used him

Just get him into the middle of the table, near as many enemies as possible. Then, watch as your opponent's face twists as they try to decide if it's worth discarding to cheat, and wince when they do.

If you place him near key pieces that have to activate early, you can effectively drain an opponent's hand after two activations.

His other abilities are somewhat situational, but Lethargy is decent, especially as an additional defensive ability, and Bore to Tears with YAWWWN triggered on a Master can be fatal, but again, can be situational. Luck's Turning is cool, but as of yet I haven't had it do a lot for me, as I tend to activate Tannen last.

To keep him alive, present bigger threats. Keep him behind or at least near the Hungering Darkness, for example. That way as the HD wails on stuff, forcing your opponent to cheat, they quickly run out of cards, and you are free to do whatever you want against the rest of their crew with relative ease.

Leave him to activate until later in the turn, so you get the most out of Pitiful. If he is close enough to the models targeting him he can give them a hard time getting a hit in. Immune to Influence also helps quite a bit.

I played against a Lynch crew today in a 30ss game. The list was:

Jakob Lynch

Hungering Darkness

Mr. Graves

2 Beckoners

1 Depleted

1 Illuminated

It worked pretty well. Although it was a game more in the spirit of fun and reintroducing an old player to the game, they did well (with my advice as we went). There was plenty of synergy, and having two Beckoners was really good. Although I realise he did some things wrong, I think that setup could be pretty decent.

He did give up a scheme for additional soulstones, however. Remember that that is always an option.

For the list you proposed, D-A-C, I'd drop a Depleted to make up the soulstones.

Edited by Saracenar
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I have only used Tannen a couple times and part of it was finding he seemed to work better with my Misaki so far. I used him to discourage some of the beatsticks from thinking they could just slam into my force just because they have a pocket full of stones and a fairly strong hand. He was Misaki's shadow in one low stone game against Lilith. She threw her Mature into my ranks and had some amazing flips, but in the end drained most of her hand in the process *should have been the whole hand but again he had some AMAZING Flips*. Then Misaki proceeded to assault Lilith with all her swings and in the end Decapitate her as he did not have the cards nor enough stones by that point to stop it.

What I am thinking with the Dark Debts that if I am going to use Tannen it needs to be a higher soulstone game and I have to have some sort of secondary back up beat stick besides the HD. He needs something that can hang out behind advancing and making them worried about charging into. That way he can advance and not always have to rely on his pitiful. I also think he could make my Lynch trick to drain their hand and possible stones that much better. I have started to introduce the thought that Lynch is not a bad back up gunner to my group, and have started to let Cheating Bastard ability mess with some heads. With Tannen he can make it that more annoying.

But I honestly think that if you are taking Tannen you need a solid second beatstick, something more than Graves.

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While I am currently useing learning Dark debts crew, as I am getting more games in I am finding I am mainly using them more as a "Achivement then Denial" ie get objectives done first then deny the enemy. In games thet dont require combat if you can avoid it. Much like when i play Collodi or sometimes Dreamer. for pure beatstick i lean to masters and minons more suited. meby I just play different to the rest.

my thoughts thus far would be.

Jacob: for now kinda meh as a master, but thats personally due to absolute bad luck when I try and do something. DmH always I will flip at least two 8s or 1s the the other card is often useless or my opponant Draws a good card. I don't dislike him just have terrible luck with him. his speed is amazing almost as fast as Lilith if need be. I also keep forgetting he cheats last.. grr

Huggy, well he is awsome all round like my last game had two shikome thrown at him reduced him to 1 wound only to fully heal and attack them his activation. his melee trigger

I discovered last game how dangerous it is when it goes off and you red joker flip/ severe damage.

Beckoners all the pros have been stated already :)

Illuminated: I dont know where the hate comes from I love these guys, while not a yough Nephilim they have uses, I think they have to be viewed more as how they can be combined with others rather than individually. targets with brilliance helps also.

Depleated The pawns of the crew for me and very situational depending on the scenario decides how many I use. These guys have some serious speed up to 15' if done right. Last shared destroy evidence I did, I had a Imuminated full move up the middle then 3 depleated drawn to the light, double moved to be standing on the neutral and 2 of my objectives in first turn ready to claim next turn. They can take a bit of a beating for the points. but will fold if enemy is a beatstick costing 2 stones or more. for me a good model to complete something fast then feed it to the enemy or Huggy for health, use once and discard.

Graves and Tannen These I use when the need arises and more often with other masters where their strength are needed. IMHO there is no point using these guys for the sake of it or fluff. if the senario flipped and master chosen can benifit from these guys take them if not spend elswhere. when played to their strengths well like any model they rock.

As I said before I tend to play Jacob and his crew more as a mission grabbing misdirection crew, If I do get in combat besides Huggy its usally on the defensive. I can do an agressive crew but it would contain models not in the Dark Debts line.

I cant make a definitive list as it changes from scenario, enemy faction, master etc

but a foundation would be

Jacob + huggy

1-2 beckoners

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