Alviaran Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Burning Tokens cause a model to take 1 Wd or receive Slow, controller's choice. If a model cannot be made Slow (Unstoppable Industry for example), can a model choose "receive Slow" for the Burning Tokens, be immune and thus suffer no effects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Usiel Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Yep, absolutely. The burning token resolves as normal, but Slow can't be applied, so nothing happens, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Alviaran Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Sweet. Thanks for the timely response. About to take out Mei Feng a little bit tonight and the idea just came to me for some reason that this could happen (Rail Golem explosion anyone?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Omenbringer Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) I wouldn't be so sure about this one. A burning token causes the player to have to either take a Wound or recieve Slow during the Resolve Effects Step (page 22 of the 1.5 edition book). Though the owning player is usually able to choose which effect applies because Mei Feng can not be affected by Slow due to Unstoppable Industry it wont be a valid choice for her. I would guess that she would have to take the Wound every time. Edited January 31, 2013 by Omenbringer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ausplosions Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) I disagree completely with you Omen. It says she cant be affected by slow. Not that she can't gain it. She can be given the effect of slow but it will do nothing. EDIT: Hmmmmm On second thoughts it does say immune so im flip flopping and saying she cant choose slow... Edited January 31, 2013 by Ausplosions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Usiel Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hmm... I was going from a memory of a previous discussion on Shikome gaining burning tokens, but looking back, seems like this was the consensus at the time, not an official answer. I can see your argument, but I'm not sure I'm convinced. If it was an effect that didn't have a choice, she simply wouldn't receive the Slow portion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Omenbringer Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) As you point out Ausplosions the exact wording of Mei Feng's ability is Unstoppable Industry: This model is immune to Slow. Page 22 of the new 1.5 edition book states that A model immune to or able to ignore X cannot be affected or modified by X when resolving the effect. Though the Burning token is not itself an effect, it does generate one upon resolution. Slow is an effect since It is generated during an Encounter.It sits 'on' a model.It has an end time that can be defined. Mei Feng may only choose to take the Wound when resolving the Burning token since she is immune to the Slow effect (making it an invalid option). ---------- Post added at 12:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 AM ---------- If it was an effect that didn't have a choice, she simply wouldn't receive the Slow portion. The "either" wording in the resolution of Burning tokens means that one result has to be applied for removal. The choice must still be a valid option for the model. Edited January 31, 2013 by Omenbringer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kadeton Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hmm, isn't this the same as using Headshot on Hamelin, and having him choose the discard effect (which he's immune to)? I was sure that was an officially sanctioned option, and I can't see the mechanical difference between that and this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Omenbringer Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) The wording on Hamelin's The Void is very different than Mei Fengs Unstoppable Industry and expressly says that; This model's Controller may ignore any enemy effects targetting this model which requires them to discard Control Cards Hamelin's ability doesn't stop the effect from generating the Control Card Discard only it's resolution. Dont get me wrong I can see the argument however it is a very different interaction. Mei Feng can not be affected or in this case modified by Slow at all however the resolution/ removal of Burning tokens requires either a Wound or Slow to be applied to the model. Since she can't choose to be affected by Slow (due to the cannot wording in the Immune description) her only option is the wound for removal. Edited January 31, 2013 by Omenbringer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ausplosions Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Makes me wonder why she is the only master who must take a wound from them though. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mako Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I think the shikome can take the slow and ignore it, since the card says 'this model is never affected by slow or paralyse'. So you can receive it, it just has no effect and falls straight off. I'm fairly sure someone official weighed in on that, although the only one I could find is that a fast shikome being hit with slow didnt lose fast as slow had no effect. Not that it couldn't be hit with it, but that it didn't do anything when it did hit. My personal opinion is that immune means the same. You can catch a disease but not be affected and clear it out your system because you're immune. It doesn't actually stop you getting it, just means you don't notice it happening. But I'm hardly an authority on rules so I'll happily sit and watch this one work itself out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Evilbleachman Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 A model immune to or able to ignore X cannot be affected or modified by X when resolving the effect. This implies that the model cannot be effected or suffer an alteration due to an effect. Not that it cannot be targeted by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Omenbringer Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Makes me wonder why she is the only master who must take a wound from them though. .. If she wasn't meant to be affected by them then she would have had Ablaze instead or in addition to Unstoppable Industry. It is a bit odd but it is also a bit corner case. I think the shikome can take the slow and ignore it, since the card says 'this model is never affected by slow or paralyse'. So you can receive it, it just has no effect and falls straight off. I'm fairly sure someone official weighed in on that, although the only one I could find is that a fast shikome being hit with slow didnt lose fast as slow had no effect. Not that it couldn't be hit with it, but that it didn't do anything when it did hit. Once again the wording is the important part of the ability. Shikome can recieve the Slow effect/ Action modifier they just aren't affected by it because of Relentless. In this case effect is used as a noun (thing) where as Affect is a verb (action). But I'm hardly an authority on rules so I'll happily sit and watch this one work itself out. Definately in the same boat, a Rules Marshal will inevitably have to weigh in on the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mako Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 That's where it gets fun, because while we all seem to agree on the wording of the shikome's ability meaning it can choose slow but not actually suffer it, we don't on mei Feng's. To me, immune (from a bioscience point of view) means you don't suffer any effects, but you still actually get exposed. So it works the same as the shikome. But it all comes down to how the word immune is defined... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Evilbleachman Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Omen actually already quoted the definition the game uses. It clearly says the model cannot be effected by it. Not that it cannot receive or be targeted by it. I would say Mei can surely choose to either put out the fire and forgo suffering the wound by becoming slow. Since she is immune to becoming slow, she is such a badass that she can put out the fire as if it was nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mister Shine Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Where as I see it the opposite, they cannot receive the effect or opt to receive it. Shikome is so damned relentless it will chase you ON FIRE (taking a wound) and not even care Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Evilbleachman Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hmm. I guess this case could use some arbitration from good ol' Wyrd rule kings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Lord Shaper Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'm personally on the side of she can get the token but can't choose the Slow effect. As she is immune to Slow that shouldn't be an option for her to pick. Just like being immune to Blasts means the shot which causes it doesn't get placed over the figure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Evilbleachman Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'm personally on the side of she can get the token but can't choose the Slow effect. As she is immune to Slow that shouldn't be an option for her to pick. Just like being immune to Blasts means the shot which causes it doesn't get placed over the figure Why wouldn't you be able to put a blast marker on a model that is immune to it? How does the model's immunity prevent the explosion that could potentially hit other models? Now I am greatly confused. O_o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Lord Shaper Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Why wouldn't you be able to put a blast marker on a model that is immune to it? How does the model's immunity prevent the explosion that could potentially hit other models? Now I am greatly confused. O_o If you are immune to something you can't be targeted by it so there for you can't place it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ausplosions Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 What? That makes no sense shaper.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Evilbleachman Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 If you are immune to something you can't be targeted by it so there for you can't place it Omenbringer quoted this from the 1.5 book. A model immune to or able to ignore X cannot be affected or modified by X when resolving the effect. Not being able to be targeted would be silly. Immune just means you are not effected by whatever you are immune to. Immunity to blasts would not result in a blast marker not being able to be set. It means the blast marker is set and the model with immunity ignores the effects resulting from the blast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Alviaran Posted January 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 If you are immune to something you can't be targeted by it so there for you can't place it Having a blast marker placed over you is not targeting you as I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Lord Shaper Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) OK Blast damage is the damage generated by a blast marker, as I've said. The blast marker only generate damage on any model other than the original target under the template. The original target just take the normal damage from the attack. Or in other words the model take damage from the attack as normal. The attack also generates a blast marker. The blast marker causes 4 Dg to any model that is not the original model, this is the Blast Damage. So the Blast Marker can not be placed over the person that is immune since they can't be targeted by it. Also another example is Immune to Influence where Zoraida can't cast Obey on the Dead Rider because of the immunity. So since Mei Fang can not be targeted by slow so she can not choose the slow option of the counter. I hope that makes sence... Edited January 31, 2013 by Lord Shaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Evilbleachman Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 If you shoot Von Schill with a Crooked Man's Cave in Spell and hit, you deal the damage amount as shown on the respective severity of damage. Then you place a 50mm blast marker originating from the edge of Von Schill's base. Let us say one of his Freikorps models and a Desperate Mercenary would fall underneath the template(s). The Freikorps soldier does not receive any damage from the blast effect, because his special armor ignores it. The Desperate Mercenary receives damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ausplosions Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) Edit: shaper. Your knowledge of blast placement in relation to immunity to blasts is wrong. Edited January 31, 2013 by Ausplosions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Question
Alviaran
Burning Tokens cause a model to take 1 Wd or receive Slow, controller's choice.
If a model cannot be made Slow (Unstoppable Industry for example), can a model choose "receive Slow" for the Burning Tokens, be immune and thus suffer no effects?
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