"Fizzle Rule" + Levi = huh???

[Turbodog]

Ok, so I was recently told about a new "fizzle rule" and that it may prevent Levi from casting entropic transformation on an undead model if he already has two waifs out. Anyone care to explain this to me?

[easternheretic]

Hollow Waifs are rare 2. Entropic transformation summons a Hollow Waif if successfully cast and defender fails resist.

If 2 are already in play, you can't fulfill all criteria and hence it fails.

Cheers.

[Turbodog]

Dumb. Not you, Easternheretic. The Fizzle Rule itself.

Is this the "fizzle rule" from the FAQ/Errata?

"What happens when a model attempts something that it couldn’t do, like cast a Spell to create an additional Rare model when my Crew’s maximum number of that model are in play, or casts a borrowed Spell that requires a Weapon/Ability my model doesn’t have?

You cannot attempt the Action. If the Action would not work, reset back to before the Action began. If an event would require the model to enter play (such as a Pine Boxed third Viktoria coming into play when a Death Marshal is removed from play) the model does not enter play."

Now my opinion (which isn't worth much) is that the only requirements for Levi's spell are a Casting Cost and a target. We have both of those. The effects of the spell are varied based on conditions. The primary effect is that the model is sacrificed. If the model can't be sacrificed, then stop now. It's not a valid target for the spell, fizzle, I see that. Then there are two POSSIBLE effects due to the sacrifice. One possible effect is that a steampunk abomination COULD be summoned. Another effect is that a hollow waif COULD be summoned. There is a third unlisted effect that NOTHING is summoned (because its not living, undead, or a construct...spirits for example).

The logic that says I can't cast the spell because I can't summon another waif, would likewise say I can't ever cast the spell on any living or undead model because I can't get a steampunk abomination, AND I can't ever cast the spell on a construct because I can't get a waif!!! So...I can't ever cast the spell???

Just silly. I call "dumb" on this.

[Kadeton]

I think the fizzle thing is often far more broadly applied than is actually appropriate.

[Ausplosions]

I think the fizzle thing is often far more broadly applied than is actually appropriate.

How so?

Got examples?

It is an obvious and clear thing.

If the results if yhe spell require you do do something that cannot be done it fizzles. It's not that a complex concept.

---------- Post added at 01:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

I think the fizzle thing is often far more broadly applied than is actually appropriate.

How so?

Got examples?

It is an obvious and clear thing.

If the results if yhe spell require you do do something that cannot be done it fizzles. It's not that a complex concept.

---------- Post added at 01:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 PM ----------

The spell doesn't say may summon.

It says summon.

If you can't then the spell "fizzles".

[Kadeton]

Eh, stuff like people arguing that you can't Alpha the Ashes & Dust to kill itself because the Storm and Core placement can't happen. Dumb things, mostly, but I seem to recall it comes up a lot.

The "reset to before the action began" bit is the really stupid bit. Here's a better example: A Shikome, with Marcus as its Prey, attacks Marcus. Marcus gets his "Defend Me!" trigger and switches with a friendly Beast. The Shikome's action no longer works (it's not allowed to make an attack against its new target) - reset to before the action began. The Shikome attacks Marcus. If he gets his trigger, reset and try again...

In this particular case, it simply feels silly for Levi to be unable to cast one of his major spells only on living or undead targets because he's already got enough Waifs. It would be a major nerf to his power, if true (not necessarily a bad thing).

[Ausplosions]

Problem is, it is true.

You cannot summon something that has already filled the Rare #.

This spell in particular is a clear cut case.

Your Shikome example is not valid. Being able to attack something is not a "requirement". The Shikome does not "have" to do damage. Damage is a result of attacking successfully. If the target can escape, it is unsuccessful.

[Kadeton]

It's not that the target escapes, it's that "Defend Me!" says that the Beast becomes the target of the attack, and Single Minded says that the attack therefore cannot happen, and the whole attack fizzles according to the rule. The fizzle rule says nothing about "requirements", I have no idea where you're getting that from.

It may (and I suspect it should) be one of those non-fizzle situations where the AP used to attack is simply lost. The point is that non-fizzle situations exist despite the fizzle rule, and it would make more sense to me if Entropic Transformation were one of them.

I agree with you that the rules as they are support Levi being unable to cast the spell on certain targets, but that's the boring, functional part of the discussion. The interesting part is whether the rules should support that.

[Turbodog]

Okay, any reason that I can't companion activate Levi and one of his two waifs. Sac the waif on it's activation (by trying to cast one of levi's spells). Then activate Levi who can NOW use entropic transformation to make a new waif?

I assume the old waif just doesn't re-summon at end of closing phase in this case (cause that would be 3 waifs on the table...)

[Soundwave]

Okay, any reason that I can't companion activate Levi and one of his two waifs. Sac the waif on it's activation (by trying to cast one of levi's spells). Then activate Levi who can NOW use entropic transformation to make a new waif?

I assume the old waif just doesn't re-summon at end of closing phase in this case (cause that would be 3 waifs on the table...)

No reason, no.

[baskinders]

Dumb. Not you, Easternheretic. The Fizzle Rule itself.

Is this the "fizzle rule" from the FAQ/Errata?

"What happens when a model attempts something that it couldn’t do, like cast a Spell to create an additional Rare model when my Crew’s maximum number of that model are in play, or casts a borrowed Spell that requires a Weapon/Ability my model doesn’t have?

You cannot attempt the Action. If the Action would not work, reset back to before the Action began. If an event would require the model to enter play (such as a Pine Boxed third Viktoria coming into play when a Death Marshal is removed from play) the model does not enter play."

Now my opinion (which isn't worth much) is that the only requirements for Levi's spell are a Casting Cost and a target. We have both of those. The effects of the spell are varied based on conditions. The primary effect is that the model is sacrificed. If the model can't be sacrificed, then stop now. It's not a valid target for the spell, fizzle, I see that. Then there are two POSSIBLE effects due to the sacrifice. One possible effect is that a steampunk abomination COULD be summoned. Another effect is that a hollow waif COULD be summoned. There is a third unlisted effect that NOTHING is summoned (because its not living, undead, or a construct...spirits for example).

The logic that says I can't cast the spell because I can't summon another waif, would likewise say I can't ever cast the spell on any living or undead model because I can't get a steampunk abomination, AND I can't ever cast the spell on a construct because I can't get a waif!!! So...I can't ever cast the spell???

Just silly. I call "dumb" on this.

Problem is, it is true.

You cannot summon something that has already filled the Rare #.

This spell in particular is a clear cut case.

Yeah I disagree completely with you Ausplosions.

I would read that the Levi player is not "attempting to do something they can't" by casting that spell, rather they are attempting to sacrifice an enemy model. An additional effect of successfully sacrificing that enemy model is that you summon a Waif, which can't be done and therefore that effect fizzles.

This is in keeping with the Pine Box example given in the FAQ, as the Marshall has completed an action, of which the first effect was to bury the Vik. When they get to do the second effect of unburying, this can't be done and therefore that effect fizzles. You do not reset everything back to before the Death Marshall performed his Pine Box action.

It even clearly states in a separate sentence that "If an event would require the model to enter play (such as a Pine Boxed third Viktoria coming into play when a Death Marshal is removed from play) the model does not enter play". This is exactly one of those events and therefore Levi can cast the spell regardless of the number of Waifs already in play, it just means that if he successfully casts it no additional Waifs enter play.

Edited January 5, 2013 by baskinders

[Fading Memory]

It's not that the target escapes, it's that "Defend Me!" says that the Beast becomes the target of the attack, and Single Minded says that the attack therefore cannot happen, and the whole attack fizzles according to the rule. The fizzle rule says nothing about "requirements", I have no idea where you're getting that from.

It may (and I suspect it should) be one of those non-fizzle situations where the AP used to attack is simply lost.

This is similar to something like Lilith's Whirling Death while trying to target the Dreamer surrounded by Nightmares. If she fails to kill all the Nightmares before she attempts to strike the Dreamer, she can't target the Dreamer. Whirling Death only allows you to target a model once. She targets the Dreamer, Shadowy Form says you must target a Nightmare. That Nightmare has already been targeted by Whirling Death; so therefore, the strike against the Dreamer and his replacement target fail.

The Marcus/Shikome example is right along the same lines.

[ravenborne]

The Levi example seems pretty clear cut with the FAQ intention, which is that the spell cannot be cast/fails. This is the way I always play it, and it makes Levi more difficult to play.

However, as pointed out, there are workarounds.

[Kadeton]

I like baskinders' interpretation. That's the way that makes the most sense to me, I just failed to express it properly.

[Ausplosions]

Still not right though.

It summons a rare model. If the rare number is filled, then you cannot.

Un-pine boxing something may not happen due to cards/time/whatever.

The summon from Levis spell MUST happen. it doesnt say "may" summon a waif. It just says summon. There is no option/chance it wont come about...

Two completely different things.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Ausplosions

[baskinders]

In your opinion it's still not right.

I'm not disputing that you can not summon the waif, but you absolutely can do the action and complete any effect before that summon effect.

I remember your post about Mei Feng an triggering an attack off rail walker with no constructs in range as an example of a fizzle attack. This is because you cast the spell, the first effect is to move to a friendly construct, if there is none it fizzles with no triggered attack. Exactly the same as this situation, it's the order of effects that's important. An effect that fizzles stops all others after it, but not before. In my opinion, obviously not yours

[TheUnseemlyOne]

I have to agree with Ausplosions on this one. I'm pretty sure there's been a past ruling to the effect of the entire spell is completed or it fizzles. I'll see if I can find it and post a link.

Edit: Ok, couldn't find the exact one I was thinking of, but this one follows the same logic about whether you can complete partial actions.

Since this is a SINGLE action you can't perform half an action. You perform the whole action or not at all. Since you can't perform the replace you are unable to perform the action.

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?21723-Using-Alpha-amp-Override-Edict-to-sacrifice-enemy-models

Post #7

Edited January 6, 2013 by elusive87

[sssk]

The FAQ says:

"What happens when a model attempts something that it couldn’t do, like cast a Spell to create an additional Rare model when my Crew’s maximum number of that model are in play, or casts a borrowed Spell that requires a Weapon/Ability my model doesn’t have?

You cannot attempt the Action. If the Action would not work, reset back to before the Action began. If an event would require the model to enter play (such as a Pine Boxed third Viktoria coming into play when a Death Marshal is removed from play) the model does not enter play."

Does the Levi question not enter into the last sentence of the answer in the FAQ "If an event would require the model to enter play, the model does not enter play".

Admittedly there's no mention of "fizzling" there, so maybe I've got totally the wrong end of the stick.

[dgraz]

You cannot attempt the Action. If the Action would not work, reset back to before the Action began. If an event would require the model to enter play (such as a Pine Boxed third Viktoria coming into play when a Death Marshal is removed from play) the model does not enter play."

The last sentence is talking about a specific action that would either summon or place a new model. But the clarification talks about an action as a whole......if one part of the action can't be done, then none of it can.

I know it would be nice to have it be - the spell works up until the part it doesn't - but that isn't how Wyrd has ruled it.

[baskinders]

Except that it specifically uses an example of an action that has, as part of it, "an event would require a model to enter play...", then that event does not happen. The death Marshall is only half completing his action. How is the Levi example any different?

[dgraz]

Except that it specifically uses an example of an action that has, as part of it, "an event would require a model to enter play...", then that event does not happen. The death Marshall is only half completing his action. How is the Levi example any different?

Not even close. The Death Marshal's action is to bury the model. Unburying the model is not a part of the action - it explains how the model becomes unburied later, but the action is complete as soon as the model is buried.

[baskinders]

Not even close. The Death Marshal's action is to bury the model. Unburying the model is not a part of the action - it explains how the model becomes unburied later, but the action is complete as soon as the model is buried.

Right, now I'm really confused? At what point does the text in an action not become part of the action? And how do you tell the difference? Who's to say that Levi's action is to sacrifice the model and that the summon bit just explains how to remove that sacrificed model? That doesn't really make sense to me...

[dgraz]

The Levi thing happens right now. The Pine Box unbury doesn't happen until other models have acted or the end of the turn. What? the Pine Box action is just put on hold until the DM dies or the target wins the duel........I don't think so.

I'm pretty sure I could find some other spells that describe how they work in the text.

[baskinders]

So the way I've always thought about it is that an Action is something you declare you're doing and the things that happen because of the action are the effects. So applying that to what you're saying is that if a model can not complete all "immediate" effects of an action it can not perform that action, however if an action with "delayed" effects results in a situation where the delayed effect can not occur, cancel the delayed effect only, not the entire action.

Fair enough, if they had have written that I would have got it

Still a fairly poor rule I think, and throws up a few strange situations ie Lucas McCabe can never shoot at a Shikome with his net gun as the Shikome is never effected by Slow or Paralyse and the net gun always inflicts damage+either slow or paralyse...

[sssk]

I'm pretty sure the topic at hand is unique to the fizzle rule to do with spells, so McCabe shooting stuff shouldn't be affected (unless his gun is a "spell"?).

On that subject, can anyone who knows where the "fizzle" rule is, find/quote it, so the rest of us can see what's actually going on (because I can't find it anywhere).

Cheers

[Fetid Strumpet]

Actually, McCabe can still shoot the Shikome. The Shikome's special rule is:

Relentless: This model's Wk/Cg cannot be reduced by a talent or Spell effects. This model is never affected by Slow or Paralyze.

So basically what happens is McCabe shoots the Shikome, hits and does dmg, applies the Effect, Slow to the Shikome, who then promptly ignores it and, in my Green-Tinted world, then promptly tears McCabe apart.

The Rule doesn't say she can't gain the effect, she just isn't affected by it.