Fetid Strumpet Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 McMorning does have Hard to Wound however, which is vasty superior to Hard to Wound 2, for reasons which have been discussed to death. Whether you beleive this or not is up to your own experiences and observations. The observation of Seamus effectively being CB 7 vs McMorning's CB 6 is accurate, but you are forgetting that Seamus's ability is a spell, which requires he cheat first, often requiring higher expenditure of resources than Mcmorning will need to do. Also you are forgetting McMorning is also CB 7 effectively, as he is going to use Dissection in combat, which is one of the more deadly spells in the game, and also, as a melee attack, also heals McMorning in CB. You are right that he doesn't need to be one of the best killers in the game, but his mechanics as presented right now don't really make him any kind of killer or surviver, unless you specify some kind of very specific circumstances. You'll note that I said a major factor not the only factor of his ability to be competitive is being able to use live for pain in CB. The other Factors still apply. I will also state that from my observations over the years on this topic that those who think Seamus is just fine often fall back onto the argument that we are just advocating for a change that better fits our playstyle, and that if we just understood the "true" way to play Seamus we would think he is just fine. I don't agree, he just doesn't have the abilities or tightly bound rules to make him any kind of a master to use in a competitive environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 The counter to saying Live for Pain would be too powerful is to say you need a 7 minimum for it to work plus you need to cheat first whereas using Seamus' normal melee attack only has the limit of beating the defenders total, and you may not have to cheat first, plus its trigger is very good. If you still think this is too good raise the CC to say a 17 so a 10 is needed and therefore you need to be a little more careful with casting it. (added to previous post part way up the page) McMourning's attack is also giving him body parts which is getting him that much closer to dropping another Flesh Construct on their head, so he is not only healing, but gathering summoning requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriltic Posted November 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 I agree McMourning is good and I don't personally think Live for Pain would be OP if you were able to cast it 3 times a turn however if others disagree I would be happy to have the CC raised if people think this would be more balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Round 1 of tournament Saturday my Seamus with NO avatar was facing Lilith. I sat there thinking, "If only I had not been in that thread that talked me into trying him without his avatar..." . And you knew that going in. It is always nice to have our opinions validated. We both know there is lots off theory on these forums but a lot less people with the experience. I figure I have over 100 games in now with ressers, and I only now feel half qualified to discuss them intelligently. So far I would say never play him in a tournament without his Avatar unless you are a super genius or can absolutely be sure of your opponent's crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustcrusher Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 I will also state that from my observations over the years on this topic that those who think Seamus is just fine often fall back onto the argument that we are just advocating for a change that better fits our playstyle, and that if we just understood the "true" way to play Seamus we would think he is just fine. I don't agree, he just doesn't have the abilities or tightly bound rules to make him any kind of a master to use in a competitive environment. I've seen players demonstrate how to effectively run almost every other master, or at least confirm some of the possibilities I've seen (or reveal many I haven't). All I see with Seamus is an odd mix of movement boosting, board control, and healing when killing other models. I think there are possibilities when playing more passive strategies that require movement, but Kirai does this better overall, and other Resser masters can make use of the Belles while trading the +2 Wk boost for other abilities that more than compensate for it. I have yet to figure out an effective way to make Seamus work, and until I do, he will continue to be one of my go-to Masters for handicapping myself against brand new players. So since I'm not smart enough to figure out how to play him right :-/, I eagerly await a deluge of helpful hints for this fellow: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?37193-Making-Seamus-Work-Beginner-Help-Thread&p=475442#post475442. Bonus points if you can avoid a Calmdown style (yes, I'm going to mention him by name) anti-Resser method involving Von Schill and another Merc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriltic Posted November 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 McMourning's attack is also giving him body parts which is getting him that much closer to dropping another Flesh Construct on their head, so he is not only healing, but gathering summoning requirements. One thing I was going to say is we don't want Seamus and McMourning having too many similarities (i.e the ability to heal quickly, especially considering he will probably take less damage per hit). I think the few minor changes help him just enough to be a better master who is not mostly a friendly gaming kinda guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) And you knew that going in. It is always nice to have our opinions validated. We both know there is lots off theory on these forums but a lot less people with the experience. I figure I have over 100 games in now with ressers, and I only now feel half qualified to discuss them intelligently. So far I would say never play him in a tournament without his Avatar unless you are a super genius or can absolutely be sure of your opponent's crew. To be fair, I made a mistake in getting tunnel-visioned on getting my Grudge scheme and tore down the very defense that I had put up to discourage just such a charge from Lilith. A few weeks prior I played with Nicodem against Lilith played by the person that actually won this past Saturday's tournament and in a sad preview of things to come, I left a charge lane open to Nicodem through a bunch of boxes and had managed to leave barely enough of a gap for Lilith to fit right next to Nico. Nicodem is our "fragile" master and what wound up happening is that she was paralyzed for 2 out of 3 turns, I believe and I came within a hair of killing her and winning the game. I think a final duel that would have sealed the deal my way I lost 28-26 or so and combined with a Lelitu that was giving me headaches Lilith won the game for him... The details are fuzzy to me now and I wrote it up elsewhere. I am also sure that Korrosion would love to re-detail that game. But my point was just that in making a similar mistake against Lilith with Nicodem, it was quite a different sequence of events for how "inevitable" it was that she would wreck face. All that having been said, it is not Seamus' fault that I brain-cramped and let Lilith get near him. But he sure does not give you any margin for error. Seamus and I tied in round 2 against Hoff-ball and all its I2I. And then we won last round against Viks in a very close game. Edited November 21, 2012 by Gruesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 Surely having Lilith charge is not that much of a big deal? Her :+fate on damage counters Hard To Wound 2, so she will usually end up on a flip which is what you want. With Trail of Fear and The Face of Death up she needs a 10+ to beat his Terrifying (probably either cheating high or burning a stone) and she's very unlikely to kill him in a round. I'd spend the rest of his AP on Undead Psychosis (pretty good chance to get this off with Ca 7 vs Wp 4) and if you manage it, she's basically neutered for a turn. If all else fails, just pull him out with a Belle and then block the charge lane. Anyway, that's obviously all theorycraft (though I've had the exact same situation with Lady J and dealt with it very successfully using the above method) and there are situational factors, but in general, I've found Seamus is more than capable of dealing with Living, non-Terrifying opponents, especially scary melee ones. It's all the stuff that doesn't fall into that category that's the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) I could not get the Undead Psychosis off. I was losing in the SS war and could not find a lane to lure him to that she could not recharge him into. So, I tried to use what few activations I had left to contest objectives. Had a 4 point swing on him getting breakthrough and me losing holdout when rather than just walking a tot into my deployment zone, he successfully cast that walk-spell and top-flipped a mask that was also high enough to cast, so he got a double-walk, then walked with his other AP and positioned himself where my "defensive belle" had to use 1 AP to reposition herself to target him with lure. because of the new angle and only 1 lure casting, his move only got him to where he still had about 20% of his base in my deployment zone. So, he got breakthrough... But, funny enough, as I now reread holdout, he was not COMPLETELY within my deployment, so I should have gotten my announced Holdout. (Did not notice that it was "completely" on Saturday) One thing I definitely re-discovered for myself though is that aSeamus at a tourney and I are not exactly a good match. He is not on the board much, if at all. I am a slow player that likes whiskey in my coffee when I play at a tournament. This does not help my speed. Edited November 22, 2012 by Gruesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 I could not get the Undead Psychosis off. I was losing in the SS war and could not find a lane to lure him to that she could not recharge him into. So, I tried to use what few activations I had left to contest objectives. Yeah, I figured it would be circumstances that prevented you from dealing with Lilith. Seamus has to be pretty focused to get anything done to another Master, and if you need those actions for other stuff... I am a slow player that likes whiskey in my coffee when I play at a tournament. This does not help my speed. It probably makes your Seamus impression more authentic, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korrosion Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 I am a slow player that likes coffee in my whiskey when I play at a tournament. This does not help my speed. Fixed it for you. The nico vs lilith thread was really about rafkin i think. http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?35074-Thinking-about-Rafkin-some-more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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