How to make our Masters more competitive/balanced?

[Omenbringer]

You don't think summoning is a significant part of Nico's fluff and original design? I see his buffing and healing of undead to be the crutch that people rely on to make him viable because he doesn't live up to his summoner fluff.

I definately dont see Nicodem as the "super summoner" that a lot of players tend to see him as. He is all about the Zombie Horde (which he is amazing at building, only Rafkin has close to that kind of potential) and buffing them (both via Bolster Undead (improving Stats) and The Fog preventing ranged strikes and blocking LOS for other abilities)), the "specific model" summoning is a secondary thing for him (he isn't that bad at it but like virtually all summoning masters it isn't to be relied upon).

For balance reasons, almost all summoners have to be heavily limited due to the dramatic shift recycling low SS model either back into the game or in to more expensive ones can cause.

I would argue that the best summoner in the game isn't actually viewed as a summoner by a lot of the community.

[Kadeton]

I definately dont see Nicodem as the "super summoner" that a lot of players tend to see him as. He is all about the Zombie Horde (which he is amazing at building, only Rafkin has close to that kind of potential) and buffing them (both via Bolster Undead (improving Stats) and The Fog preventing ranged strikes and blocking LOS for other abilities)), the "specific model" summoning is a secondary thing for him (he isn't that bad at it but like virtually all summoning masters it isn't to be relied upon).

I think most players don't so much see him as a "super summoner" but rather expect him to be one. Sadly, the zombie horde isn't terribly effective unless your opponent has no graverobbers or other ways to remove corpse counters (Von Schill - the most commonly played model in Malifaux - can destroy the entire horde with a single action). It's a very cool and thematic image, though, and it would be nice to see it become more viable.

For balance reasons, almost all summoners have to be heavily limited due to the dramatic shift recycling low SS model either back into the game or in to more expensive ones can cause.

Yeah, that's very true. I'd like to see summoning made easier for cheaper models, and keep expensive summons rare and difficult.

I would argue that the best summoner in the game isn't actually viewed as a summoner by a lot of the community.

There's a heck of a lot of summoning in the game once you start looking for it. As far as the best summoners, though, it would probably come down to Kirai, Ramos and Som'er as the current leaders - I'd say Ramos, personally, simply because his summons are consistent, useful, and he can provide his own materials if necessary. Who was your pick?

[Omenbringer]

My pick is Hamelin.

He can summon a Stolen for the expenditure of an AP with zero percent chance of failure and without a material requirement (corpse or scrap counter), Rats again without fail or material requirement (and this time without extra AP expenditure), and the Rat Cathchers without fail and only the requirement of Sacrificing three Rats. Add in the "self replacing" rats, Stolen and Obedient Wench and it pushes him even more into "elite" summoner status. Over the course of a game he can generate an insane ammount of free models. The worst part is that when he is doing his thing he is also preventing other summoners from doing theirs by denying material components.

I would also argue that Som'er himself isn't that great at summoning. Here are my reasons;

1. It is far from consistent, requiring a pretty high card or trigger to pull off.
   
2. It is very, very limited in what it can summon.
   
3. Has a unique material component that doesn't exist outside of what he hires and/ or has available.
   
4. Results in an overall weakening of not just the material compnent (Bayou Gremlin) but also the newly summoned model. Neither of which are overly durable to begin with.

The "summon factory" is a losing propositions (for any master) on its own in most circumstances.

I would agree though that Ramos is probably the best at it (after Masters/crews like Hamelin and Leveticus). Not so sure about Kirai as it weakens her substantially (even without spamming of the ability), is fairly limited (granted to a handful of models that are pretty useful with her anyway) and isn't that easy either.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Kadeton]

I did consider Hamelin, but I tend to think of his rats and Stolen as consumable resources rather than actual summoned models - you're right though, he's a very reliable summoner in a certain sense (it could be argued that his rats are only on par with Kirai's Seishin or Nico's zombies, though, which are also essentially automatic and rely on things dying nearby). Saying that Kirai's selection of summons is limited seems a bit facetious when Hamelin can only summon rats and Stolen.

I'd included Levi in my list initially as well, but his summoning is extremely limited (just SPAs and a single Waif) and is pretty clearly a secondary approach given his ability to just straight-up kill anything in his way. (If it turns into an SPA in the process, bonus!)

I do agree that the "summon factory" is a mechanic that is currently kept well in check, mainly because it doesn't often help in achieving VPs.

(Man, we are so off topic now.)

[Omenbringer]

I would say Nico pays a higher price for his zombies since the zero action that raises them competes with the buffing potential for the turn (at least until he manifests into the Avatar).

Kirai is a good summoner however does have to pay for all of those summons with Wounds (diminshing her ability to really Spam it) and to keep the Seishin around.

In regards to Levi's summoning ability (yes we are definately Off Topic here) the strength of it is that it doesn't distract at all from what his crew is already doing (hacking stuff up) and the entire crew can contribute to it (via the triggers). Additionally, he can summon himself after death without fail as long as a Hollow Waif is around which is a pretty neat trick (and shared with only two other Masters, Hamelin and The Viktorias).

[Adran]

Right, but the people who wanted to play him as a summoner don't play him any more, because he's pretty bad at it. If you're asking a self-selected group of people whether they want to change the thing they specifically selected, they're always going to say no... but that ignores all the people who would be in favour of a change.

I also object to the idea that there can only be one way to play a master - I think Yan Lo is the best example of this emphatically not being the case. If Nico gained a boost to his summoning abilities, but could heal and buff undead in exactly the same way as before (such that your current playstyle was perfectly preserved), why would the "actual" Nico players object? Does opening up an alternative playstyle somehow invalidate the existing one?

Every single request here is a wishlist, and there is no "one true understanding" of any particular master which must be adhered to. Seeing Nico as a summoner is not some wacky off-the-wall interpretation - in fact, in my experience it's the most common initial impression of the majority of players. It's only once they play a few games and realise his summoning is unfeasible that they come to an understanding that, in his current form, his strength is as a support caster, with the occasional summon if possible. That doesn't make their interpretation wrong, it just makes it badly supported by the rules. There are no "right improvements" in an objective sense, the only question is whether a given improvement does or does not support a particular playstyle.

The only problem I have with this is that it is going beyond the already questionable original intent of the thread.

When you start of by asking how to make models more competative you are looking for boosts. Which the game as a whole might not actually need. (but its easy for people to wish the models they used were better)

When you then pick a master and say it needs a boost because it can't do this you are well outside the thread suggestions.

If the model can be played in a way that is competative, then making it do something it can't do is not making it more balenced or competative, it is making it less balenced.

I'm not saying your point is wrong, but I persoanlly don't think Nicodem whats to be able to summon any better than he already can. If you made his ease of summoning less you would have to reduce either his list of targets, or increase its cost is some other way.

Free models is a good thing and everyone likes getting free models (as I think can be seen from the number of suggestions on these boards to buy some models to kill themn to make better models for cheaper costs). Except sometimes its a pain for the opponent who has to kill these free models over and over and over again and has no option of getting their own free models.

Its not that hard for Nicodem to summon if that is what you want to do. You just need cheap corpse counters and a high cache to allow the use of low crows to also cast. Since his summoning also gives him cards it makes future summoning even more likely.

What is hard is for him to summon good things every turn. And I think that is a good thing.

Would lady Justice win more games if she could summon death marshalls? Yes.

Would giving her an abilty to summon death marshalls make her more balenced? Probably not

[Kadeton]

Hmm... I think there's a big difference between suggesting that a Master be able to do something they currently can't do at all (like Justice summoning Death Marshals) and suggesting that their ability to do something which they already do (badly) be improved (Nico summoning undead). To be honest, I'm genuinely puzzled at the resistance to the idea of Nico becoming more of a summoner, but everyone has their own tastes and I can understand some people wanting to keep him the way he is - whether it's from a fear of him becoming overpowered, a preference for a different style of play, a desire for him to remain woefully underplayed and therefore special or hardcore, or whatever other reasons.

I'm certainly not advocating that Nico should be able to just spam out powerful undead all the time - I specifically argued against simply removing one of the crows in the CC of Reanimator because I felt it would make him too powerful. Mainly what I'd like to see is a tradeoff between reliable summoning and his existing buffing abilities - something he can use to be fairly sure that a summon goes off at a critical moment even if he doesn't have a high crow in hand, but which requires that he give up something else for that turn. Alternatively, I really like the suggestion of changing Mortimer to provide a summoning-support role as a different way to build the crew (especially since Mort is so rarely used).

[rancor709]

The biggest barrier to summoning is rarely the crow its the availability of corpse counter's you dont bring with u. More often i have the crow but no raw material to upgrade.

[Dustcrusher]

Douggie Mac is fine as is- at most he might need one more model he can summon at some point. Kirai- 'nuff said. Yan Lo, I suspect, will be replacing Nicodem in some players' mini cases once he's released.

I got into Nicodem because he seemed cool and his box wasn't $45. I figured he'd be a summoning beast with a swarm of weak minions. 2010 me was apparently looking for Hamelin, not Nicodem.

Getting back to Seamus for a moment, I'm with those who say 4 stone cache, remove the from Live for Pain, and make Necrotic Ministrations work on anything that dies.

As far as Nico goes, I like the idea of Mortimer adding a :crows to a Master's Ca for an action. Perhaps allow Nico to trade up to 2 Soulstones for Corpse Counters might not be bad either (or perhaps only allow this if you take Mortimer- representing bodies he's already dug up prior to the game's beginning). Those two changes would give Nico players the option to lean more towards summoning or towards buff/paralyze.

So, let's hear it. Why would letting Nico trade one or two stones for corpses be horribly broken? Come on, I know you're dying to tell me it's the worst idea so far in this topic...

[Q'iq'el]

The biggest barrier to summoning is rarely the crow its the availability of corpse counter's you dont bring with u. More often i have the crow but no raw material to upgrade.

That isn't my experience at all. Granted, I'm in very comfortable situation in that I don't face non-living crews very often (and when I do, they are constructs, so mostly in mixed crews). Nevertheless, because of the limited :crows availability, and due to the fact we want to keep high :crows for other spells as well, I hardly ever summon for other purposes than replenishing my own ranks and my own minions drop Corpse Counters always.

Let's say that out of 2-3 summons I get in a single game, typically 1 is to increase the crew size and getting 1-3 Corpse Counters for that isn't that big of a problem. Summoning Rogue Necromancy can be challenging and requires prior planning against some crews, but that's about it. I go with Flesh Constructs, if I can't do it.

Clearly both Corpse Counters and high :crows limit the ability, but of the two Corpse Counters can be obtained much more reliably, even when facing non-living opponents.

---------- Post added at 09:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 AM ----------

I'd also like to point out that originally McMourning was a far better summoner than Nicodem. Sure, he was limited to Flesh Constructs, but he could keep churning them out thorough the game. Obviously the game evolved into a bit different kind of play for McMourning, but with Nicodem the summoning ability has always been a misconception.

I think Avatar doesn't get to summon all these models to further reinforce the point - he's about working with a horde of cheap undead and buffing them to a much higher standard, not about summoning.

[Gruesome]

If I am not very careful in who I bring with for Nicodem's crew, I am very :crows starved, greatly hampering his summoning.

[Q'iq'el]

If I am not very careful in who I bring with for Nicodem's crew, I am very :crows starved, greatly hampering his summoning.

And shouldn't it stay that way? I mean, sure, he could use some help in areas which are very important for achieving success in Malifaux, which might have not been so obvious back when he had been designed (mobility, survivability of the master himself etc.).

But there's also the other side to the story:

- It still is a Skirmish game played chiefly at 30-35SS. Being able to bring an extra model, any extra model, is an incredibly powerful ability. Even though powerful and expensive models can often one-shot such summons, they spend entire turn on that, and there are only 6 turns. Even the weakest minions have potential to survive such attacks, if there are not enough resources spent to guarantee success. Anyone who summons regular minions (obviously not speaking here about the Rats and such) must be severely limited in that capacity. That can't change.

- Nicodem is a very rare breed of a master who not only is support, but who performs worse than his minions. Malifaux is so master-centric, people often don't get that about him. His buffs are powerful enough to turn a regular 5SS model (Punk Zombie) into Lilith-killer or make Bête Noire dispatch some of the toughest masters in one go. Few other crews can rely on regular minions to do this kind of things.

Not only do I think such a niche master should stay in the game, but I also think he performs much better once you get your head around his underlying design principle. That may still not make him competitive enough to be truly tournament viable - this is something to discuss. Changing who he is not necessary, because it still is a very unique position giving access to strategies which will perplex the opponent.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Omenbringer]

Getting back to Seamus for a moment, I'm with those who say 4 stone cache, remove the from Live for Pain, and make Necrotic Ministrations work on anything that dies.

Something that really needs to be considered with the suggestion of removing the:ranged icon from Live for Pain is that this will give Seamus one of the best Healing mechanics in the game and dramatically increase his durability. It isn't difficult for him to cast it high enough that Average Df can't beat it (11+ of anything) except with the Red Joker or by using SS. Being able to spam it up to three times while in melee means that he can not just reset his Hard to Kill ability but also potentially completely heal himself while also reducing his opponent in a single activation. Why use a SS for Healing when it can be used to increase the success of Live for Pain and provide the same or better healing and reduce your opponents Wd's at the same time. This is way to much durability for any model.

I would rather see his cache adjusted (though I am not a fan of that either) rather than anything done to Live for Pain.

As far as Nico goes, I like the idea of Mortimer adding a :crows to a Master's Ca for an action. Perhaps allow Nico to trade up to 2 Soulstones for Corpse Counters might not be bad either (or perhaps only allow this if you take Mortimer- representing bodies he's already dug up prior to the game's beginning). Those two changes would give Nico players the option to lean more towards summoning or towards buff/paralyze.

So, let's hear it. Why would letting Nico trade one or two stones for corpses be horribly broken? Come on, I know you're dying to tell me it's the worst idea so far in this topic...

It's a bad idea because it means any game against Nicodem will be at a significant disparity (more so than it already can be). That two SS for two Corpse Counters nets the crew a savings of up to eight SS for hiring (if he summons 2 Punk Zombies with them and doesn't have to use a SS to add to the casting flip). With Mortimer pumping out more "free" corpse counters throughout the game the disparity can quickly become unmangeable. This will also increase the potentcy of his Bolster Undead action due to the increased numbers of models that will be benefitting.

Add in the other recommendation up there and you turn Nicodem into the best Summoner in the game. Having Mortimer add the second :crows increases the opprotunities for success in the deck by approximately 28% before any SS use (with the second crow there are 6 cards in the deck that can succeed on their own (9-13 :crows + the Red Joker) or about 11% of the deck, without it there are 21 (9-13 of each suit + the Red Joker) or about 38% of the deck).

Nicodem is intended to roll with the Zombie Horde not an army of elite undead executioners.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Why should it matter if Seamus has the best healing in the game? Making him very hard to take out hardly unbalances the game. Zoraida would still be a model that is more difficult to remove from the game because she can move faster, has WP 10 and has proper manners, should we remove some of those because they are so good, because she won't have to spend her stones on Df flips because proper manners prevents her opponent from cheating their attack flips?

McMorning has an insanely powerful heal mechanic as he heals a point for every dmg he does in Melee, should we change that based on the arguments for why Seamus shouldn't be able to heal more effectively with live for pain?

I will say however that I am coming slowly around to wishing to not remove the gun icon, but instead giving him Gunfighter: Live for Pain, or adding a sentence at the end of Live for Pain which allows the spell to be used in melee, as I think it fits Seamus' M.O. better to have to potentially worry about cover when using the spell. Regardless I think that not being able to use Live for Pain in Melee is a major factor in why Seamus is not by any stretch of the imagination a competitive master.

[rancor709]

Live for pain needs to work in melee. Plain and simple it makes him much more viable without his avatar it has a short range and makes him the tank that seamus should be with h2w2 and hrd to kill. :it brings him to a solid place

[Gruesome]

And shouldn't it stay that way? I mean, sure, he could use some help in areas which are very important for achieving success in Malifaux, which might have not been so obvious back when he had been designed (mobility, survivability of the master himself etc.).

I never said otherwise. I was replying to rancor mentioning that he has seldom been short of :crows.

I was simply saying that the only way I have sufficient crows is to ensure I take no other models that rely on high crows, reducing my choice.

I am still a fan though of giving Mortimer the ability to help in that regard.

---------- Post added at 08:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 AM ----------

It's a bad idea because it means any game against Nicodem will be at a significant disparity (more so than it already can be). That two SS for two Corpse Counters nets the crew a savings of up to eight SS for hiring (if he summons 2 Punk Zombies with them and doesn't have to use a SS to add to the casting flip). With Mortimer pumping out more "free" corpse counters throughout the game the disparity can quickly become unmangeable. This will also increase the potentcy of his Bolster Undead action due to the increased numbers of models that will be benefitting.

Add in the other recommendation up there and you turn Nicodem into the best Summoner in the game. Having Mortimer add the second increases the opprotunities for success in the deck by approximately 28% before any SS use (with the second crow there are 6 cards in the deck that can succeed on their own (9-13 + the Red Joker) or about 11% of the deck, without it there are 21 (9-13 of each suit + the Red Joker) or about 38% of the deck).

Nicodem is intended to roll with the Zombie Horde not an army of elite undead executioners.

Mortimer costs 7 soulstones. In effect, you are "paying" 7SS for your extra crow. How much does the effigy cost that Arcanists or Neverborn can use?

---------- Post added at 08:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 AM ----------

Something that really needs to be considered with the suggestion of removing the:ranged icon from Live for Pain is that this will give Seamus one of the best Healing mechanics in the game and dramatically increase his durability.

Yes... Exactly. I mean, aside from McMourning who also has a SS Cache that is 4 stones larger and whose healing is from an attack, rather than a spell so therefore can be cheated after the fact, rather than have its total created up front allowing for someone to cheat it away unless you blow so many resources as to make it unlikely...

[CRC]

Rather than giving Seamus the ability to use Live for Pain in melee, I'd rather get rid of the spell entirely, make Necrotic Ministrations work on everything, and buff his melee to LFP levels.

Mostly I say that because LFP doesn't fit into my mental model of Seamus. I don't feel like he should be firing bolts of magical energy at his foes. I'm sure someone will try to give me a more fluffy description of the power, but really we don't have one, because he never does anything like it in the stories.

On the other hand, he kills a lot of people with that knife of his...

[Dustcrusher]

I will say however that I am coming slowly around to wishing to not remove the gun icon, but instead giving him Gunfighter: Live for Pain, or adding a sentence at the end of Live for Pain which allows the spell to be used in melee, as I think it fits Seamus' M.O. better to have to potentially worry about cover when using the spell. Regardless I think that not being able to use Live for Pain in Melee is a major factor in why Seamus is not by any stretch of the imagination a competitive master.

This will allow cover to be useful and let Seamus use it in melee. I like it.

Still, if the ability to spam it is that much of a worry, perhaps one of the following:

• Limit casting to once per model- would letting a totem cast it as well be too much? I really don't know since I rarely use totems with Seamus.
  
• Limit casting to once per crew per turn.
  
• Add a "on Severe damage, end this model's activation" clause to it. This could be in addition to the once per crew/model restriction options mentioned above.
  

Back to Nico now...

With respect to a free :crows for Nicodem from Mortimer, here are a couple of ideas to tone it down but keep it useful:

• Add a line that says "Models summoned using this bonus must have a cost of 4 stones or less."
  
• Add a line that says "Increase the casting cost of any spell using this bonus to summon a model by +x for the duration of the cast". +2 in the case means 13 usable cards versus 6 (24%) while +3 would mean 9 usable cards vs. 6 (16.67%).
  

As for the trade stones for Corpse Counters, would allowing Mortimer a single trade of two stones for one Corpse Counter still be too much?

Edited November 21, 2012 by Dustcrusher
code fix

[Kriltic]

If people are worried about Live for Pain been too powerful just up the casting value so its not as easy to get off (yes harder to resist too but so are many things) and/or limit it to once per turn?. Just to point out, why would you pay 2 SS for a single Corpse Counter when I could just buy a Canine Remain to run forward and die? It's more likely to do something useful before being killed and its another activation.

I still think rather than trying to justify Mortimer in a list by making him alter Nicodems potential game style, simply tweaking Nicodem would be easier so he has the option to simply have more than one play style. Why not up Reanimator to an 18 of any suit? Suddenly hes on par with Kirai's ability to summon but needs corpses close by instead. If he wants to try a summon factory he can do but it becomes very resource intensive (I.e. you need both Rafkin and Mortimer plus 2-3 turns to create enough Zombies/corpses to Reanimate). Plus this wouldn't alter his current play style much unless you built a crew to do so.

---------- Post added at 06:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------

What about these changes then? Are they simple but effective enough to make most people happy?

Kirai

None

McMourning

None

Nicodem

Remove second crow from Reanimator and up CC to 18

Increase SS Cache to 5

Seamus

Increase SS Cache to 4

Alter Trail of Fears to effect all models

Remove the gun icon from Live for Pain, up CC to 17

Edited November 21, 2012 by Kriltic

[Dustcrusher]

Time. Having the corpse counter in hand might be a lot more expedient in certain circumstances. Look at McMourning- sometimes it might be easier to have a Body Part or two on hand than an additional stone. Depends on play style and whether or not there's a time (not turn) limit on the game.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don't agree with the arguments that Live for Pain being able to be cast in melee would make Seamus too powerful. If so then why aren't there calls for McMorning to be cuddled as his healing is even more powerful, and he can make up many more melee attacks, counting his melee spells and getting the trigger for Scalpel Magic off, and using Scalpel Slinging.

I also would be against changing trail of fear to affect all models. That cheapens the Gorgon's Miasma on his avatar, in addition it doesn't make thematic sense to me. I could see the argument in having it aways active without having to take an action however.

Also again models which could give ressers crows to their stats is something that is desperately needed. When I play NB I very rarely ever need masks or any other suit to do the things I want to do. They just get more effective if I get the suit I want. Crow reliance is something that is very hard to get over if you use certain ressers for any length of time. Again though it's just my opinion.

[Kriltic]

It doesn't make a huge amount of sense but it help strengthens his crew a bit more while making the action a little more viable. Plus anything that stops an avatar been an auto-include is always a good thing. To me an avatar should be something that you think about and only add it if it seems like it'll be useful, not add it because it makes your master better.

Good comparison between the Doctor and Live for Pain, thinking about it I totally agree and so Im in favour for not having it limited to once per turn. If that makes Live for Pain broken then McMourning must be an OP master.

I dont think giving Resurrectionists easy ways out of Crow dependency by adding someone who can dish them out is a good idea. Can you imagine getting things like the Crooked men's Paralyzed trigger off automatically each turn is balanced? I think reducing a masters dependency on Crows to some extent frees them up a bit for the minions. Another reason I keep mentioning the whole dropping a crow for Nicodem thing. Personally I would say drop the crow for McMourning and Seamus as well but I think its justified for them two and summoning.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Kriltic

[Omenbringer]

Why should it matter if Seamus has the best healing in the game? Making him very hard to take out hardly unbalances the game. Zoraida would still be a model that is more difficult to remove from the game because she can move faster, has WP 10 and has proper manners, should we remove some of those because they are so good, because she won't have to spend her stones on Df flips because proper manners prevents her opponent from cheating their attack flips?

Off topic but Zoraida needs some toning back, the combination of abilities she has access to makes her very difficult to pin down (as you point out). It would be a simple enough thing to add a line to Raven that states it must be the first action she does in the activation (much like Defensive Stance requires).

McMorning has an insanely powerful heal mechanic as he heals a point for every dmg he does in Melee, should we change that based on the arguments for why Seamus shouldn't be able to heal more effectively with live for pain?

That is what McMourning was designed to do. He is very focused on that and doesn't really do anything else for his crew (he is the heavy hitter). Also McMourning doesn't have Hard to Kill or Hard to Wound 2 adding to his durability.

Also consider that you are effectively making Seamus a Cb7 master by removing the icon from Live for Pain versus Mcmourning's 6. That 1 point may not seem like much but it elevates him dramatically against average Df.

Seamus wasn't designed to be the best killer in the game only the most flamboyant.

...I think that not being able to use Live for Pain in Melee is a major factor in why Seamus is not by any stretch of the imagination a competitive master.

So the argument has shifted from Seamus isn't competitive because so many of his abilities dont work on other models (non-living) to he isn't competitive because he isn't the most durable and effective killer in the game?

Live for pain needs to work in melee. Plain and simple it makes him much more viable without his avatar it has a short range and makes him the tank that seamus should be with h2w2 and hrd to kill. :it brings him to a solid place

With that combination of abilities Seamus becomes insanely difficult to take down even with his low Defense (necessitating focusing completely on him in an attempt to kill him in one turn or having him live to retailate, heal back up while killing your models).

I dont think Seamus was designed to be a tank (despite the inclusion of those two abilities), he is an ambush predator that Lures targets in, weakens them, then goes in for the coup de grace. In this regard he excels against everything but crews that have a lot of Immune to Influence (which unfortunately has become a much more common ability).

After having read and participated in this thread (the other one in regards to Seamus specifically and numerous others like these over the years) it is pretty evident (to me anyway) that the real complaints are that the masters don't fit the players perceptions or desired playstyles. In this regard there isn't much I can really add (other than being a voice of desent).

[Gruesome]

Round 1 of tournament Saturday my Seamus with NO avatar was facing Lilith.

I had reached a point where I still had my full crew and two of his models were dead and we were squaring off around the objective.

I made a mistake and lured a model that I had a Grudge against towards some shafted markers that set both of them off. It paralyzed his model and given time, I would have gotten my Grudge, but what I accidently did in removing those shafted markers was opened a charge lane for Lilith through a little terrain onto Seamus.

Game over.

For one mistake, once Lilith was in melee with Seamus, it was game over. All lure would do is give her another charge.

I sat there thinking, "If only I had not been in that thread that talked me into trying him without his avatar..."

Any other rezzer master would have had an answer or some mechanism for escape.

Nico - Paralyze, lure out, surround with undead and start decay bombing/paralyzing.

McMourning, scalpel Sling out of combat and then go wherever, OR depending on the wounds, just try to kill her.

Kirai, turn spirit and swirl, or die and lost love swirl out, whatever...

But Seamus had no means of coping with her. I had less soulstones(Another suggestion in this thread and running with more models), so trying to win a casting duel with something like undead psychosis was not going to work.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Gruesome

[Kriltic]

The issue is striking a balance between the original concept/fluff and what works and is competitive now. Perhaps altering the masters to become a bit more like what the vast majority of new players perceive Seamus and Nicodem isn't a bad thing, it certainly wouldn't hurt if it did (assuming a balance was made).

The counter to saying Live for Pain would be too powerful is to say you need a 7 minimum for it to work plus you need to cheat first whereas using Seamus' normal melee attack only has the limit of beating the defenders total, and you may not have to cheat first, plus its trigger is very good. If you still think this is too good raise the CC to say a 17 so a 10 is needed and therefore you need to be a little more careful with casting it. (added to previous post part way up the page)

Edited November 21, 2012 by Kriltic