How to make our Masters more competitive/balanced?

[CRC]

(but Average Wp still succeeds 46% of the time with cheating)

Not to single you out, but I've seen this line several places on the forums.

Is everyone mistyping "without" as "with"? Because 100% of the time I cheat such a flip, I'm going to succeed...

[Silas Cordell]

I've seen nothing that changes my mind about aSeamus as auto-include.

I can understand why some people do not auto-manifest though. But even if you do not tailor your crew around trying to manifest as quickly as possible, 2 points does not buy a better "emergency button" for Seamus with anything else.

His worst case scenario is "getting caught". Why would you EVER want to be without the ability to turn into literally one of the SCARIEST melee in the game?

Where would the 2 points go instead that could ever give such a game changing difference?!?

Even just as a threat? Who WANTS to get into melee with you with big enough creatures to take him down knowing that he could flip the tables and WANT you near him to heal off of your frightened screams.

Two points of GOLD, I says.. two points of gold...

I like canine remains as much as the next rezzer... but a single dog vs. having aSeamus as an option? Crazy talk...

I could imagine them being put to better use in his Pool, since his cache is only two, but not often.

[Gruesome]

I could imagine them being put to better use in his Pool, since his cache is only two, but not often.

I guess it could be, but I view it more like his pool size is always whatever I decide to make it, so I would not say that its avatar vs. pool for me. If I want a pool of 8, I save 6 stones for it.

For me, the REAL comparison is whether that 2 points for his avatar is better spent on 2 points of other models or not. And I have yet to have that perfect Seamus crew that comes out to exactly the number of points in models and cache such that it would only be worse by virtue of adding Avatar as an option.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Gruesome

[Omenbringer]

Not to single you out, but I've seen this line several places on the forums.

Is everyone mistyping "without" as "with"? Because 100% of the time I cheat such a flip, I'm going to succeed...

It means that you only have a 46% chance of having the card flipped from the fate deck or in hand to cheat the flip on the first Draw requirement of the game.

It becomes very, very difficult to predict the chances of drawing any card from a deck that has been cycled as you have to consider the specific history of the card(s) drawn (which will strongly influence the possiblities of the next draws).

[Kriltic]

What he means is... If hes cheating the flip hes going to succeed otherwise he wouldnt cheat the flip, i.e. His odds of passing are 100% when involving cheating. The 46% is fine when saying flipping/to succeed but not to say flip/cheat, it doesnt sound different at first glance but when you think about it the difference is rather large.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Kriltic

[Omenbringer]

I guess it could be, but I view it more like his pool size is always whatever I decide to make it, so I would not say that its avatar vs. pool for me. If I want a pool of 8, I save 6 stones for it.

For me, the REAL comparison is whether that 2 points for his avatar is better spent on 2 points of other models or not. And I have yet to have that perfect Seamus crew that comes out to exactly the number of points in models and cache such that it would only be worse by virtue of adding Avatar as an option.

As you hint at every SS saved for the cache and attaching the Avatar is one more that could have been used for hiring other models (up to 2 Rotten Belles, 4 Canine Remains, etc if taking a full cache and the avatar).

Avatar Seamus is good (dont get me wrong I like the guy) however in a 30-35 SS game you are often better served by hiring more models (that for the most part are guarantied to be there and start working from turn 1 in most cases). Out activation is a huge obstacle to over come in this game (especially when you effectively take away some of your Masters attention by working at least one requirement to allow manifestation at some point).

I rarely take more than 4 SS with any master (with only a few very specific exceptions). Even with that small of a cache choosing to attach the Avatar means that I could have hired either another Rotten Belle or 2 Canine Remains. Either of these options would provide me another objective grabber and at least one more activation (not to mention an increase in the crews overall durability).

[Dumb Luck]

Rarely take more than 4ss hmmm? The oppisite seems to be true in the UK. I remember at the Doubles when people where gunning for 10ss caches across the board.

[Omenbringer]

What he means is... If hes cheating the flip hes going to succeed otherwise he wouldnt cheat the flip, i.e. His odds of passing are 100% when involving cheating. The 46% is fine when saying flipping/to succeed but not to say flip/cheat, it doesnt sound different at first glance but when you think about it the difference is rather large.

I understand that completely however consider that you still have to have actually drawn the correct value card into your hand to be able to cheat with in the first place. The percentage chance of that occurence is taken into account (once again this only considers the first draw only of the game).

Here is the description of the math

The target number (Terrifying 13) minus the base Stat (average Wp of 5) multiplied by the number of instances of each number that provides success (in this case 8,9,10,11,12 & 13) multiplied by the number of occurences of that number (4 suits) plus 1 for the Red Joker all divided by the number of cards either in the deck or the control hand at the time of the first duel.

or

13-5=8 (card value needed for success)

6 (The number of instances of card values greater than or equal to 8 is 6 (values 8,9,10,11,12 & 13))

6 x 4=24 (numbers 8-13 in each suit)

24+1=25 (the above number range plus the single 14 value)

25/54=.46 or 46% chance of a average Wp model succeeding on the morale duel caused by Terrifying 13

Its still about 31% if Avatar Seamus raises it via Succumb to Darkness to 15 (however this means that Seamus will also have significantly diminished his resistance to any Wp Duels as his base stat is now 3). Upping it to Terrifying 17 though makes it very difficult to resist (only a 16% chance of succeeding) however again makes virtually any Wp resist spell or ability directed at ASeamus a sure thing unless he burns a SS to add to the flip, Wp 1) and also will take at least 2 turns for ASeamus to get to that point (and will limit his ability since it is a rival 0 action to Gargantuan Growth).

[Cunning]

Rarely take more than 4ss hmmm? The oppisite seems to be true in the UK. I remember at the Doubles when people where gunning for 10ss caches across the board.

Yep, there are a few masters you might not need that many but normally I'd always try and take as many as possible.

Soulstones keep masters alive and kill other models. Especially a master without any more soulstones.

[Omenbringer]

Yep, there are a few masters you might not need that many but normally I'd always try and take as many as possible.

Soulstones keep masters alive and kill other models. Especially a master without any more soulstones.

The only Master (and Henchman) that are really worth having a larger cache on are Colette and VonSchill (thanks to the awesomenss of Slow to Die with Healing Flips). Damage prevention flips aren't reliable enough when facing big damage (average prevention of 2 Dg) out putters (like Samael, Lady Justice, Lilith).

Additionally, soul stoning the resists or opposed duels only works against things with resists (and there are an increasing number of them that dont), and then only for so long (especially when facing a lot of models) and mainly against models that have average or lower stat values (most Masters have above average Ca or Cb (7) and only average Df (5)).

To each his own of course (keep in mind though that I primarily play gremlins so am used to having a very low cache and also ample ways to provide resistless damage and opprotunities).

[Gruesome]

As you hint at every SS saved for the cache and attaching the Avatar is one more that could have been used for hiring other models (up to 2 Rotten Belles, 4 Canine Remains, etc if taking a full cache and the avatar).

Avatar Seamus is good (dont get me wrong I like the guy) however in a 30-35 SS game you are often better served by hiring more models (that for the most part are guarantied to be there and start working from turn 1 in most cases). Out activation is a huge obstacle to over come in this game (especially when you effectively take away some of your Masters attention by working at least one requirement to allow manifestation at some point).

I rarely take more than 4 SS with any master (with only a few very specific exceptions). Even with that small of a cache choosing to attach the Avatar means that I could have hired either another Rotten Belle or 2 Canine Remains.

Hmm... Its interesting you say that. Its hard for me to picture playing with so few soulstones for Seamus(Or Nicodem).

Not that I mean there is something wrong with it, more that for how I play, it would suck.

I wonder what sort of choices I'd make if I forced myself to take so few SS with Seamus and NOT take his Avatar. I wholeheartedly admit that his Avatar has become a crutch/bludgeon for me as I have shifted with him to look at the game in terms of setting myself up for wreaking havoc with his Avatar. And given the opportunity to do so, he pays off.

In the spirit of seeing things from a different perspective, could you do me a favor and let me know what sort of list and schemes you might choose in a tournament for something like Destroy Evidence?

And on the other end of the spectrum, something like shared claim jump?

If you happen to see this post and reply in time, I promise that I will actually attempt to play the posted list tomorrow at a charity tournament I am going to that Nilus is running if a strategy that is close enough is flipped. (Its all flip for strat tourney)

Its 35SS faction, but my intention is to run mostly Seamus... Unless I finish getting some paint on the McMourning sitting on the table behind me.

(I could play Nicodem, but have played him at every tournament I have ever been in for 2 years and was going to take a break)

I will take notes and then post battle reports of what happened and we can all laugh at me.

(I actually got enough Paint on aSeamus last night to pass the gaining grounds rules for paint but if you give me a list without him, he will sit on the sidelines )

P.S. If you tell me the drowned, I will weep as they are also sitting on the painting table only primed...

Edited November 17, 2012 by Gruesome

[Mike3838]

Your maths is wrong Omenbringer. Well, not the maths itself, but you're doing the wrong calculation.

Do you think it is correct that on 54% of first turn first flips, you would have *no* cards 8 or higher in your hand? You're pretty likely to have at least one highish card, wouldn't you say? If on more than half your turns you don't have a high card in your hand, your extraordinarily unlucky! That's why your 46% looked suspect to me.

The calculation you need to do is "what is the probability of failing the WP duel", and then subtract it from 1.

You fail the WP duel if

A) your flipped card is 1-7 or BJ

AND

card number one in your hand is less than 8

AND

C) card number two in your hand is less than 8

AND

Etc

Essentially, the top 7 cards of the deck all need to be below 7 after shuffling. If just *one* of then is 8 or higher, you can pass the Terrifying check.

1st card: 29/54 (All cards below 8 + BJ)

2nd card: 28/53 (since you already drew the first card)

3rd card: 27/52

Etc

7th card: 23/48

Multiplying these together gives your chance of all 7 being low = 0.8%

So your chance of getting at least one high card, and to pass the duel, allowing cheating is 100% - 0.8% = 99.2% = practically guaranteed.

If that seems high consider this analogy. Approx half the cards in the deck are high and half are low. You want to know the chances of 7 in a row being low. This isn't a million miles away from flipping 7 heads in a row on a fair coin. Rather a rare occurrence.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Mike3838

[ravenborne]

It is very easy for Seamus to find himself up against a crew where many of his abilities are so diminished that he really must Avatar to stay competitive. If you absolutely know you are not going to be facing a crew that will create this situation, then fine, you might not need aSeamus. But if you are talking about competitive play, its critical to have the option to avatar, simply because of what you might see on the other side of the table.

I guess I don't much like absolute language like "auto-include" but I firmly believe the above is true. In any case, he really needs a 4 cache.

[Omenbringer]

Your maths is wrong Omenbringer. Well, not the maths itself, but you're doing the wrong calculation.

Do you think it is correct that on 54% of first turn first flips, you would have *no* cards 8 or higher in your hand? You're pretty likely to have at least one highish card, wouldn't you say? If on more than half your turns you don't have a high card in your hand, your.

I see I was being lazy and only using the simple probability of only the first flip (46% of the cards in the deck will meet or beat the required value of 8) without factoring in the history of each draw for the control hand (6 cards plus the flip fromthe deck). So yes the odds of a player not having a card that can beat Terrifying 13 either in his control hand or on the first draw from the fate deck is very, very low (though it does happen and in my case fairly often ).

Edited November 17, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Omenbringer]

Though it is a bit late for your tournament...

In the spirit of seeing things from a different perspective, could you do me a favor and let me know what sort of list and schemes you might choose in a tournament for something like Destroy Evidence?

For Destroy the Evidence in a competitive setting (only really assured of 4 turns of play) I would look at something along the lines of

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter

--

3 Pool

Copycat Killer [2ss] or attach the Avatar

Molly Squidpiddge

[9ss]

Necrotic Machine [2ss]

• Crooligan
  [4ss]
  
  
• Crooligan
  [4ss]
  
  
• Dead Doxy
  [5ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  

This list should have the Crooligan's Destroying Evidence markers on turn two (and moving on to the next ones thanks to Always on the Move and Curiosity Calls).

The Dead Doxy is also a pretty fast objective grabber for the crew (especially if able to sling shot from the forward Crolligans with the 0 action Inviting Approach and benefitting from both Seamus' Belles of the Ball and Molly's Extraordinary Dead). In this circumstance it is theoritically possible to shoot one up to 27" upfield in one activation regardless of severe terrain penalties.

The Schemes I would look at with this strategy are things like Bodyguard (since Seamus and/ or Molly can turtle in this situation), Breakthrough (since you'll be upfield any way), Hold Out (depends on what your opponents Strategy is) and Stake a Claim (easy victory points with a Dead Doxy run on the last moments of the game).

And on the other end of the spectrum, something like shared claim jump?

For this Strategy (once again considering a competitive event with less than a full compliment of turns) it is all about controlling the center so I would start with something like this:

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter

--

4 Pool

Grave Spirit [1ss]

Molly Squidpiddge

[9ss]

Necrotic Machine [2ss]

• Crooked Man
  [4ss]
  
  
• Crooked Man
  [4ss]
  
  
• Crooked Man
  [4ss]
  
  
• Dead Doxy
  [5ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  

Judicious spamming of Shafted markers helps deal with any threats to control while Seamus, Molly and the Dead Doxy form a durable core of models that can camp on it surprisingly well.

Jaakuna Ubume might also be worth considering in this circumstance for a few reasons Denial of Sanzu, Siren Call and Drowning in Her Wake. Her large base can also be used to base block.

Schemes I would look at are things like Bodyguard, Hold Out (all the action is going on in the center so...), Kill Protege (your more than likely going to have to deal with it anyway), or Steal Relic (the Master is pretty likely to be there as well and most of them are Living models) and to a lesser extent Assassinate (same as above though more dependent on the Master).

Granted these wont be "easy buttons" but they should present a pretty decent chance of success (at least for completing your Strategies and Schemes). It is how I would approach things based on only the circumstances presented (without regard to my opponent which might change things a bit).

I will reiterate again though that I really dont feel Malifaux lends itself very well to super competitive environments (especially for slower developing Masters) and provides the best experience when played much more casually (and lower encounter levels).

I am very much looking forward to reading your battle reports as its easier to offer specific advice with them.

[Q'iq'el]

Nicodem

I'd defiantly remove the second crow he needs for Reanimator, it doesn't seem right that he needs very specific cards when his game relies around summoning things.

The only other things I would be tempted to do is give him some sort of corpse counter creating mechanic such as discarding cards, ie weak = 1, moderate =2 and sever = 3... Red joker = 3 + another flip... Make it a 0 action and possibly give Nicodem instinctual or make it a 1 action but limit it to once per turn, perhaps even make it a spell?

Nicodem's game does not revolve around summoning at all. This is the problem with evaluations like this - you have to base them on the correct premises first and foremost.

Yes, Nicodem's summon is very powerful - he can summon most of the Undead models on the table without paying their SS cost. It is limited by high requirement, so that you can't really do it reliably more than 2-3 times during a game. This is by design and makes perfect sense.

So, to get the premise right: Nicodem's game resolves around buffing and healing Undead models.

The question is, should he be able to buff them more? Heal is already insanely powerful as is.

Nicodem has got new buffs through Rafkin and Molly, but there's a high price attached to these models.

[Kadeton]

Nicodem's game does not revolve around summoning at all. This is the problem with evaluations like this - you have to base them on the correct premises first and foremost.

Nicodem's game currently does not revolve around summoning, because it's hard to pull off and resource-intensive. However, a lot of people (including basically everyone who looks at Nicodem for the first time) want to play him as a summoner first and foremost. To say that it's not the "correct premise" is to assume that Nico's core gameplay can't be adjusted to place more emphasis on summoning and less on buffing - I think that assumption is flawed. This is a wishlisting thread, after all.

[Q'iq'el]

Nicodem's game currently does not revolve around summoning, because it's hard to pull off and resource-intensive. However, a lot of people (including basically everyone who looks at Nicodem for the first time) want to play him as a summoner first and foremost. To say that it's not the "correct premise" is to assume that Nico's core gameplay can't be adjusted to place more emphasis on summoning and less on buffing - I think that assumption is flawed. This is a wishlisting thread, after all.

I'd have no qualms with an openly wishlist post. No need to read it if you don't care either. But this is being discussed under the guise of improvement and re-balancing masters and on the top of that the proposed changes are supposed to bring the masters more in-line with the fluff and original design.

In the case of Nicodem this is not only highly subjective, but also not how he has been played for years now. No excuse for not researching it before you get into him (I understand there's plenty misinformation about him around) and even less for proposing the changes under guise of "improvements.

[Kadeton]

You don't think summoning is a significant part of Nico's fluff and original design? I see his buffing and healing of undead to be the crutch that people rely on to make him viable because he doesn't live up to his summoner fluff. Improving his summoning seems like a clear way to make him more competitive, so I have no idea why you've got such a problem with it in a thread which is about that exact thing. If it doesn't match the playstyle you've internalised for Nico, fair enough, but there's no need to shout other people down for wanting one of Nico's main aspects to be more prominent than it currently is.

[Q'iq'el]

There's very little original fluff about Nicodem. In the Book 2 stories he already has an army of Undead and only uses his skills to raise some Punk Zombies and buff them... I don't remember, perhaps heal them too.

In Wyrd Chronicles Nicodem appears with Mortimer, to murder a half-drowned resurectionist on the run from the Guild. The implied motive is the need for a body.

But yes, I do not think summoning is the central part of Nicodem's fluff. Gathering corpses and experimenting together with McMourning to reanimate an entire army quickly, definitely yes... but the scenes we have in the Book 2 imply these things are being done mostly with the use of devices, fluids and other Resurrections craft.

Having a command of such an army, making them fight better, restoring them channeling the Malifaux' magic - that is something Nicodem actually does in the fluff.

The entire "summoner" spin was, IMHO, misguided from the start. People put to much store in his ability to summon almost anything from the faction and tried to build his crews around it. It reversely affected how people advertised the master to their friends, but it has little to do with his actual gameplay or fluff.

---------- Post added at 05:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------

If it doesn't match the playstyle you've internalised for Nico, fair enough, but there's no need to shout other people down for wanting one of Nico's main aspects to be more prominent than it currently is.

Except that actual Nicodem players, few as we may be, may not want him changed only because those who do not play him would like to play him if he was a summoner.

But my argument was less about likes and dislikes and more about the simple fact that the wishlists (as you called it) and improvements are not the same thing and shouldn't be mixed up. It is hard to ask for the right improvements if you don't play and understand the master very well, which is probably why these requests shouldn't be based on superficial understanding of the fluff.

[Kadeton]

The entire "summoner" spin was' date=' IMHO, misguided from the start. People put to much store in his ability to summon almost anything from the faction and tried to build his crews around it. It reversely affected how people advertised the master to their friends, but it has little to do with his actual gameplay or fluff.[/quote']

I think there is something about the gameplay style supported by summoning that attracts some people, and since Nico is (or was, in Book 1) the closest thing to a dedicated summoner there was, they tried to make him fill that role. Personally, I don't object to the idea that those people should get a master that supports their playstyle.

Right, but the people who wanted to play him as a summoner don't play him any more, because he's pretty bad at it. If you're asking a self-selected group of people whether they want to change the thing they specifically selected, they're always going to say no... but that ignores all the people who would be in favour of a change.

I also object to the idea that there can only be one way to play a master - I think Yan Lo is the best example of this emphatically not being the case. If Nico gained a boost to his summoning abilities, but could heal and buff undead in exactly the same way as before (such that your current playstyle was perfectly preserved), why would the "actual" Nico players object? Does opening up an alternative playstyle somehow invalidate the existing one?

Every single request here is a wishlist, and there is no "one true understanding" of any particular master which must be adhered to. Seeing Nico as a summoner is not some wacky off-the-wall interpretation - in fact, in my experience it's the most common initial impression of the majority of players. It's only once they play a few games and realise his summoning is unfeasible that they come to an understanding that, in his current form, his strength is as a support caster, with the occasional summon if possible. That doesn't make their interpretation wrong, it just makes it badly supported by the rules. There are no "right improvements" in an objective sense, the only question is whether a given improvement does or does not support a particular playstyle.

[Kriltic]

When I first started playing I got the impression that Nicodem was a summoner who could also buff. He seems to be a master who buffs and uses Rigor Mortis or Decay on things and occasionally summons, now Yan Lo has come out this isn't so unique to Nicodem.

Now, pretty much the only unique thing about him that no one else can do if provide a large area buff for undead models. Everything else he can do others seem to be better at it and so he gets left out of most competitive games which doesn't seem right to me. If you allowed him to summon better, it means he now lives up to image most people instinctively see when they see his model/rules or read about him but also it means he now stands out a little more as a master.

The suggestions I made for Nicodem only shift his (1) actions a little more to using Reanimator rather than Rigor Mortis or Decay all the time. It certainly seems like he would be more interesting this way, at least in my eyes.

[Gruesome]

With Nicodem I summon 2-3 times a game. It does not feel like he is "not a summoner" to me. I *DO* cast Rigor Mortis and Decay a lot more than Reanimator, but that does not lessen the effects of the summoning for me.

For me, I'd definitely like to see Nico get a better SS cache.

The other thing I would like to see is, along the lines of some other discussions, boosting a master with a minion.

So, I'd like to see Mortimer become more viable by having a (0) action that can give Nicodem an extra :crows for his casting.

What this would do for me is make Mortimer worth taking again and make Nicodem+Mortimer be closer to your sort of "I want to summon more" version of him while also leaving his other abilities intact for those that like him the way he was.

So, take Mortimer when you are "zombie-horde" Nicodem and all your high cards are going into making dudes.

Don't take Mortimer and all your high cards are continuing to paralyze and decay the enemy.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Gruesome

[Kadeton]

I'd like to see Mortimer become more viable by having a (0) action that can give Nicodem an extra :crows for his casting.

What this would do for me is make Mortimer worth taking again and make Nicodem+Mortimer be closer to your sort of "I want to summon more" version of him while also leaving his other abilities intact for those that like him the way he was.

So, take Mortimer when you are "zombie-horde" Nicodem and all your high cards are going into making dudes.

Don't take Mortimer and all your high cards are continuing to paralyze and decay the enemy.

That sounds excellent to me. In general, I'd prefer to see lackluster minions given greater synergy with lackluster masters rather than straight-up buffing the masters themselves - I feel like the game is often too much about the masters anyway, rather than about the crew as a whole.

[ravenborne]

For anyone interested, I've gotten to the point that I can play him pretty reliably as a summoner - not that I always do, though. When I want to though, I bring Mortimer and some dogs. You don't even have to rush into killing the dogs, they can harass the enemy and die while doing whatever you need them to do.

The trick is as soon as you get any sort of decent crow, summon a Rogue Necro and remember to draw your four cards. After that, you ought to have what you need to keep the machine going.

Effective in some games, not so much in others. But, I feel like I get to play him as a summoner if I want to.