How to make our Masters more competitive/balanced?

[Kriltic]

Having seen the thread on Seamus I thought I would start a more generic one for all our lovely masters and see what changes people can think of. Obviously we aren't looking at removing every masters legitimate weaknesses, i.e Kirai's wound count being lower than most masters or the Nicodem is rather slow. Its just a collection of tweaks we would like to see to bring our masters in balance internally with one another and externally with the other factions. So without further a do I would look to the following:

Kirai

Increase SS cache to 4... that's about it really as I feel she is well done as a master

McMourning

Not sure there's anything I would change for McMourning, I just don't have any experience with him.

Nicodem

I'd defiantly remove the second crow he needs for Reanimator, it doesn't seem right that he needs very specific cards when his game relies around summoning things.

The only other things I would be tempted to do is give him some sort of corpse counter creating mechanic such as discarding cards, ie weak = 1, moderate =2 and sever = 3... Red joker = 3 + another flip... Make it a 0 action and possibly give Nicodem instinctual or make it a 1 action but limit it to once per turn, perhaps even make it a spell?

Seamus

Since there's an entire thread for him its a little easier to pick out a few things,

Up his cache to 4/5.

Add excessive bleeding to his pistol or give it critical strike (or equivalent).

Remove 'living' from trail of fears.

Also remove the gun icon from Live for Pain.

Obviously this is just an opinion so either people will disagree or find other things to add but I just thought it would be interesting to see other peoples opinions on what changes we need to make us a little bit more competitive with other factions and internally so we don't default to the same master.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Kriltic

[Rathnard]

Hmm, interesting ideas.

To be honest I think Seamus is the only Master who really warrants a boost in the Resser faction, and even then it's not as if he's unplayable. Hell, I'd actually be happy with just a few extra Soulstones in his Cache.

I guess Kirai might possibly do with a tweak too, but in the opposite direction to what you're thinking.

[Twisted Metal]

Kirai is one of the top five masters (pre 10t) and needs no help.

[Kriltic]

I don't think that she is as good as she once was thanks to the larger number of magical attacks/weapons that have entered the game, even more so now T10 are out. I'm by no means saying she is weak but then that's evident by the fact all I put suggestion-wise was +1 SS in her cache.

I do however think Nicodem needs tweaking as he seems to get played the least, for a variety of reasons but I think a large part is that the other Ressers can do most Strategy and Schemes better than him and that he doesn't quite match up to most other Masters.

[Rathnard]

Nicodem? If he's unpopular, it's because he's not particularly fast (Book 4 helps alot) and tends to need a fair chunk of the Resser range available to him. Other than that, I think he's a very solid Master. Rigor Mortis and Bolster Undead are both excellent and his summoning, even if you only use it a few times each game, makes him great at playing the attrition game.

If it wasn't for the model count and the fact that one of my regular opponents plays him quite alot, I'd absolutely grab myself a Nicodem crew.

[Kriltic]

He is good with attrition but Kirai does it much better and summoning too (just because shes not suit dependent).

I think if Nicodem could summon easier (i.e no specific suit) then his lack of speed wouldn't be an issue as he can quickly make his crew do the dirty work far more easily. And if he could create more corpses he would be the attrition and summoning master of choice, which lets face it, he should be. But this is just my opinion, I was just thinking of ways to make it a bit harder to decide which of the masters you would pick for each game but letting them all be a bit more viable at each strategy.

[Metalhed]

Removing a suit requirement on summoning is contrary to most summoning spells (Ramos, Seamus etc - don't know Kirai) but as Nico is supposed to be the master summoner I can see justification. Perhaps a middle ground. Remove the suit requirement but limit the summoning to a SS cost of x (whatever is reasonable) and add a trigger that if he gets the crows there is no limit on the SS cost of the summoned model.

Allows the spell to have greater utility.

[pixelante]

Though this may sound condescending, I think the trouble people are having with X master isn't anything to do with the master, but rather trouble thinking outside the box.

I listen to quite a few podcasts Malifaux orientated and otherwise and the impression I get is that a master that might be deemed really good in one scene is dismissed in another. Granted some masters are more obvious than others, but this game is about combos too, how one model interacts with another model.

Also I think people tend to fall into the mistake of grading a model based purely on its killing potential. If model A delays an opponents model to allow model B to score the victory points is it any less valuable than model C that kills the enemy model instead? Which is the more satisfying victory, killing your opponents models through brute force or flummoxing your opponent with tactical brilliance?

Before you call for a change to a model, I'd like to see a proper scientific investigation of that master or minion, how it works in every scenario, with every scheme and how it works with other masters or minions it is allowed to team up with. Only after rigorous testing could any calls for change be taken seriously.

I am not an expert by any loose association of the word, but I will offer this bit of advice. If you aren't getting anywhere beating your head against a brick wall, perhaps it is time to walk around it instead.

[Kriltic]

Kirai just needs an 11+ suit isn't important unless you want to summon further away, so 13/54 chance of getting the right card without using SS. Nicodem needs a 10+ of Crows so 5/54 which as I said doesn't seem right. A SS cap on his summoning limit doesn't make much sense really, it certainly wont make him OP if there wasn't one. Plus as I said he is the summoning master so he should be better at it than most. Changing it to any suit means his chances are 17/54.

Pixelante, what you ask for is impossible, the number of possible scenarios and outcomes is too great. Sometimes science must be done through theory. However my post is all about the masters and how well they balance out with one another and seeing what changes other people would be interested in seeing. The idea is supposed to be a bit of fun and a little wish listing but one that could be possible.

Oh and Ill update the first post (highlighting changes) and see what people think. As I said the idea was supposed to be a collection of peoples thoughts on what they would like to see change wise to help level the playing field, so suggestions of your own are welcome!

[Gruesome]

Kirai: I'd leave alone

McMourning: I'd leave alone

Nicodem: 5 SS cache (Usually have a high :crows and an emergency Reanimator could be cast with most :crows and a SS)

Seamus: So many ideas swirling in that other thread. Many sound good to me.

When the dust cleared, I was a fan of:

4 SS cache

removed from Live for pain

Necrotic Ministrations is changed to ANY model

Face of Death Gets Anathema

If he had those changes, I could imagine games where I did not manifest.

[Metalhed]

Kirai just needs an 11+ suit isn't important unless you want to summon further away, so 13/54 chance of getting the right card without using SS. Nicodem needs a 10+ of Crows so 5/54 which as I said doesn't seem right. A SS cap on his summoning limit doesn't make much sense really, it certainly wont make him OP if there wasn't one. Plus as I said he is the summoning master so he should be better at it than most. Changing it to any suit means his chances are 17/54.

I agree from a fluff perspective he is the summoning master and it makes sense. I think the trigger might be an alternative view to looking at it if people felt really worried about removing the suit limitation. Maybe as the pool of undead models grows there may be a reason for that suit limitation in some circumstances. If that were the case having a limitation that can be overcome in circumstances still allows for the spell to be useful regardless of your hand (well as far as suits go) and not relying on flipping the right card.

[ravenborne]

I've played Ressers for quite a while now, and I can win pretty regularly with them if I put my mind to it. I have come to the opinion that the Resser Master's don't so much need a boost as there are a few master's who need a bit of toning back. There are still a few Masters out there that just should never really lose against the majority of crews if played by a good player.

[Blog]

Not sure if thread is actually serious... All the rezzer masters are fine imho.

[Kriltic]

Yes its serious, It was upposed to be bit of fun to see what different people thought. It seems however to have ended up as people arguing with me.

I never said they weren't competitive masters it was just a suggestion as to how we would tweak things to bring all masters up to the same level.

[CRC]

I never said they weren't competitive masters it was just a suggestion as to how we would tweak things to bring all masters up to the same level.

If they're competitive, then they're all at the same level.

The problem here is variance. The performance of a arbitrary master varies across players, their collections, their groups, local meta, etc. With so much variance, it's very hard to tell unless a large power imbalance exists, and Wyrd has been correcting those.

Also, part of the problem is the faction vs faction balance scheme. Even if you can clearly show that (say) Marcus completely owns Seamus, you have to go on to show that the Resurrectionist player should be using Seamus, and the other five options are worse.

In order to show that a faction is underpowered, you either need lots of statistics, or you need compelling anecdotes. The latter are far easier to come by, but are mostly evidence that a specific configuration is overpowered rather than underpowered. For example, Alp-Bombs clearly showed OPness.

[Kriltic]

When did I say Ressurectionists are underpowered? And sorry but not all masters are equal, thus why I created this thread. Why has a post thats supposed to generate a bit of fun ended up like this?

[CRC]

When did I say Resurrectionists are underpowered? And sorry but not all masters are equal, thus why I created this thread. Why has a post thats supposed to generate a bit of fun ended up like this?

Wait... Sorry... WTF?

You post a thread with subject like "How to make our Masters more competitive/balanced?" giving a list of buffs, when you don't think they need buffing?

Anyway, no one is saying that all masters are equal, what we're saying is that we don't actually know which are worse and which are better.

[ravenborne]

The general problem I find with balance discussions is that they take place outside the context of what the player is trying to accomplish: Strategies and Schemes.

Now, if by balance are we saying, "How can we make each Master better at everything", I guess that's valid but I would prefer to see Masters more specialized. Masters that are good at everything tend to cause the balance problems.

[Gruesome]

To OP...

I did not intend to sound like I was arguing with you. I just stated my opinion that Kirai and McMourning needed no help, and Nicodem just a little Cache boost.

As far as Seamus goes... well... I obviously think he could use some help.

[CannonFodder]

This is a major case of Paper, Rock, Scissors, with Strategies tossed in for just to make things clearer **sarcasm**.

Seamus unfortunately has a lot of bad match ups because he is mostly fear based, which is the main reason his avatar was made. I don't think a revamp is needed, a couple new toys woudl be fun.

Resser have a couple extremely powerful models but people don't count them. I'm talking about Nurse & Night terrors. Nurse combos with a lot of things, and effectively speed manifest all their masters. 3 Night terrors will win a lot of games, while the rest of you army is just a big distraction.

[Silas Cordell]

When did I say Ressurectionists are underpowered? And sorry but not all masters are equal, thus why I created this thread. Why has a post thats supposed to generate a bit of fun ended up like this?

You should dig up and read through some of the previous discussions if you think this is arguing. This is polite disagreement.

A thread about how to make something "more competitive" does imply that you believe they're underpowered. Otherwise, there would be no reason for the thread.

Personally, I haven't had any trouble feeling like McMourning and Kirai are competitive. Nicodem I don't use as much, and his slow speed bothers me more than his summoning. If you gave him the ability to generate corpses (especially while also allowing him to use Arise the same turn, which you implied) he might just break the game.

[Kriltic]

Gruesome don't worry I didn't see it as arguing, you merely posted what you thought were fair changes which is what the whole thread was about after all!

CRC, I think some masters need help so they are just as appealing to all players (including competitive players) and can fight most other masters without starting off on a back foot i.e Seamus struggles vs more and more crews due an increasing number of models that are Immune to Influence and the proportion of living models decreases. Tweaking him a little so he can still do ok vs these kinds of crews seems fairly reasonable. Nicodem has a similar weakness which a few minor tweaks means he can still fight against non-living crews or still do ok in highly mobile Strategies.

Ravenborne, I'm not saying make each master identical and good at everything, but more give them a chance to at least do ok at different things. I.e level the playing field, so have the choice of 2-3 masters to deal with most strategies/enemy masters etc rather than just the one in many cases.

I realize my suggestions are not perfect, it was supposed to be a starting point and add/remove/alter points depending on what things people thought would help. As I said its meant as a bit of fun to see what people would do given the chance.

[pixelante]

It isn't impossible to put the faction under a microscope, a majority of scientific papers have multiple authors and same method could be applied here if you really wanted to.

Any number of players could volunteer their time to play one master exclusively covering all the strategies and schemes and trying different minion combos. Such games would need to be graded on the quality of opposition, but after about a year of solid gaming you would probably have a large enough data sample to analyse.

[Omenbringer]

Though this may sound condescending, I think the trouble people are having with X master isn't anything to do with the master, but rather trouble thinking outside the box.

I listen to quite a few podcasts Malifaux orientated and otherwise and the impression I get is that a master that might be deemed really good in one scene is dismissed in another. Granted some masters are more obvious than others, but this game is about combos too, how one model interacts with another model.

Also I think people tend to fall into the mistake of grading a model based purely on its killing potential. If model A delays an opponents model to allow model B to score the victory points is it any less valuable than model C that kills the enemy model instead? Which is the more satisfying victory, killing your opponents models through brute force or flummoxing your opponent with tactical brilliance?

...I am not an expert by any loose association of the word, but I will offer this bit of advice. If you aren't getting anywhere beating your head against a brick wall, perhaps it is time to walk around it instead.

I agree whole heartedly with all of this. I have won plenty of Malifaux games while barely killing any of my opponents crew (and have lost plenty after having killed plenty of theirs).

When I first started playing this game Som'er was considered one of the worst Masters/ crews in the game. I played him because I really enjoyed his style and learned how to win with him consistently (developing tactics that over came the supposed weaknesses).

Not all Masters/ crews are designed to rampage across the board and lock swords (or grimmy parasols) as quickly as possible, many are designed to sit back and wait a bit (observing a much more defensive posture with a calculated mid to late game push). Learning how to really play to the strengths of your crews is part of the allure of this game as it isn't always obvious.

Seamus unfortunately has a lot of bad match ups because he is mostly fear based, which is the main reason his avatar was made. I don't think a revamp is needed, a couple new toys woudl be fun.

I hear this fairly often but dont really agree, Terrifying is a nice benefit but his vanilla crew is plenty capable of controlling the flow of the game without it.

I would also add that this thread shows the problems with a lot of these "re-balance" threads, they are entirely to subjective. A particular player may dominate a community with a certain master/crew and yet completely suck with another or when playing in another community. With the exception of a few very specific examples, I would argue that most models/crews/masters in the game are fairly competitive as is (about the only model in the game that I would say is categorically 100% non-competitive is the Malifaux Child Totem).

Edited November 14, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Ausplosions]

Remove the suit requirement but limit the summoning to a SS cost of x (whatever is reasonable) and add a trigger that if he gets the crows there is no limit on the SS cost of the summoned.

Nicodem does not have a limit on the SS cost of the model being summoned.