aViks issue resolved or no?

[Spartan31337]

as a new Viks player who recently purchased the avatar, i was reading this rules discussion here:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?26694-Manifesting-the-Viktorias-Avatars-of-Slaughter/page7&highlight=aviks

looks like it became inactive in april (which is why the new thread, i don't want to necro), and since the outcome seems relevant to what i am starting, i wanted to know if any official ruling was released?

the gist of the arguments is that the viks can use (all) action after companioning, replacing the vik that didn't use the (all) action with the avatar so the avatar can activate will all its AP, while the counter arguments states that, well, they can't.

[Kadeton]

Heh, I remember that thread. Daaang.

Anyway, as far as I know, nothing official was ever stated.

[DarcXON]

Heh, I remember that thread. Daaang.

Anyway, as far as I know, nothing official was ever stated.

OMG, I just finished reading it and that Shadai guy...... Oh wow

But on a more productive note, I don't believe that a ruling needs to be made. More like a clarification, since the wording on the aViks card is pretty straightforward. They would actually get to activate immediately too, since they are already activated which is why they would get the AP. If they weren't on a Companion chain then they would not get the AP to have an activation at all.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Yeah, looks unanswered.

Which probably means they're working on it.

[Spartan31337]

I don't believe that a ruling needs to be made. More like a clarification, since the wording on the aViks card is pretty straightforward.

that was rather my take on it. i don't think the comparison between aViks and the coryphee is valid, since the cards say different things. i guess the main thing is when does a model gain its AP; when it "activates" (so with companion, all models in the companion chain would have all their AP when the companion chain is declared, since all models "activate" simultaneously) or when you actually start doing stuff with the models (moving down the companion chain). in the first case, aViks would hit the table will full 2 AP (plus the 2 ap from melee expert); in the latter case, it would hit the table with 0 ap (as the model that it is replacing - the unused Vik - hasn't "gone" yet, so didn't receive the AP yet).

i guess i'll just play it that it can activate (and recieve AP) as i think the first case is correct (due to the wording in companion) until an infernal (or whatever they are called by Wyrd rules guys) gives a ruling on it, since that seems to be the RAW.

[DarcXON]

That would be Rules Marshall or Badges like I like to call em'

[Omenbringer]

i guess the main thing is when does a model gain its AP; when it "activates" (so with companion, all models in the companion chain would have all their AP when the companion chain is declared, since all models "activate" simultaneously) or when you actually start doing stuff with the models (moving down the companion chain). in the first case, aViks would hit the table will full 2 AP (plus the 2 ap from melee expert); in the latter case, it would hit the table with 0 ap (as the model that it is replacing - the unused Vik - hasn't "gone" yet, so didn't receive the AP yet).

i guess i'll just play it that it can activate (and recieve AP) as i think the first case is correct (due to the wording in companion) until an infernal (or whatever they are called by Wyrd rules guys) gives a ruling on it, since that seems to be the RAW.

From the 1.5 edition of the Base book page 32:

Action Basics

Each Model receives two (2) general action points at the start of its activation.

Second relevant part (also from page 32)

Multiple Activations

When an effect allows a player to activate two or more models simultaneously that player first states all of the models he or she is activating. Next, the player selects the first model in the group and acitvates it as normal, and so on, until all of the models acting simultaneously have completed their activations, activation passes to the next player in activation order.

So models receive their AP when they start their individual activation (not at the begining of the Companion chain).

Additionally you have to look at the rules for Replacing models on page 36

Replace

Some placement effects require a model (or models) to Replace one another. When a model(s) Replaces another, place that model in base contact with the model it is replacing, then remove the replaced model from play. There must be room for the model to fit. Any effects on the model(s) being replaced are applied to all Replacing models, including any Wounds suffered, which must be divided as evenly as possible between them.

The Replacing model(s) continue the activation using any general AP the replaced model(s) had remaining. If there are not enough general AP to evenly divides them as evenly as possible and decides which model recieves any remainder. The Replacing model(s) can use their specific AP during this activation if any of the replaced models had not already used the same talent or spell. When multiple models replace a single model, they complete their activation using the simultaneous activation rules.

Since Avatar Vik is compossed of both Viks, and one has already used an (All) action, Avatar Viks activation would end as soon as they were Replaced (since an (All) action specifies that it is all a model can do during the activation with only one notable exception, that actions from triggers may be resolved).

[Hateful Darkblack]

I am dizzy but convinced, Omenbringer. Thanks!

[Omenbringer]

I am dizzy but convinced, Omenbringer. Thanks!

Not sure if I shold be flattered or offended?

I am going to choose flattered since I really love this scene from the Princess Bride about "Dizzying Intellect" (and well have a pretty high opinion of myself)...

"]

No seriously though I do try to assist where I can (I really love this game and its evolution).

[Adran]

Yes I agree.

The avatar model has no action points to use.

The moral of the story is avatar with the second Viktoria.

[Kadeton]

I agree with Omenbringer that the spirit of the rule is that the Viks' Avatar doesn't get any AP. I don't agree that's the way it's actually worded if you take RAW as gospel, but RAW arguments are stupid. I think the intention is clear.

[DarcXON]

From the 1.5 edition of the Base book page 32:

Second relevant part (also from page 32)

So models receive their AP when they start their individual activation (not at the begining of the Companion chain).

Additionally you have to look at the rules for Replacing models on page 36

Since Avatar Vik is compossed of both Viks, and one has already used an (All) action, Avatar Viks activation would end as soon as they were Replaced (since an (All) action specifies that it is all a model can do during the activation with only one notable exception, that actions from triggers may be resolved).

But hold on, when models start the companion chain they are considered to have activated, but are waiting to resolve their activation. This would mean that they have the AP.

And Example would be the Guild Hounds, who after they companion each other, they get the Extra AP for (On the Trail). But you do bring in another important point. That apparently this isn't as clear as some of us thought it was. So maybe we do need a badge on this one.

[Omenbringer]

But hold on, when models start the companion chain they are considered to have activated, but are waiting to resolve their activation. This would mean that they have the AP.

Companion doesn't activate a model it only determines that it may activate (granted the wording in hte FAQ is a bit muddy).

From the Online Errata here is how the Simultaneous activation is resolved;

Breakdown of timing for Simultaneous Activation

1. Nominate models selected to be Simultaneously Activated.
   
2. All Models selected count as having Activated at this point. (Abilities like 'On the
   Trail' check now as it says 'if it activates within')
   
3. Select each model in the Simultaneous Activation to perform its individual
   Activation. Repeat a-e below until all of those models have activated
   
   1. If the model is Paralyzed it forfeits its Activation. (Skip to
      next model)
      
   2. The model's individual Activation Begins/Starts (Poison,
      Terrifying, Regenerate, and other effects that say 'Begin
      their activation' happen now)
      
   3. The model's AP is generated.
      
   4. The model spends AP.
      
   5. The model's individual Activation Ends.

The above clearly shows that even though the Companion chain "starts the models simlutaneous activation" at Step 1, it isn't until the individual model actually begins its activation (at step 3c) that it receives its AP. In any case the replaced (non-activated) Vik would still have to accept the penalty for the (All) action of the activated Vik, leaving the Avatar Vik with no AP (or ability to do anything other than the possible Healing flip from manifestation resolution).

And Example would be the Guild Hounds, who after they companion each other, they get the Extra AP for (On the Trail). But you do bring in another important point. That apparently this isn't as clear as some of us thought it was. So maybe we do need a badge on this one.

I dont think a Rules Marshal needs to weigh in as it is pretty cut and dry (due to the rules citation from the new 1.5 edition book and the Online Errata document detailing Companion). Replacing the non-activated Vik will not allow Avatar Vik to use AP if the manifestation was the result of an (All) action. So in a nut shell I agree with the below

The moral of the story is avatar with the second Viktoria.

[Spartan31337]

now that you put the errata out there, i would agree with the "avatar with 2nd vik". i think that they could have worded the card better, rather than having to dig through multiple rulebooks/errata, but at least it has been explained so that i understand.

the argument that the main opponent made in the original thread was either flawed or not well stated, i think.

as far as the "replacing" argument goes, i'm still a bit hazy on that one, as per the card you aren't "replacing" both viks, just the unactivated one (you are "removing from play" the activated one that spent the (all) action) so i don't see why the penalty from the activated one should transfer to the unactivated one (as the activated one is removed and the other unactivated one is replaced). but i get the companion argument since the unactivated one never gets its ap in the first place, so there's nothing for the avatar to use (same instance if you didn't companion, the unactivated one never gets its ap).....

Thanks Omenbringer for helping!

Edited November 6, 2012 by Spartan31337

[Omenbringer]

as far as the "replacing" argument goes, i'm still a bit hazy on that one, as per the card you aren't "replacing" both viks, just the unactivated one (you are "removing from play" the activated one that spent the (all) action) so i don't see why the penalty from the activated one should transfer to the unactivated one (as the activated one is removed and the other unactivated one is replaced).

Now I see where in the problem lies, dont think of it as removing the Viks from play (which you definately are not) you are replacing both of them with the Avatar Vik (essentially they are both still very much in play, just now on one base). Since you are combining both models to form the replacement you have to consider each's permanent affects, i.e. Wounds and used AP.

Thanks Omenbringer for helping!

No problem, I try where I can.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Kadeton]

Now I see where in the problem lies, dont think of it as removing the Viks from play (which you definately are not) you are replacing both of them with the Avatar Vik (essentially they are both still very much in play, just now on one base). Since you are combining both models to form the replacement you have to consider each's permanent affects, i.e. Wounds and used AP.

Ah. That's the basis of the whole RAW argument: according to the card, you do not Replace both Viks. You actually do Replace one, and remove the other from play. That's why it has that specific clause about taking the Wds from both Viks, which would not be needed if they were both replaced. By RAW, you are not, in any sense, combining both models.

However, I totally agree that replacing both models is the way it should be played.

[DarcXON]

Yep but the lil snippet Omen put out. specifically

Breakdown of timing for Simultaneous Activation

Nominate models selected to be Simultaneously Activated.

All Models selected count as having Activated at this point. (Abilities like 'On the

Trail' check now as it says 'if it activates within')

Select each model in the Simultaneous Activation to perform its individual

Activation. Repeat a-e below until all of those models have activated

If the model is Paralyzed it forfeits its Activation. (Skip to

next model)

The model's individual Activation Begins/Starts (Poison,

Terrifying, Regenerate, and other effects that say 'Begin

their activation' happen now)

The model's AP is generated.

The model spends AP.

The model's individual Activation Ends.

Bold area has the specific part that trumps the Vik activating. So they can Replace either of them, but only the one taking the action gets to do anything. Unless you activated a Vik, went through her activation THEN manifested. But then again you still dont get to use your Avatar turn two this way.

[Kadeton]

The point is that it doesn't matter when the AP is generated. Breaking it down:

One Viktoria activates. She uses the (all) Manifest action. She is removed from the game.

The other Viktoria (not yet activated, has not generated any AP) is replaced by the Avatars of Slaughter.

The Avatars of Slaughter activate. Neither they, nor the model they replaced*, have generated any AP or used any actions this turn. They activate with full AP.

* This is the important bit. Only one Viktoria is replaced, and it can be the unactivated one.

All this is due to the silly wording in Manifest step 3: "Replace one Viktoria with Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria from the game." If it just said "Replace all Viktorias with Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter," then there would be no argument.

Again, I would always play it the way that Omen suggested, because that's the way I think it should be played - but there is a proper RAW argument to be made if you think RAW carries more weight than RAI.

[Adran]

The point is that it doesn't matter when the AP is generated. Breaking it down:

One Viktoria activates. She uses the (all) Manifest action. She is removed from the game.

The other Viktoria (not yet activated, has not generated any AP) is replaced by the Avatars of Slaughter.

The Avatars of Slaughter activate. Neither they, nor the model they replaced*, have generated any AP or used any actions this turn. They activate with full AP.

* This is the important bit. Only one Viktoria is replaced, and it can be the unactivated one.

All this is due to the silly wording in Manifest step 3: "Replace one Viktoria with Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria from the game." If it just said "Replace all Viktorias with Viktorias, Avatars of Slaughter," then there would be no argument.

Again, I would always play it the way that Omen suggested, because that's the way I think it should be played - but there is a proper RAW argument to be made if you think RAW carries more weight than RAI.

This is wrong. The replaced model does not Activate, it continues the activation. So it will not generate general action points, it only gets to use remaining action points from the replaced model. If you replace the Vik that isn't currently activating, it has generated 0 action points, and so the Avatar comes in with 0 Action points.

[Kadeton]

This is wrong. The replaced model does not Activate, it continues the activation. So it will not generate general action points, it only gets to use remaining action points from the replaced model. If you replace the Vik that isn't currently activating, it has generated 0 action points, and so the Avatar comes in with 0 Action points.

Ah, I see. That's an interesting one - "continue the activation as normal for a Replaced model" doesn't really work when the model you're replacing hasn't actually activated. However, it's a great way to highlight the fact that something very basic is wrong with the rules as written.

[Spartan31337]

taking the stance that the avatar comes in with 0 action points (which i think is correct), and leaving the (all) penalty off the table for now (which i'm still hung up on for the reasons listed above, namely the wording on the card regarding manifesting; however i think it is how it should be played anyway) for the sake of argument, would it still get the +2 from melee master/ 0 actions?

[Omenbringer]

Ah, I see. That's an interesting one - "continue the activation as normal for a Replaced model" doesn't really work when the model you're replacing hasn't actually activated. However, it's a great way to highlight the fact that something very basic is wrong with the rules as written.

If it wasn't an (All) action that was used to manifest then this would be a very different question. The Rules as written aren't wrong at all just incomplete when processed in a vacum. Add in the other rules I have cited throughout this thread and it makes a lot more sense.

Also stop thinking about the manifestation as removing the Viks from play. That isn't happening at all instead they are replacing the two of them with one model (they are both still there and in play).

taking the stance that the avatar comes in with 0 action points (which i think is correct), and leaving the (all) penalty off the table for now (which i'm still hung up on for the reasons listed above, namely the wording on the card regarding manifesting; however i think it is how it should be played anyway) for the sake of argument, would it still get the +2 from melee master/ 0 actions?

As I hinted at above if it wasn't an (All) action that was used to manifest then you would still be able to use Melee Master and a 0 Action (as long as it wasn't used as well). Additionally, if there was any general AP left on the replaced model then you would be able to finish it off (this is where replacing the unactivated Vik vice the activated one pays off).

[pixelante]

Its taken me three pages to work out what this thread is about which tells me there is something fundamentally wrong with your communication skills.

But I now get the issue in question was asking if one of the Viks uses ALL to mnaifest the Avatar of Slaughter and the other Vik hasn't activated yet then does the Avatar have some AP to spend. I'd have to say no, but I do think she would still have the 0 charge and melee master. Why, I dunno I don't have the rules in front of me, just call it a gut feeling. It just feels right.

[Omenbringer]

But I now get the issue in question was asking if one of the Viks uses ALL to mnaifest the Avatar of Slaughter and the other Vik hasn't activated yet then does the Avatar have some AP to spend. I'd have to say no, but I do think she would still have the 0 charge and melee master. Why, I dunno I don't have the rules in front of me, just call it a gut feeling. It just feels right.

If the model used to manifest used an (All) action to do it, then it is the only action that the model can do (Look at the Rules for (All) actions on page 32 of the Malifaux 1.5 edition). Since the model is replaced by the Avatar Vik, regardless of which model (activated or unactivated) is actually physically replaced the (All) action penalty carries over. The rules for Replacing Models is very clear that the AP carries over to the replaced models (since the penalty for using the (All) action is still in effect, the models activation ends as soon as the Manifest has resolved).

Its taken me three pages to work out what this thread is about which tells me there is something fundamentally wrong with your communication skills.

A bit of an insulting statement but it is a problem with linking to another thread vice spelling out the question again (which would have only resulted in linking back to that thread anyway).

Edited November 8, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Kadeton]

Also stop thinking about the manifestation as removing the Viks from play. That isn't happening at all instead they are replacing the two of them with one model (they are both still there and in play).

Where, exactly, are you getting this idea from? The rules state, very clearly and in plain language, that one Viktoria is replaced (player's choice), and the other Viktoria is removed from play. That is the problem with the rules as written.

Again, if the manifestation steps stated that both Viktorias were replaced, there would be no problem. Unfortunately, it doesn't say that in any way.

[Omenbringer]

Where, exactly, are you getting this idea from? The rules state, very clearly and in plain language, that one Viktoria is replaced (player's choice), and the other Viktoria is removed from play. That is the problem with the rules as written.

Again, if the manifestation steps stated that both Viktorias were replaced, there would be no problem. Unfortunately, it doesn't say that in any way.

You can not replace both models with a single model so this doesn't really solve the issue.

When taken in a vacum (i.e. only reading the card) it is a bit muddy (as I stated earlier) however when you look at it thru the context of the rules for Replacing, Simultaneous Activations and the Action Point rules for (All) actions it is much clearer.

Could the lanuguage be a bit clearer on the manifestation steps on the card yes, but would it be worth adding a few lines to the card just to clarify a very unique circumstance (that could be resolved by reviewing the referenced rules).