10T and Non-Asian Models

[Saracenar]

My understanding of the Ten Thunders is that they are based on the Three Kingdoms, which is a triad of Asian nations.

So where do characters like Jakob Lynch and Mr. Graves come into things? They don't really give off Asian vibes (more English or American). Or do they symbolise that the Ten Thunders are a far-reaching organisation, with agents everywhere?

Just curious is all.

[dgraz]

Alliances. Not everyone has to be asian.

[Ratty]

As someone put it in another post Ten-Thunders are a crime organization trying to infiltrate all parts of Malifaux. It would be a bit silly if they didn't have non asian agents.

"Right, Guards, we want you to watch out for Ten Thunder assassins.. Bill, you and Bob need to go and patrol the corridors. Wang, you guard the Governor General".

But I think Jakob reminds me a lot of a member of the Axe Gang from Kung Fu Hustle so may well end up getting painted asian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xny3SmzbSBA

Edited August 19, 2012 by Ratty

[Saracenar]

As someone put it in another post Ten-Thunders are a crime organization trying to infiltrate all parts of Malifaux. It would be a bit silly if they didn't have non asian agents.

"Right, Guards, we want you to watch out for Ten Thunder assassins.. Bill, you and Bob need to go and patrol the corridors. Wang, you guard the Governor General".

But I think Jakob reminds me a lot of a member of the Axe Gang from Kung Fu Hustle so may well end up getting painted asian.

Yeah I thought so, I just wanted to be sure. Thanks for the confirmation, and the funny example.

[JisaacT]

I like that there is some non-Asian models. There were some

Complaints that people didn't enjoy the Asian look but it's only about half you can say are true Asian. They may work for ten thunders but as we can see like in Jacob lynch he looks like a nice man in some English (I think) clothing.

[Saracenar]

I quite like the English looking models. Mr. Graves, Mr. Tannen, Jakob Lynch, the Wastlers, etc, are all pretty cool.

[96p]

My first thought was... Hong Kong

[Alviaran]

My first thought was... Hong Kong

Agreed. And given the aspects related to a certain master, I am also getting an opium vibe in a way.

Open Spoiler

Also, Mr. Graves and Mr. Tannen are not human. I'm guessing that their relation to the Ten Thunders is more their protecting and serving Lynch who is tied to the Ten Thunders than any actual agency with them

[Kuro]

Man... Kung Fu Hustle is a great movie.

[D_acolyte]

I could not find in the first three books where is states that the Three Kingdoms are and triad of Asian nations; so for the longest time I thought and still think till I get book 4 that it is a ref to China having a civil war.

As for the non Asian masters, people will try to tell you that as a crime syndicate that they fit; the truth is that until the much latter in immigration, like after WW2 if not latter, Asian gang where anti non Asians members and would defiantly not have them as leaders/masters.

Specifically this type of organization is a familial group like the Yakuzas of Japan or the true Mafia meaning that all or almost all the masters should be related. So wyrd is shooting themselves in the foot with their fluff.

---------- Post added at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 PM ----------

But once again I am waiting on my book from my order.

---------- Post added at 02:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------

The issue with alternate universes is the difference must be explained between the one we know and the alternate otherwise we have to use the we can only relate it to ours and use Malkemes Razor for what we do not know. Since no book as covered to the geopolitical landscape of earth in-depth we can only understand it though our world history.

For instance which is more likely for the Three Kingdoms, colonization by Europe, America and Japan of China failed and China is now in a three way civil war or that three Asian countries, of which two are known for hold grudges, now have an alliance.

Edited August 20, 2012 by D_acolyte
capitilization

[ThePandaDirector]

@D_acolyte

First, let me apologise in advance

The first paragraph of The Three Kingdoms section on Page 27 of Rising Powers references the Han Dynasty and three warlords forming a union to end a civil war.

However after that, there is more:

"Some believe that The Three Kingdoms is a reference to the true dynasty that formed just after this union..." Also it mentions "the subsequent conquest and absorption of the former East Orient and Nippon Empires that many believe comprise The Three Kingdoms".

And as for your comment about historical accuracy... book 1 has sorcerers blowing each other up pre-1900... how the Hell is it supposed to follow immigration patterns of the historical Orient? Witch Hunters likely weren't hiring cowboys to hunt down Ice Witches round this period either.

Fact is the timeline that both Earth and Malifaux are both set in is so twisted by Wyrd that you can't refer to history for anything other than technical authenticity. This is a sci-fi fantasy game and the peoples of Earth have led very different lives to our own. I can assure you that Asian Crime Syndacites hiring non-Asians is not the only thing this strange world differs from our own on. Look to the real world to plant the seed, but use your imagination to let it grow.

I apologise again, but while I can understand people being interested in historical accuracy and representation, history can and never will be the foundation for the criticism of a fictional world. History is a source with which Wyrd can add elements of depth to their creation, not so they can restain themselves to the limitations of unsuspended disbelief.

History was my favourite subject at school, but I don't play Malifaux to catch up on it

Edited August 20, 2012 by ThePandaDirector

[FearLord]

Agree with everything there Panda.

[D_acolyte]

@D_acolyte

First, let me apologise in advance

The first paragraph of The Three Kingdoms section on Page 27 of Rising Powers references the Han Dynasty and three warlords forming a union to end a civil war.

However after that, there is more:

"Some believe that The Three Kingdoms is a reference to the true dynasty that formed just after this union..." Also it mentions "the subsequent conquest and absorption of the former East Orient and Nippon Empires that many believe comprise The Three Kingdoms".

And as for your comment about historical accuracy... book 1 has sorcerers blowing each other up pre-1900... how the Hell is it supposed to follow immigration patterns of the historical Orient? Witch Hunters likely weren't hiring cowboys to hunt down Ice Witches round this period either.

Fact is the timeline that both Earth and Malifaux are both set in is so twisted by Wyrd that you can't refer to history for anything other than technical authenticity. This is a sci-fi fantasy game and the peoples of Earth have led very different lives to our own. I can assure you that Asian Crime Syndacites hiring non-Asians is not the only thing this strange world differs from our own on. Look to the real world to plant the seed, but use your imagination to let it grow.

I apologise again, but while I can understand people being interested in historical accuracy and representation, history can and never will be the foundation for the criticism of a fictional world. History is a source with which Wyrd can add elements of depth to their creation, not so they can restain themselves to the limitations of unsuspended disbelief.

History was my favourite subject at school, but I don't play Malifaux to catch up on it

Must have missed the Page 27 of Rising Powers.

The immigration might have been the wrong marker, especially because I did not specific to where, it would have been better to use wars as a marker.

As a large part of the game is based of off a Amarican Western feel it would be nice to think of that time period for what should be seen and any unexpected divergence to be explained.

I am less concerned with history in malifaux universe and more with addressing what was used the last time this topic was used last time this was brought up. Which main explanation was crime organization do not care about ethnicity or culture, which through history is wrong.

When dealing with an alternate world it is still important to know how thing differ. for instance though the world are difference why are there two non Asian models in the ten thunder faction as masters? Is it a matter of fluff or a matter of a difference in the world?

I play malifuax expecting good models, good fluff, and with luck good game play. The last one was a little shake the first year the game was out.

So am I a little surprised by what I feel is rather large holes in one of the things I found was good or better generally, yes.

By the way I was not offended by anything you pointed out, though thank you for the apologies any way.

[FearLord]

Historical crime organisations from real world Asia were not trying to infiltrate a Western society during the era the game takes place in. It would be unrealistic to expect them to complete any kind of infiltration of Malifaux society without some more western agents...

Nothing we have seen indicates that anyone other than Misaki is particularly high up in the Ten Thunder's organisation so the relative involvement / commitment to the cause of people like McCabe and Jakob is all speculation at the moment...

[Kuro]

I could not find in the first three books where is states that the Three Kingdoms are and triad of Asian nations; so for the longest time I thought and still think till I get book 4 that it is a ref to China having a civil war.

As for the non Asian masters, people will try to tell you that as a crime syndicate that they fit; the truth is that until the much latter in immigration, like after WW2 if not latter, Asian gang where anti non Asians members and would defiantly not have them as leaders/masters.

Specifically this type of organization is a familial group like the Yakuzas of Japan or the true Mafia meaning that all or almost all the masters should be related. So wyrd is shooting themselves in the foot with their fluff.

---------- Post added at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 PM ----------

But once again I am waiting on my book from my order.

---------- Post added at 02:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------

The issue with alternate universes is the difference must be explained between the one we know and the alternate otherwise we have to use the we can only relate it to ours and use Malkemes Razor for what we do not know. Since no book as covered to the geopolitical landscape of earth in-depth we can only understand it though our world history.

For instance which is more likely for the Three Kingdoms, colonization by Europe, America and Japan of China failed and China is now in a three way civil war or that three Asian countries, of which two are known for hold grudges, now have an alliance.

I can't imagine a bigger waste of time than speculating over the historicity of Malifaux.

[Hoyled]

The ten thunders seem fairly progressive. They need infiltrators and Lucas is in a prime position for that. They need hide outs and money and Jakob has a casino and owes a lot of money. They need people and both Lucas and Jakob have those. It seems to be the smart move to give them both some respect and a boot of authority.

Whether or not the Ten Thunders knows that Jakob has the Hungering Darkness locked in his soul is an interesting question. If not do they wonder how Jakob and a few guys hes brought over from the casino fight off guild ambushes and gremlin attacks. I'm sure any ten thunders member that goes along on the missions comes back with a smile on his face and starts spending more time at the casino.

[Elmo]

I agree with people who say that the reason for having non asian models in the Ten Thunders is for infiltration purposes.

We really don't want to end up with something like the Black Widow from the Marvel universe.

A Russian spy with a heavy Russian accent (I was glad they dropped her accent in Iron Man and the following movies).

[Cats Laughing]

I can't imagine a bigger waste of time than speculating over the historicity of Malifaux.

On the other hand, speculating on the history within Malifaux is kinda interesting.

[danokablamo]

I really don't care as long as wyrd keep releasing amazing models and good game mechanics, the fluff that's being discussed here can do one. At the end of the day it's a game with gremlins in it, because I'm sure we can look back in the depths of immigration history to find a gang of gremlins. Let wyrd do what they like with the fluff and enjoy the models and game for what they are

[Da Git]

I haven't got or read the book but it could be something alike this

Jakob: A casino owner finds himself in mass debt to the 10t (hence the crew name... ), rather than butchering him they enslave him because of NB connections & other opportunities. The casino would provides money laundering abilities (think rush hour 2). Lynch thinks he still holds power but is really a pawn or he created a web of deciept & got caught. now he is stuck between a rock & a hard place.

Lucas: a spoilt rich kid wanting to be tough? perhaps went begging to join a crime syndicate. & if you are trying to infiltrate the guild & a jaded official come begging to join what are you going to say?

As for real history as has been said, the Yakuza never needed westerners... ie. if you're not going to inflitrate the white house why have American members?

as for westerners being masters, heres a quote from a Malis Darkblade book:

"lock a Dark Elf in chains & he'll constantly try to break free & stick a knife in your back, give him power & he'll fight off all the daemons of Chaos to keep it!"

I also liked fearlords explanation of even though they a masters gamewise they a puppets of the 10T

All speculation, but from what i've read could be on the right track!

[Mako]

Jakob: A casino owner finds himself in mass debt to the 10t (hence the crew name... ), rather than butchering him they enslave him because of NB connections & other opportunities. The casino would provides money laundering abilities (think rush hour 2). Lynch thinks he still holds power but is really a pawn or he created a web of deciept & got caught. now he is stuck between a rock & a hard place.

That was my view on it after Ratty's brief description, a man who was basically a ten thunders puppet, who bargained with the hungering darkness to get loose, and is now stuck working for both and trying to play them off against each other to save himself.

[Alfndrate]

Jacob's story is kind of interesting... I like that as high as his luck can run, you're almost sure that he's going to crash and burn sooner or later... The HD kind of prevented that last crash and burn with Jacob's interactions with the 10T.

As to the idea of "non-asian" agents of the 10T, it says somewhere in Book 4 that the 10T have infiltrated almost all of Malifaux through use of bribery, dark dealings, or blackmail. Not to give major spoilers, but in Mr. Lynch's case, it is is a little more of the last one than any of the others.

[LoboStele]

Just wait for the book guys, rather than making wild speculations. The Fluff for Jacob spells out his allegiance with the 10T pretty well. Lucas isn't quite as straight forward, but I think there will be more to come that will explain his link.

[Da Git]

But wild speculations are soo much more fun!!

Besides, who knows we may end up giving wyrd an idea or two in the process!!

[nerdelemental]

I'm the doof that wrote that page 27 thing and have a hand in the development of the 10T background. Essentially, everything considered, this is a pretty simplified statement of intent:

• Abandon the notion that it's the same as OUR Earth's history. It's not. We're not even trying to make it the same.
  
• In order to survive/thrive, major emperors/warriors/leaders from emerging tribes/villages (whatevs) came together to support one another. Vestiges of individual ownership and personal goals lingered, of course. The nations in play that we might know would be China, Korea, and Japan. Smaller nations in the region may not have had a chance to ever develop like we know it. Viet Nam, for example (I just referenced Viet Nam as a "small" country. Lol.)
  
• They're one big nation and have been for a pretty long time. However, they still have a sense of cultural origins they retain even after such a long time. It's mostly aesthetic, but there has never been a full embrace of "We're one big happy nation" mentality, leading to a lot of in-fighting and political upheaval all along.
  
• Very recently, the entire 3K went into lockdown mode, shutting their borders in an unprecedented way, keeping all outsiders out and anyone in there, mostly trapped in there. Some major ports are still open but only a few and no one easily gets beyond those cities.
  
• the 10 Thunders is a Yakuza/mafia-like organization with strong political interests and connections. They've infiltrated (ninja style) a number of outworld organizations and have now, for some reason, turned attention to Malifaux.