Gruesome Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?15683-Nicodem-and-Embrace-Death&highlight=terrifying+undead+embrace+death Read that... Nothing about undead is mentioned in the spell... Same ruling is applicable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?15683-Nicodem-and-Embrace-Death&highlight=terrifying+undead+embrace+death Read that... Can't access the link (a restricted forum?). But if they require spells to target Undead for Embrace Death to work, then they are going against the rule's wording. Not the first time it happened with Wyrd ruling, but in this case it is very clear - one look on Embrace Death wording is enough to see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Poster 1: "does this mean the talent or spell in question must specifically have a diffrent effect for undead for him to do this or is it applicable to things like Terrifying that don't specifically effect undead diffrently?" Poster 2: "The effect has to affect Undead... so he could not count as Undead against a Terryfing Test..." Rules Marshall: "Correct." And I apologize for the fail on link post... did not notice which forum it came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 The moment you are undead you are intermediately considered to be a non living model. Basically, treat Nicodem as if he was an undead piece (ignores morale duels, buffs) except for the things that explicitly are bad for him. And what does Chiaki NOT do, cause good god, she is a huge package of win. Yeah, I kinda wish someone would have waited around long enough to see the Ressers get this model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Poster 1: "does this mean the talent or spell in question must specifically have a diffrent effect for undead for him to do this or is it applicable to things like Terrifying that don't specifically effect undead diffrently?" Poster 2: "The effect has to affect Undead... so he could not count as Undead against a Terryfing Test..." Rules Marshall: "Correct." And I apologize for the fail on link post... did not notice which forum it came from. Now please stop, read the Player 2 and Marshal's replies again, then read my post and tell me how are they different? The Marshal doesn't say the spell must target undead or affect them differently. He simply says it has to affect them. All I'm trying to say is that since this spell does affect Undead, you can take it with Embrace Death. There are no other requirements. Really. It doesn't work with Terryfying not because it affects only living, but because it doesn't affect Undead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Read your own post: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?22546-Nicodem-and-Leveticus&highlight=terrifying+undead+embrace+death#6 Everyone else, including you in that post, notices the word "specifically" in several of these links and discussions. Is Undead specifically mentioned in the Chiaki spell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Read your own post: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?22546-Nicodem-and-Leveticus&highlight=terrifying+undead+embrace+death#6 Everyone else, including you in that post, notices the word "specifically" in several of these links and discussions. Is Undead specifically mentioned in the Chiaki spell? I didn't say in that post the spell must specifically mention Undead. I said it must specifically affect undead. Perhaps unfortunate choice of words, but it doesn't change anything. I think you are so bent on using the interpretation you learned, you cannot step back and see it more clearly. As I said, go back to the square one, read Embrace Death again and think it over. Chiaki spell doesn't mention Undead specifically, but it does affect them quite specifically (since they are non-living). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I'm looking at this, and I really think that the best spread is Spirit-3, Ash-2, Bone-1. That gives you enough to make him into a melee monster, and at just 9 Chi, you can get it in just three deaths if you take Chiaki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I am not "bent" on anything. I would RATHER you are right. I just do not believe so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 It's a pickle. I think some of you are reading too much into the ability. Undead is a Trait Characteristic .....just like Nephilim, or Construct. So it is a very specific Named trait....which is what I believe the rules are written for. Otherwise, with the maturity of the game, you would have seen other abilities have different wording......why say Construct when you could just as easily say non-living? Why say Undead when you could say non-living? Just because something is non-living doesn't make it Undead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) Poster 1: "does this mean the talent or spell in question must specifically have a diffrent effect for undead for him to do this or is it applicable to things like Terrifying that don't specifically effect undead diffrently?" Poster 2: "The effect has to affect Undead... so he could not count as Undead against a Terryfing Test..." Rules Marshall: "Correct." I think the above exchange does not clearly support your point. There is a very reasonable doubt if the Rules Marshall was responding to Poster 1 (where "specifically .. undead" is mentioned) at all. It seems more likely that the Rules Marshall was only responding to Poster 2, which doesn't not call out "specifically ... undead" and uses the Terrifying talent as an example. Terrifying doesn't trigger Embrace Death because Terrifying doesn't affect Undead models. Terrifying notes what it affects and specifically only affects Living models without Terrifying. The Rules Marshall is probably responding "correct" to this observation, and is not actually endorsing the idea that a talent/spell needs to specifically note Undead as a target or type of model that is affected for Embrace Death to be used. However, you can't really tell if the Rules Marshall is responding to Poster 1's "specifically" or just Poster 2, because of the single word answer. I really think Rules Marshalls should work on presenting their answers in full sentences, possibly with examples, to make things as clear as possible, and really really appreciate it when they do. (thanks Ratty, Keltheos and others that have done this) As a side note, Rules Questions posted and officially answered on a restricted forum, such as the Henchmen forum or PP's Pressganger forum, really should get cross-posted to the regular Rules forum. At least in summarized/answered form. I think it would be useful information to spread and can save Henchmen work (you wouldn't have to each individually answer questions, hopefully). Just because something is non-living doesn't make it Undead. However, Undead models are non-living. So if something affects non-living models, by extension it affects Undead models. Edit: btw, based on my arguments and understanding of Embrace Death, you would be able to claim the Undead characteristic if affected by Terrifying when that Terrifying is boosted by Anathema, because Anathema would cause that Terrifying to affect Undead models. Of course, Anathema would also make gaining Undead entirely pointless, but ruleswise, I believe you would still be able to do it. Edited August 21, 2012 by Cats Laughing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Question Jonas, as I'm not seeing it in my reading of Chiaki. How are you getting to nine Chi off of three deaths with Chiaki and Yan Lo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Question Jonas, as I'm not seeing it in my reading of Chiaki. How are you getting to nine Chi off of three deaths with Chiaki and Yan Lo? I believe Anchor Chi lets you double up. After you spend the three out of your soulstone cache, you just need six more, and if you gain 2 per death with Chiaki, you just need three controlled models to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Anchor Chi also states: This ability has no effect if a friendly model with the Absorb Chi ability is within 8" of the killed model. That was my confusion as it specifically doesn't allow you to double up. I got all excited for a second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Anchor Chi also states: That was my confusion as it specifically doesn't allow you to double up. I got all excited for a second. Yeah, I misread that. Ah well, six isn't too hard to imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Yeah, I kinda wish someone would have waited around long enough to see the Ressers get this model. Boy howdy. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Well, as for the Nicodem debate, I clearly have no idea what I was talking about, my excuse is that I don't play him yet As for Yan Lo configurations, Jonas, mind giving a detailedish rundown of what each level gives from each path? Also, from your standpoint, anything that feels bonkers or too crappy or is everything mostly at an evenish level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clement Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Continuing the Nicodem debate Purity affects non-living models. Undead are non-living models. Therefore, Purity affects undead. I don't think anyone is arguing this, just trying to be complete about this. Now on to the contentious part. Nicodem can choose to become undead when affected by spells and talents that affect undead. Purity affects undead. Therefore, Nicodem can choose to be affected by Purity when it is cast. The weird wording on Embrace Death I think is mostly to imply "Nico can count as undead, but cannot skip out on morale duels with this aka terrifying". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 The weird wording on Embrace Death I think is mostly to imply "Nico can count as undead, but cannot skip out on morale duels with this aka terrifying". Practically speaking this. It goes a bit further than that and is a pretty good example of very solid rule writing if you think about it in more general terms. What Embrace Death says is: "Nicodem can count as Undead to be affected by a spell or talent, but he cannot count as Undead to avoid being affected." He can use it to rip additional benefits from the spells and talents that affect Undead, even though he is living, but he cannot use it to avoid spells and talents that would affect him, but don't affect Undead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sezar Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Sorry but could you take your Nicodem discussion to another thread? Look at the topic on this one, we're trying to learn and talk about Yan Lo. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Any news on the Chiaki/Nico Problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudFang Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 who can yan lo hire for his crew with rezzers? and who can he hire if he's running as ten thunders? curious on this part..?? thanks homies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Well, if declared as a Rezzer, then everything rezzer, including the new ones. If declared 10T, then anything 10T....but also at no additional cost...Ahigaru, Punk Zombies, Onryo, and any Ancestors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Wait, he can bring Onryo? That could be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudFang Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 thanks dgraz.. owe ya one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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