Three Seamus Changes... Please?

[Gruesome]

I was wondering what people thought about these three proposals and what they would mean for Seamus in the current game.

1. 5 Soulstones instead of 2.

2. (1) Reload: .50 Flintlock may be used again if it has already fired this activation.

3. Face of Death gets Anathema added. (I read this in another thread somewhere, sorry for not being able to credit it. Sort of want to say it might have been Guy In Suit that suggested it)

Would those three changes overpower him? Would he be top of the heap? Middle? Still bottom?

#1 is because his cache has always been crippling and he NEEDS them to stay alive. Normally crippling his own crew size to get what he needs is a bummer.

#2 Effectively takes away his fast, in exchange for making him a large shooting threat. Some might find this OP, but I want to point out that it also means that all 3 of his actions are spent with just his weapon. So, that means he is NOT getting his "automatic" manifest requirement done(Face of Death), nor is he manifesting if he already had his requirements done.

#3 Is nice because it means that maybe he is not always AUTO-manifest and "feels" like the sort of thing that is leading towards manifest by introducing anathema.

Thoughts?

[fritz the cat]

Having played with seamus quite extensively, I have a few opinions on your proposed changes.

1. While he does need lots of soulstones to stay alive, the upside to him being a resser is that his crew models are very efficiently costed, you may have to sacrifice a bit of crew for his survivability but you can still fill in alot of crew with his remaining SS.

2. Personally using him, I find this rather unnecessary. I found that rather than taking more shots I made more use of focused shots, which while not doing as much potential damage made his attacks it made him alot more productive with his middling SS pool and his need to save them to protect himself. The combination of more starting SS and more shots alone is too much in my opinion Id say if either were viable, it would be one or the other.

3. I can see this being a reasonable change. Too many things in the game just totally avoid terrifying, and anathema isnt any more effective versus things that are susceptible to terrifying to begin with.

[rancor709]

Id be happy with cache 4

Live for pain lossing its gun

And rewording necrotic ministrations to work when any model dies.

[Boscotopia]

I think they are all awesome ideas! Just so people cannot say it is OP, have your Reload like Rapid Fire, where they discard a card to reload.....and if they still say OP, have it where the second shot at -1 Cb because it is a rushed shot.

The Anathema I am guessing you are referring to overriding the ITI and other WP-immune abilities that are being passed around to all of the new models like Herpes at Spring Break.

I am all for something to fix this shift. Nico and Seamus feel the sting of power creep.

I think fixing the SS is the easiest way for Wyrd to get the weaker Masters in line, but Wyrd would rather you buy the new minion and Avatars, so I do not see them making any changes. No matter how people say it on here, it distills to the solution, "you just need to buy more."

[Cornelious1424]

Id be happy with cache 4

Live for pain lossing its gun

And rewording necrotic ministrations to work when any model dies.

His cache is too low, I'd be happy with a Cache of 3 or 4. If Face of Death had Anathema I think it would take away the use of his Avatar. To be honest I don't use that spell to often anyway, even against living crews. I'd be happy with Trail of Fear being -2Wp to all models and not just living. After facing/being on the other end of Ophelia a few times, I really don't see why (other than fluff) that he is limited to firing the Flintlock once per turn. She can fire 3 times a turn with pretty much the same damage out put (it's actually slightly better at severe). I'd be okay with 1 shot a turn if it had the Excessive Bleeding trigger and if I'm not mistaken, it originally had it.

[Adanedhel]

After facing/being on the other end of Ophelia a few times, I really don't see why (other than fluff) that he is limited to firing the Flintlock once per turn. She can fire 3 times a turn with pretty much the same damage out put (it's actually slightly better at severe).

Don't forget that this a) cost Ophelia 4 Wds, and a (0)action to give herself the Ram, I'd prefer Seamus to have Necrotic Ministrations lose the living or undead part and Live for Pain losing being ranged. As an Outcast player, I do not agree that 2SS Cache is to few, since we only have Cache 0 masters, and Leveticus has an effective cache of -2 (for the dog).

[Gruesome]

As an Outcast player, I do not agree that 2SS Cache is to few, since we only have Cache 0 masters, and Leveticus has an effective cache of -2 (for the dog).

That is not a good comparison, IMO. Your caches are compensated for in other ways. I do not typically hear many people complaining about Hamelin, Leveticus, Somer or the Viktorias being weak. (Used to hear Somer rumblings, but not so much anymore)

If there are balance issues internal to Outcasts relative to other masters in Outcasts, feel free to post about it, but cross-faction cache comparisons do not hold water for me in terms of making me choose one master versus another in the same faction for a game.

This thread is about Seamus in the context of his position in the Rezzers. I enjoy playing him quite a bit, but ultimately, in terms of truly trying to win strategies, there are better arguments to be made for taking the other masters for almost all of the strategies.

Now, for me, "because I like him" is quite often good enough for me to play him instead of others. But, as I try to learn the entire faction, I simply want to start exploring ideas for every master within my faction being the "best" choice for some niche and I feel like right now, he is lagging behind there.

[Dorian]

I like the mentioned changes. If face of death gains anathema I might reduce the range to 3 instead of 4. To me 4 is mighty big and a bit strong as evidenced by the hate of Lilithu and her 4" melee.

*Obligatory gripe about scheme*

Personally I'd just be happy to see his scheme changed. Currently his scheme suck, flat out it is garbage AND mandates you take a PoS model. Mandating you take any model except Seamus is wrong IMO but the CCK is just so much crap. My suggested scheme change, which I have tested & find works great.

Nowhere to run nowhere to hide.

Seamus or undead models in Seamus' crew must kill two enemy models while they are under the effects of undead psychosis.

Thematic: check, Difficulty: moderate, your enemy has plenty opportunity to defend against it, mandates: none except Seamus.

[Boscotopia]

Ok, then let Seamus take 4 Wds. I am good with that. The arguement may not even be who is more powerful than the others. I think it is the case where Book 1 Master, except Levi, have fewer choices. If Ophelia WANTS to take wounds and 0 action, she CAN. Seamus is very limited in what he can do ESPECIALLY when his WP duels do not work. Book 2 Masters were created with more options and more avenues to succeed. Book 1 Masters need more options.

---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------

I agree. I am ok with the additional schemes for all of the Masters and/or a re-working of the previous schemes.

I do like the CCK, but I agree that I should not have to bring him just so I can play my thematic scheme, nor does having CCK as the focus make sense. Why not a Belle getting the kill? That makes more sense.

[Gruesome]

Great point about the range of Face of Death, I had forgotten about that.

On board with the scheme change too..

[Dustcrusher]

Id be happy with cache 4

Live for pain lossing its gun

And rewording necrotic ministrations to work when any model dies.

.

How about Seamus's new scheme go something like this (I admit the wording will need to be cleaned up):

"Score 2 VP if a model is killed by a Belle while also affected by Distract and Undress. Insignificant models do not count towards this scheme."

[Dorian]

How about Seamus's new scheme go something like this (I admit the wording will need to be cleaned up):

"Score 2 VP if a model is killed by a Belle while also affected by Distract and Undress. Insignificant models do not count towards this scheme."

Absolutely not, You now mandate that Seamus' crew include a belle. While most of times you will, it should not be FORCED on the person. Also this scheme is 100% completable with or without seamus.

For those who think Seamus cannot run without beles try aSeamus + a list of terrifying models. Works great against living crews when Seamus manifests and all that terrifying goes up one.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Dorian

[Soundwave]

Absolutely not, You now mandate that Seamus' crew include a belle. While most of times you will, it should not be FORCED on the person. Also this scheme is 100% completable with or without seamus.

Actually, you're not, since he can summon Belles.

[Dorian]

I guess, even so now you're requiring 2 summons. 2 spells that can be resisted with the belles measly ca4, and that you have a belle do the killing. BEST case scenario you need two belles to get this done assuming you don't take any belles from the start that at least 2 turns spent (Trying to) summon them. Too difficult, no interaction from Seamus required, still very much against it.

[Alviaran]

Here is a random change: what if the scheme was changed to "If Seamus killed a model with a soulstone cost of 7 or more, Master, Henchman, etc., score 1 VP. If the Copycat Killer kills an enemy model (note the lack of restrictions on it being a bigger model), score 1 VP."

Let's Seamus do the work himself against something bigger but is still thematic in his Copycat Killer getting the job done on someone as well (basically, he is mimicking what he sees Seamus doing, but doesn't need to kill a 7ss+, etc. model). I think in this case it is easy to get the first VP and a little harder (though still easier than it is currently) to get the second VP.

[Dorian]

Here is a random change: what if the scheme was changed to "If Seamus killed a model with a soulstone cost of 7 or more, Master, Henchman, etc., score 1 VP. If the Copycat Killer kills an enemy model (note the lack of restrictions on it being a bigger model), score 1 VP."

No, in order to get full points I am forced to take a a specific model which is my major gripe.

[Vagabond]

For those who think Seamus cannot run without beles try aSeamus + a list of terrifying models. Works great against living crews when Seamus manifests and all that terrifying goes up one.

When Seamus manifests ALL friendly models become terrifying – including belles, so you really don't need to gear your entire lists toward terrifying creatures if Seamus is going to manifest anyways.

[Cornelious1424]

No, in order to get full points I am forced to take a a specific model which is my major gripe.

Agreed 100%. I love the CCK, but it really isn't a good choice for Seamus. If Mistaken Identity did not require a mask I think I'd see the little guy on my table a lot more. The Grave Spirit is just a better choice. The problem with the scheme is that you have to spend 2ss to get 2vp, which is totally wrong IMHO. I really like your scheme idea, Dorian, it's thematic and something that a Seamus player should be trying to do anyway.

[Sandwich]

I'd support a similar vein, but I'd like to keep emphasis on his downfalls.

For example,

His .50 Flintlock should still be once per turn, but with the massive damage output models are capable of, its damage should be drastically increased.

To something like 6/8/9.

I still agree with my Face of Death getting Anathema statement, but I believe his base Terrifying should be bumped to Terrifying->13.

This changes the focus of Face of Death from 4"-> Terrifying 14 to a an irresistible 4" Terrifying.

Makes it scarier.

I think the Necrotic Ministration buff will work fairly well, also.

- - - -

Other ideas that'd drastically improve the faction without changing any models within the faction.

* Make Terrifying affect everything but Constructs. Make Anathema give to Terrifying flips.

- This makes the Avatar of Dread a massive shift in power, while also redirecting some power back to models like The Hanged.

- This change will work to increase the feasibility of certain lists outside of Seamus.

* Make Last Rites an (All) Action.

- This removes a Hard Counter against the faction, without negative the power of the Action. Currently, outside of Kirai, any model with the ability to outright remove all Corpse Counters within 6" is game over for Nicodem, and absolutely shafts Seamus in certain lists where he needs to counter someone like Lady Justice by overwhelming her. But also gives Justice an option to defend herself from a horde if the need arises.

* Double or triple the amount of model types that Drop Corpse Counters.

- Spirits and Constructs have an excuse for not dropping Corpse Counters. Nothing else does.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Sandwich

[Ratty]

When Seamus manifests ALL friendly models become terrifying – including belles, so you really don't need to gear your entire lists toward terrifying creatures if Seamus is going to manifest anyways.

Nah but you can key towards Wp reduction. Crooligans, Night Terrors etc.

[DarcXON]

Here is a random change: what if the scheme was changed to "If Seamus killed a model with a soulstone cost of 7 or more, Master, Henchman, etc., score 1 VP. If the Copycat Killer kills an enemy model (note the lack of restrictions on it being a bigger model), score 1 VP."

Let's Seamus do the work himself against something bigger but is still thematic in his Copycat Killer getting the job done on someone as well (basically, he is mimicking what he sees Seamus doing, but doesn't need to kill a 7ss+, etc. model). I think in this case it is easy to get the first VP and a little harder (though still easier than it is currently) to get the second VP.

Still forces you to buy CCK.

These are a few things that would make Seamus tourney worthy (not counting adding Avatar).

1) Live for Pain without the gun

2) +1 Cb to both his weapons and add a :crows to his gun with the Rot Trigger

3) Take out Womanizer add Companion Belle

4) Trail of Fear be changed to All Enemy Living Models

5) Take out the extra Crow on Arise my Sweet and now says Summon a Non Unique Belle

[Sandwich]

No, in order to get full points I am forced to take a a specific model which is my major gripe.

When running a list with Seamus, regardless of the models you start with, what exactly are you doing with the Corpse Counters?

All he can summon are Dead Doxies and Rotten Belles, both of which are Belles.

Molly? The only non-Belle she can summon is the Crooligan.

And I sincerely doubt you're spamming those badboys.

I think that Scheme change is actually pretty good, to be honest.

[Dorian]

When running a list with Seamus, regardless of the models you start with, what exactly are you doing with the Corpse Counters?

What corpse counters? I have run games where nothing of mine has died and my opponents are non living and I have run games where there was nothing i wanted to do with them. If I run Rafkin (albeit rarely) I shuffle the counters onto him for body parts. Also they can be used by aSeamus. Plus his summoning is a (0). Since he only gets one who says I want to do anthing with the corpse counters. Often I find his other (0)'s more worthwhile.

[kasin666]

thats the sacrifice of doing certain schemes

[Cornelious1424]

Still forces you to buy CCK.

These are a few things that would make Seamus tourney worthy (not counting adding Avatar).

1) Live for Pain without the gun

2) +1 Cb to both his weapons and add a :crows to his gun with the Rot Trigger

3) Take out Womanizer add Companion Belle

4) Trail of Fear be changed to All Enemy Living Models

5) Take out the extra Crow on Arise my Sweet and now says Summon a Non Unique Belle

1) Yes.

2) Seamus is a support master, I think his stats express this and are fine as is. I also don't like giving him Rot on the flintlock, just doesn't seem to fit his character. Seamus is a dapper "gentlemen", not a dirty necromancer. Something like this would be cool: Weapon, .50 Flintlock Pistol: This model receives on damage flips while within 4" of the target.

3) Yes and no. I like making the decision to use this '0' action instead of another, adds to the finesse.

4) Yes.

5) He can already summon Rotten Belles and Dead Doxys, no reason to change the wording as there are no other non-unique models with the Belle characteristic. Also, I don't think taking away the :crows for the spell is a good idea. It will force emphasis on summoning with Seamus, and I don't believe that was the design philosophy of the model.