Dumb Luck Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Talking with my (admittedly new) Hamelin players, another thing I dislike is the way he turns his entire crew Significant just for existing (him AND Nix). It lets his entire crew objective run where I have to be more careful with my model choices. I need significant models but if I have too small of a number, especially with his huge number of significants, he just Insignificants them and I cannot even play the Strategy sometimes. I like the flavour of him being a bully that makes his little guys capable (a sort of, more scare of him than they are of me type deal). But why is this just for him being on the table? I think it should be an aura, on him and Nix. Hamelin's should be larger obviously, but it makes their positioning more important and gives more pieces that can be targeted to remove effects. If I down Nix and then Hamelin, he might come back but he may come back out of position, letting me get the upper hand on that side of the board for the objectives. Just my two ss on one annoying, unfun issue I've had with him. (On a tangential note, I wonder if Pandora changes are going to be coming. I played her for the first time the other day and beat someone who has been playing a LOT longer than me without much effort. I felt dirty. I like her concept but am hoping she gets hit somehow to take her off the big NPE list along with Hamelin. Both cool masters with really cool concepts and unique play styles. Would love to just see them be more fun) I believe the very first comp pack had changes ot the insig aura on rats but I blieve if you change that too drastically, the crew becomes completely unable to complete any objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroFire Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I think the ability to give models Insignificant shouldn't work on Masters. A lot of abilities like that specify "non-Master model" but for some reason his does not. It should, because having an Insignificant Master that can't attack Hamlin can be a real kick in the guts. Also, there should be some form of hold-out against an entirely Insignificant crew, because otherwise it can be simply impossible to score any VP, depending on strategy etc. (fortunately I've been able to deal with it via Spellbreaker or Dispel Magic, but not everyone has that sort of ability.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alviaran Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I believe the very first comp pack had changes ot the insig aura on rats but I blieve if you change that too drastically, the crew becomes completely unable to complete any objective. Well, for one thing he is already playing the "I make you insignificant and you cannot complete objectives" game which puts him ahead. And I'm thinking it just needs to change from whole table to an aura. Like 6" on Nix and 10" on Hamelin himself. It makes their positioning important for getting objectives with rats and catchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 My only concern with suggestions that involve paralysing or otherwise inhibiting resummoned rats is that managing a swarm is already a total PITA, but trying to keep track of which individuals are paralysed or otherwise impaired on top of that would be even worse. Any solution has to enhance speed of play as well as playability. I think that solutions might well involve a little rebalancing of other minions, too. The endless swarm of rats is quite thematic, and when not abused (i.e. when rats basically get two activations) it nicely offsets the fragility of individual rats. If all rats can only act once before they are killed and are each easily killed then it would be trivial for many crews to completely immobilise the swarm for several consecutive turns (drop a blast or any multi attack power over the rat swarm and watch it vanish into a red mist). You run the risk of turning a swarm which can be abused into a swarm which is utterly neutered. The limited range aura for rendering insignificant minions significant is a good idea, although it should have a reasonable range (say 12" on both Hammy and Nix). It might also be worth considering whether all of Hammy's standard crew should be insignificant, though. A case could be mad for making at least the 'Catchers significant so the entire crew isn't rendered superfluous by the loss of one minion and the forced relocation of the master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRC Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Maybe go with a two-stage system? Something like: 1. When a rat finishes activating, it dies, leaving a corpse counter. 2. At the start of each turn, all corpse counters within x" of Hamlin/rat-catcher become rats. 3. Replace those kill-nearby-rats powers with turn-nearby-corpses-into-rats powers. It doesn't fit the current theme of "no corpses", but I'm not sure I care about that. Yes your opponents can "shut it down" by killing all your rats before you activate them, and between when Hamlin re-spawns them and they activate, but I'm also ok with that too. They're spending a lot of effort, and just maintaining the status quo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alviaran Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 The limited range aura for rendering insignificant minions significant is a good idea, although it should have a reasonable range (say 12" on both Hammy and Nix). It might also be worth considering whether all of Hammy's standard crew should be insignificant, though. A case could be mad for making at least the 'Catchers significant so the entire crew isn't rendered superfluous by the loss of one minion and the forced relocation of the master. I think 12" on Nix is too much. The auras become so big again that it becomes superfluous to even have a range on it. Nix's needs to be significantly smaller than his master's. No more than 6". My original thought was actually to make it 4". He should HAVE to be up in the fray and at risk. The Catchers could use some change there though. How about they lose Insignificant while base to base with 2 (or 3, could use testing) rats? Basically, if the rats are swarming all over him, he loses Insig. If Hamelin or Nix are nearby, he can play a little bit farther back from his rats and be significant (still within Armor range though). The big idea I want to go for is to make the Hamelin player make choices. Tactically, he should have to think more about positioning. He should have to make a decision between X and Y with meaningful differences between the two. As it is, the crew seems to run itself for the most part which doesn't even seem fun to play AS, much less against. I really love the flavour of Hamelin and want him to be fun and balanced. This is why I am also in favour of small, incremental cuddles to him over time to try to find the right spot. There is nothing I hate more than overreactions Cuddling something so hard it loses its appeal and usefulness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 I'm sure whatever they decide upon will be great - the Chompy fix was really well done and I think they have definitely learned their lesson from Alps. BUT I wish they would hurry the hell up already. I don't think I can pull off a high table upset over Hamelin two cons in a row... I actually might even pick him up if they do a serious re-write, but as it is he does literally play himself - outside of Slaughter you more or less follow the formula and take a victory unless you are unlucky or your opponent happens to bring a very specific and normally sub-optimal crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alviaran Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Which crew is the sub optimal one that does well against him? (I'm not familiar enough with the tourney meta yet. I'm a veteran of tourneys in other games but Gencon is going to be my first Malifaux tournament) And yeah, as someone who only misses ONE thing from his GW days (Skaven! My poor rats!) and a fan of German folklore, I LOVE the idea of Hamelin. I'd love to play him. I just cannot right now. I already picked up Pandora. I'm at my limit of friendship ending masters. I hope that these threads though are inspiration to them and give them things to think about. I'm happy that people are remaining so civil about it too and offering a lot of great ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) Off the top of my head, as an Outcast player, I'd say Leveticus, Jack Daw and 2 Hanged. This crew is actually quite terrible in most match-ups, but devastates the Hamster. But who would ever select it in the current game where all you know is Strat and Opponent Faction? Other lists I can imagine would be Gaki-heavy Kirai (although Kirai herself is pretty good) and I am sure there is a Hoarcat pride based Marcus list that might work well with great hilarity! Edited August 8, 2012 by Guy in Suit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Which crew is the sub optimal one that does well against him? (I'm not familiar enough with the tourney meta yet. I'm a veteran of tourneys in other games but Gencon is going to be my first Malifaux tournament) I know nothing about overall match ups, but I'd be comfortable taking any of my other three masters against Hammy (Perdita, Hoffman and Levi). Once you know how Hammy works from his side of the table there are a lot of obvious pressure points to push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Which crew is the sub optimal one that does well against him? (I'm not familiar enough with the tourney meta yet. I'm a veteran of tourneys in other games but Gencon is going to be my first Malifaux tournament). Not sure about sub-optimal but Sonnia Criid and her vanilla Witchling Stalker crew has been said to give hamelin a lot of headaches. The Ortegas as well since they have ways of dumping Insignificant. ---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 AM ---------- I know nothing about overall match ups, but I'd be comfortable taking any of my other three masters against Hammy (Perdita, Hoffman and Levi). Once you know how Hammy works from his side of the table there are a lot of obvious pressure points to push. I wouldn't say that just knowing the "pressure points to push" is a consistent path to victory. For example Magicpockets faced several players in a tournament scene that knew Hamelin's tricks and brought purpose built lists to beat it and still couldn't produce the win against him. Granted it does help but Hamelin is a really forgiving Master to play and a difficult one to consistently win against. Additionally, playing against his "vanilla" crew is a hell of a lot different than his grow list and will require vastly different tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevelyan Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I wouldn't say that just knowing the "pressure points to push" is a consistent path to victory. For example Magicpockets faced several players in a tournament scene that knew Hamelin's tricks and brought purpose built lists to beat it and still couldn't produce the win against him. Granted it does help but Hamelin is a really forgiving Master to play and a difficult one to consistently win against. Additionally, playing against his "vanilla" crew is a hell of a lot different than his grow list and will require vastly different tactics. There is some truth in that, but using 'Hammy-as-played-by-Magicpockets' as the yardstick by which to assess him as a master is problematic in itself. By that measure most masters could be considered overpowered. While no one disputes that Hammy needs some adjustment, Magicpockets is/was also very vocal in insisting that the common perception of him was exaggerated, and he felt that he could perform well against Hammy. I don't think that knowing Hammy well makes him easy to beat, but it does a lot to level the playing field. The last game I played with Hammy was against Sonnia Criid with a Guild gunline and support from Austringers (not a crew I would have picked, but more effective than I had anticipated). My Hammy crew is the traditional mix of rats, 'Catchers, Stolen, Nix and the Wretch. In terms of range and damage output they had be totally outclassed and getting anywhere near my Claim Jump objective meant running into a hail of bullets. But I won that game because the guy playing the guild was so determined to take down Nix (kill protege) and my rat pack that he lost focus on his own objectives. Over six turns I was able to push the pack forward and keep it stocked with summoned Stolen and patch up the 'Catcher to reach my objective. The game ended with half of the Guild still within six inches of their deployment zone and outnumbered by my rats. The odd minion sent to achieve his own objectives had been easy prey for Hammy. Yes I had turned him insignificant at the cost of 2APs and a high card from my hand, but pretty much any master could have killed a guild guard in the same situation for the same effort. From one perspective it had been an easy win. But I spent the entire game hoping that he wouldn't move his guild en mass as I didn't have the numbers to block him and achieve my own objectives. I don't consider that a game I won so much as a game he lost. My basic advice for playing against Hammy would be twofold: 1) Focus primarily on your own objectives - make sure your own score is as high as possible; and 2) If you want to engage Hammy's crew in combat, focus fire on the lynchpin models (Nix, and the 'Catchers and occasionally Hammy himself) and take them down in one activation (including Companion activations) before they have a chance to heal. Under no circumstances waste time on the rats. I think a key area for errata remains the idea of turning Nihilism into an aura. That would require that Hammy stick close to his crew to render them effective and raises a tactical dilemma when it comes to the position of Stolen kept in reserve to resurrect him - if Stolen are too far back he'll be out of aura range, and if closer forward they are more vulnerable to being taken out on the same turn as Hammy himself. Keeping a stable of Stolen, some near the action and a reserve spare at the back, constitutes a drain on resources which is its own tactical consideration. I don't think the aura for Nix should be measurably small than for Hammy, if only because Nix is already one of three practically viable targets in a standard Hammy crew (together with at most two 'Catchers). Obliging him to sit right among the rats all the time means that he will die as soon as the pack is in range in every game - it makes things far too predictable, robs Nix of any flexibility, and makes Kill Protege an obvious and easy scheme for anyone playing against Hammy. The other key area for errata is to make the swarm far less fiddly to manage. Currently it gets multiple small attacks that can nickle and dime a target to death, relying on the fact that everyone will get a few poor card draws if attacked twice by half a dozen rats. Rather than imposing some sort of impediment on the number of activations a given rat can make, I'd be inclined to force the swarm to act more as a single entity. The swarm already activates together, why not extend that to attacking together as well? Oblige each rat within a given radius of the attacking rat (whether in melee range of the target or not - the swarm is more of an abstract) to assist the attack of the lead rat. This could produce a bonus to CB and/or damage based on the number of rats providing support, turning a multitude of small attacks into a single larger attack. Prevent rats from making or supporting more than one attack per activation (I leave the specific rules text up to someone else), and obviously prevent the pack from attacking itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 There is some truth in that, but using 'Hammy-as-played-by-Magicpockets' as the yardstick by which to assess him as a master is problematic in itself. By that measure most masters could be considered overpowered. Magic Pockets was/ is a very good player but he was also facing players that were very good and knowledgeable (by his own admission they knew what to expect and used purpose built lists against him). Not taking anything away from the man as he is definately a phenomenal player (and one that I definately respected) but Hamelin does have a lot of advantages that make winning a lot easier (in all aspects of play). He definately isn't the only yardstick though, several other players have called for fixes over the years as well. Sandwich being a very notable forumite (who put together the Hamelin tactica and offered a lot of recommendations on how to beat him). That particular thread had a lot of views and great recomendations and yet Hamelin is still a very dominant Master/ Crew today. It was required reading for a lot of my community when a completely new player (to mini gaming) brought and dominated our league running a very vanilla Hamelin crew. Additionally, with all the information that has been circulated in the last 2 years since release to the general public about Hamelin and his tricks (by prominent players and several playtesters), you'd think that his dominance would have waned significantly. As one of the people that has been involved with Hamelin a bit longer than most people in the community (and also involved with a lot of the recommendations for fixes), I would consider myself pretty knowledgeable of his tricks and shenanigans. I still strugle against him (and I do play almost all of the crews regularly). I am sure fixes are coming soonish though there aren't really a lot of easy ones for him (such as tightening core rules and closing loopholes that worked for other crews) that will tone him down without changing him completely (or they would have already been made). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I'll be testing out some of the proposed sets of rules soon, and will post batreps and thoughts when I do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (I'm putting this here instead of the batrep section because it relates specifically to these nerfs.) Nerf Playtesting #1 20 soulstone game, Gremlin's village, Scrap Pile Me: Hamelin, Obedient Wretch, The Stolen, Rat Catch, Malifaux Rat x 4. 2 Soulstone cache. Strategy: Line in the Sand. Scheme: Plague on Malifaux. Extermination (Construct.) Chris: Ramos, Avatar Ramos, Mobile Toolkit, Steampunk Arachnid x 4. 5 Soulstone cache. Strategy: Escape and Survive. Scheme: Sabotage, one unannounced. House Rules: Lure Malifaux Townsfolk is a (1) Spell with CC 13 usable once per turn per Crew. Malifaux Rats are placed in the same spot as the dead rat, rather than in base contact.Malifaux Rats can't Attack on the turn when they're Summoned. Ht 1 and Insignificant models can target Hamelin with a Wp->13 Bully duel. Result: Opponent resigned turn three. Turn One: Chris realized that Escape and Survive would be miserable for the crew he hired: since the Mobile Toolkit would go away when Ramos manifested, that meant to get 4 VP he would need to lose absolutely zero other models, and that combining the starting steampunk arachnids would mean he lost. He advanced up some. Mobile toolkit gave Ramos Books. Ramos summoned a Spider, and tried to summon an Electrical Creation, but failed the flip and decided not to Cheat it because it wasn't worth giving me another Card. Hamelin zipped up behind some cover, easily Summoned another The Stolen, who triggered the first dynamite counter. Obedient Wretch drifted behind and drew a card. The rats advanced up, the Rat catch moved up and killed them, and then the rats advanced up some more. Turn Two: Hamelin moved up. The Obedient Wretch drew a card and summoned one The Stolen using Magic Extension. The Rat Catcher scooted up but didn't kill the rats -- my mistake. The rats writhed on over to the next dynamite and triggered it. Ramos Summoned another Spider and an Electrical Creation. The Electrical creation moved up to engage. Two spiders (original, not summoned) moved up to the scrap heap and started fathering scrap. Turn Three: The Electrical Creation moved up and killed three rats plus one The Stolen, leaving four non-attack Rats. Rats swarmed up and triggered the third dynamite counter, moving toward the Scrap Pile. Three spiders (one original plus two summoned) combined to form a Steampunk Arachnid Swarm. Some more spiders gathered scrap from the Scrap pile. The rats moved up but couldn't attack because they were newly summoned. The Rat Catcher killed them but they didn't move up further because that would have put them out of range. The Obedient Wretch moved to catch up, then drew a card. Hamelin then sacrificed a The Stolen and cast Obedience to force the Steampunk Arachnid to Self-Destruct. At that point, Chris resigned. Overall impressions: The Ramos Crew wasn't really picked to fit the Strategy or opponent well, so I'm not sure yet, but the nerfs did not seem to be enough. Obedience is still vastly more powerful than Obey because it allows self-destruction. The nerf on the rats attacking worked out fairly nicely: they didn't have as much attack power, and more importantly the opponent had a reason to bother attacking them. Placing in the same spot instead of base contact sped things up nicely. Making summoning The Stolen a spell didn't really affect things much, and was occasionally an advantage since it meant the Wretch could do the job instead, but this might have been different if Hamelin had been killed. Having Ht 1 and Insignificant able to attack Hamelin seemed to make the situation seem less hopeless, but even with this change, Hamelin's spell power and efficient combinations made the game a really sure thing. I didn't play especially well and made several mistakes, and still was winning the game handily, and the opponent didn't really have any particularly openings or opportunities to win. Even with the nerfs, Hamelin's crew is fast, unkillable, and flexible. It's just that the rat swarm was now possible to counter. Conclusion: This game might have been a bad example, so I want to keep trying, but it really felt like these nerfs were not enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Making summoning The Stolen a spell didn't really affect things much, and was occasionally an advantage since it meant the Wretch could do the job instead, but this might have been different if Hamelin had been killed. Adding a caveat that only Hamelin can cast the spell would prevent that. Additionally, once Hamelin dies it will make a huge difference with that -4 to Ca. Conclusion: This game might have been a bad example, so I want to keep trying, but it really felt like these cuddles were not enough. I would agree that this particular game probably wasn't the best example of the proposed "fixes". By the Way can we call these "fixes" from now on rather than "cuddles" as the latter sends the wrong conotation for what you are really trying to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifonetto Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) I'd like to see a batrep using the change that Voracious Rats doesn't trigger off a Malifaux Rat being killed. Might we then see Hamelin grabbing more cheapie minions from other factions, which seems to have been the design intent to begin with? [EDIT: Umm, just flipped through the books and that's actually not very many models . . . still, though, might be worth a try?] Edited August 12, 2012 by Grifonetto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 I'd like to see a batrep using the change that Voracious Rats doesn't trigger off a Malifaux Rat being killed. Might we then see Hamelin grabbing more cheapie minions from other factions, which seems to have been the design intent to begin with? [EDIT: Umm, just flipped through the books and that's actually not very many models . . . still, though, might be worth a try?] Keep in mind that Hamelin has another power list utilizing Terror Tots that is very nasty as well. Keeping Voracious Rats from trigering off of them being killed would prevent a lot but definately changes the crew dramatically. I dont think such a heavy handed approach would be such a great thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted August 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) I'd like to see a batrep using the change that Voracious Rats doesn't trigger off a Malifaux Rat being killed. Might we then see Hamelin grabbing more cheapie minions from other factions, which seems to have been the design intent to begin with? [EDIT: Umm, just flipped through the books and that's actually not very many models . . . still, though, might be worth a try?] I would love to see that too, Grifonetto. You should give it a try and post one! ---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ---------- Adding a caveat that only Hamelin can cast the spell would prevent that. Additionally, once Hamelin dies it will make a huge difference with that -4 to Ca. Yeah, I think you're right on this. Good fix. I would agree that this particular game probably wasn't the best example of the proposed "fixes". Yeah, I'll do it for a few more. But here's the thing: A new casual player should be able to play against Hamelin with the small Crew he has, and still have an interesting, worthwhile match. You shouldn't have to buy extra models just to face Hamelin. By the Way can we call these "fixes" from now on rather than "Nerfs" as the latter sends the wrong conotation for what you are really trying to do. I sure don't mean to offend! I think both terms are appropriate, honestly, but I'm not sure what's wrong with "nerf." Edited August 13, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnivision6 Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Keep in mind that Hamelin has another power list utilizing Terror Tots that is very nasty as well. Keeping Voracious Rats from trigering off of them being killed would prevent a lot but definately changes the crew dramatically. I dont think such a heavy handed approach would be such a great thing. Id like to see it tested in games. Hamelin will still negate corpse, get rats from his own and enemy non-rat models, and Rat Catchers will still be able to get new rats (with an appropriate change). I dont see how that change is too heavy handed. Then again, we are both using theoryfaux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted August 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Id like to see it tested in games. Hamelin will still negate corpse, get rats from his own and enemy non-rat models, and Rat Catchers will still be able to get new rats (with an appropriate change). I dont see how that change is too heavy handed. Then again, we are both using theoryfaux. This seems interesting! do you have folks out there who can try it out? I'd love to see batreps. I'll probably try a similar set of fixes soon myself, but I have a lot of different game tests to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 I sure don't mean to offend! I think both terms are appropriate, honestly, but I'm not sure what's wrong with "cuddle." Oh no offense, it's just the conotations of the words that is important. "Fix" implies something completely different than "cuddle". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnivision6 Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 This seems interesting! do you have folks out there who can try it out? I'd love to see batreps. I'll probably try a similar set of fixes soon myself, but I have a lot of different game tests to do. I can try. But our local Hamelin player has been very busy lately. And he feels Hamelin is fine as-is, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 I have tested a lot of the "early" recommendations for Hamelin fixes. The change of Lure Malifaux Citizen from Action to Spell (only castable by Hamelin) and Bully to a Wp Resist helped a lot. The Rats are definately a tougher nut to crack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted August 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) Really, my goal in all of this is to get a playtested set of fixes so that my friends and I can use Hamelin around our FLGS while still enjoying the game. Eventually, I am sure the RMs will get out a set of rules changes that is just right and I'll happily use that. I am just looking for something to play in the meantime. That and I love rules tinkering. Edited August 13, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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