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Constructive Malifaux Feedback


Calmdown

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I think it's a bit of a push to say that these changes are based on a 'local meta' when my 'local meta' is the UK tournament scene and multiple disparate local club scenes. There are many comments that people do make which are 'meta biased' (such as the aforementioned Perdita being overpowered in metas with a lot of new players) but given the breadth of the UK tournament scene I dont feel that this is the case here.

Like it or not, you cant help bias creeping in unless it's written with feedback from a very wide selection of players from disparate groups. Some of these changes, to me, are absolutely a product of the UK gaming scene.

Marcus is a key example - if UKrocky didn't use him in the UK scene you and many others would have a far lower opinion of him as a Master. In fact, that you've listed no changes to him tells me that you don't understand Marcus all that well. UKrocky does incredibly well with him, but from my talks with him he does it by taking advantage of just three of his spells/talents - Beastmaster, Wild Heart and Defend Me to use him as a hit & run, Guerilla Warfare type Master. There are so many more aspects to him if you look at his card and if Malifaux were to be revised to the level your proposing I'd argue that he'd need another look at at least a few of his otherwise ignored talents and spells.

Overall, I disagree with your analysis of Black Jokers simply because it makes the game more interesting. Sure it introduces randomness, but I've yet to see a wargame that isn't random. I can see why competitive players would be interested in reducing the power of the Jokers, but if that was in a tournament that wouldn't be an event I'd be interested in attending.

I like some of your model changes but disagree with others. I think this is the sort of thing you can push too far with. It doesn't matter that some models are slightly over or underpowered since they're still usable, even in competitive games. What this sort of focus should be on are the models that are completely off the reservation in their power level, like the infamous Twins and the Malifaux Child. Not the Bayou Gremlins and Crooked Men of the game.

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I am curious who the gremlin players are in UK that have caused you so much angst! Man the changes proposed would make them TERRIBLE.

For the sake of my ego, I hope Ian's scared of me after our game at the ETC!

And all these people citing UkRocky as being good with Marcus? Come on now! We all know the Arcanist Main Man was carrying Mister Johnson to those lofty tourney heights, not the other way round!

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So, I trust your judgment on competitive play, but as a casual social player, I really hope that Som'er doesn't get nerfed.

What I have seen in my local meta is this: New players often pick up Som'er Teeth because he's funny. Then they get surprised and confused because he's complicated and because the starter pack isn't enough to play, and because he loses games. (This happened to me, specifically.) Weakening Som'er could really make it even more disappointing for a new player.

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What this sort of focus should be on are the models that are completely off the reservation in their power level, like the infamous Twins and the Malifaux Child.

This. This is it right here. If there were no Malifaux Child models anymore there would be 2x as many useful models in the game. And Wyrd would not have to release a single new sculpt to do it.

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Alrighty I havent read the changes as I view myself a bit to new to fully grasp them and as I am learning the game with Nicodem I would like to know how he is playable when a majority (from what I have seen so far) of masters and their crews do NOT drop corpse counters unless the master is killed. Of all the games I have heard of Nicodem even having a remote chance of winning was against other resser builds. Yes there are resser models that can create the corpse counters but most of those are at a price that depending on luck may or may not be possible as well as how the attrition unfolds during the game.

Now I havent played that many games as I would have liked so above is a small vacuum but I will say that if my first game hadnt been resser vs resser I would have probably never got into the game as who wants to try out an army that sounds interesting to have the one demoing the game take the Hamelins or pandora crews without a second thought. Or even a vik crew on a board with very little terrain and a lot of very good long ranged against a melee centered crew with no way to move. (and yes I know off topic but its still a thought to be looked at).

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The "fixes" to gremlins and pigs are really horrible (particularly making the Bayou Gremlins Insignificant and changing Deliverance from granting Terrifying). The book one stuff for the most part is fairly balanced (now that the infinite Skeeter and Red Joker draws have been addressed). The main abuses with gremlins really comes from the book 2 stuff. With 3 notable exceptions:

Larva should not work on Constructs or models with Object

Skeeters should not be able to be healed via Take a Swig

Get Your Bro shouldn't be able to be used as a card draw mechanic

Though the current sentiment may be that Some'r is OP, the reality is that it is the book 2 stuff that really make them out of sync.

My biggest recommendation is to fix the Pigapult by:

Losing the gremlin Characteristic

Restricting it to only launch insignificant models (definately no Masters/ Henchman)

Launch'n Df flip raised a point or two so it is more of a risk.

Having assisted in the devolpment of a lot of the Gremlin Tacticas, these are the changes I would recommend and that wouldn't horribly hamstring the crew.

The only thing I waver back and forth on is adding a Resist to A gremlins Luck. Because of the Low Ca's of the two models that can use it any resist would make the spell very difficult to actually get off. I think a better option is to just limit it to once per turn (coupled with the healing limitation recommended above it would really address the main issue the spaming of the ability). And yes I have actually playtested all of these suggestions.

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The only thing I waver back and forth on is adding a Resist to A gremlins Luck. Because of the Low Ca's of the two models that can use it any resist would make the spell very difficult to actually get off. I think a better option is to just limit it to once per turn (coupled with the healing limitation recommended above it would really address the main issue the spaming of the ability).

Once per Crew per turn, might be alright. But when you have so many models that can cast it (and seeing as Skeeters can only cast it once a turn anyway), then Once per turn doesn't seem to be a big enough change. Or maybe, reword it so Skeeters can't cast it. You're going to be more sparing with Somer's wounds than you are with Skeeters' wounds.

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I find it very interesting that the only negative change on your list for Lilith is that her defense is lowered by one point. She does however gains the ability to charge or strike models without having line of sight. To me this seems like an improvement overall. Why improve a model which UKRockys claims is currently wrecking your tournament scene. The Comp Pack has her SS cash essentially reduced by 3.

Similarly you have the Doppelganger being reduced in effectiveness by weakening ill-omens. The Comp pack has the Doppelganger as being reduced in price by one SS with no other changes making her better.

I was under the impression that the UK comp scene had a general consensus on what changes should be proposed.

Edited by Twisted Metal
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I agree wholeheartedly about the Strategies and Schemes, they are by far considered to be the biggest flaw of the game by the guys I play with regularly.

What I'm not sure you can manage is to make every model balanced and competitive. Especially when you look at things from a competitive standpoint. There will always be models that just don't work as well as others, buff them and you will relegate other fringe models to the useless zone. Competitive players will always look for the best models to achieve their goals, this will always fall on the shoulders of a few models, no matter how hard you try, because power levels are all relative. Every action in changing a model creates a reaction in effectiveness of the rest of your available model pool.

This is fine in my opinion. There will always be models that people won't want to take to win with that might take it for fun / fluff / they like the sculpt / a challenge. It's just the nature of tabletop gaming.

The other point I'd like to add is about 'power creep'. This is a necessary evil in my opinion when it comes to any form of tabletop / card game, especially for smaller companies like Wyrd. A new book comes out, the models are slightly better, everyone goes out and buys them, $$$. If all the new models were on par with the models people already had, well that is just bad business. A car company improves every year's new model so that people will want to upgrade, why should Nathan, Eric & co deny themselves income? Once you embrace that, retiring some models and looking at how to best utilize your new options becomes as much a part of the game as anything. You can always go back to older models for nostalgic fun games, but to try to maintain a complete balance while continuing to grow the business and generate income is laughable.

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I find it very interesting that the only negative change on your list for Lilith is that her defense is lowered by one point. She does however gains the ability to charge or strike models without having line of sight. To me this seems like an improvement overall.

I thought that master of Malifaux has always granted her this. She "ignores terrain when drawing LoS".

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I thought that master of Malifaux has always granted her this. She "ignores terrain when drawing LoS".

Yep. This change basically stops her Transpositioning through walls, which is hellishly broken. She still retains the ability to charge, strike, etc. That in itself is amazing but casting Transposition too was a bit ott.

Also Df 9 is stil ridiculous, but again, I was aiming to not 'completely cuddle' and rather 'tone down' the crazy stuff.

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Also Df 9 is stil ridiculous, but again, I was aiming to not 'completely cuddle' and rather 'tone down' the crazy stuff.

Df 9? I think you'll find it's 8.

What's your reasoning behind tots losing flay? Without it they just kinda look weak things just to grow. What if people will not be growing them?

Is the Primordial Magic generally considered overpowered?

No reduction in Nekima's points cost? Seems like 11 would be nicer, more in line with Snow Storm.

I don't really know about any of the other factions to comment. Nice to see something more detailed for comment rather than "all this is $$$$$$ and this ALL needs to be buffed".

Edited by LupusFerreus
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There is quite a bit of good constructive criticism within this thread.

~Calmdown: we appreciate it, and especially appreciate criticism not buried in sarcasm, ridicule, assumption, or other hostile tone that causes an immediate defensive wall. Good job.

Looking through the spreadsheet and this thread, I don't think it's crossing any lines to openly admit that the Dev team has identified many of those issues and have discussed a number of suggestions mentioned (sometimes well before this thread!). So we're more or less on the same page. Some, of course, we'll have to disagree on and you'll have to take it or leave it.

Who knows when or how any changes (if any) will get rolled out, but it's worth acknowledging that we're not only listening to suggestions such as these, but we talk about some similar points ourselves. Some [potential changes], even more aggressively than suggested here!

;)

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The other point I'd like to add is about 'power creep'. This is a necessary evil in my opinion when it comes to any form of tabletop / card game, especially for smaller companies like Wyrd. A new book comes out, the models are slightly better, everyone goes out and buys them, $$$.

Just because there is a new book, doesn't mean you have to put better models in it. You put models in that take a different approach, favour a different playstyle etc. They don't necessarily have to be better overall, just better when played a certain way etc.

A car company improves every year's new model so that people will want to upgrade, why should Nathan, Eric & co deny themselves income?

This is a strange argument to make. Comparing a new model of a car to a new model in a game is obscure at best. A car company brings out a new car with better technology, better design, and improvements in other similar areas. A gaming company brings out a new model with better design due to new modelling technologies, or they revise the rules as a whole to keep up with how the game is progressing. They are 2 very different ways of looking at business.

---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 PM ----------

There is quite a bit of good constructive criticism within this thread.

~Calmdown: we appreciate it, and especially appreciate criticism not buried in sarcasm, ridicule, assumption, or other hostile tone that causes an immediate defensive wall. Good job.

Looking through the spreadsheet and this thread, I don't think it's crossing any lines to openly admit that the Dev team has identified many of those issues and have discussed a number of suggestions mentioned (sometimes well before this thread!). So we're more or less on the same page. Some, of course, we'll have to disagree on and you'll have to take it or leave it.

Who knows when or how any changes (if any) will get rolled out, but it's worth acknowledging that we're not only listening to suggestions such as these, but we talk about some similar points ourselves. Some [potential changes], even more aggressively than suggested here!

;)

Nice to see you guys are being proactive as well as reactive. I think the community at large would like a lot of these problems sewn up (especially those of us who have been playing since book 1, and see that some of the same problems still remain).

Good luck sorting all this out. =p

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And a car company immediately obsoletes their older models by replacing one model with the new.

We wouldn't want to play that way.

---------- Post added at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 AM ----------

Nice to see you guys are being proactive as well as reactive. I think the community at large would like a lot of these problems sewn up (especially those of us who have been playing since book 1, and see that some of the same problems still remain).

Good luck sorting all this out. =p

We're extremely proactive in a way that would clearly surprise many of the critics that pop up on our forums.

We discuss and fight about a lot of stuff, often before anyone even mentions a problem online. Then, one of the oppositional Devs will say, "If it's a problem then why has no one brought it up online?" and then, weeks later, when it does, the first Dev will copy the link and say, "Told you!" and then go "na na na, poopy head!"

The problem for those online vocal critics is, I think, they want rather immediate gratification to a problem they perceive with an exact fix that they perceive is not only the best, but sometimes the only correct fix. But then, we'd be machine-gunning errata, all over the forums....

Instead, we first acknowledge a problem - the scope of the problem, then discuss how best to fix it. Then, how to address the fix and present it. Clearly, we really cannot just throw an errata out on the forum willy-nilly any longer. Then a different set of critics say [justifiably] "Oh noes! You cannot expect me to find every change in every thread! Wyrd changes everything all the time! It's unplayable!"

It's hard to win.

So we compile and we test and then we roll out a comprehensive change and a different set of critics complain, "It took too long. My playgroup gave up because Misaki's "Wind" irritated us."

;)

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As a very new Malifaux player, but very old Warhammer player, it's extremely refreshing to play a game where the designers and developers interact so openly with their playerbase. GW's secrecy has driven lots of their long-time players away from their games, so i hope that you guys can stay as willing to engage in these kinds of discussion as you currently are.

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Its the openness and willingness to listen that Wyrd regularly exhibits that make me continue to hide from my wife how much money I spend on this game... :)

I sympathize with the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation you are in.

Speaking only for myself, the occasional reminder that you are listening and that the community is not $$$$$$$$ing in the wind when it brings up what it perceives to be issues goes a long way to placating concerns. I think that you have done a nice job of exactly that in this thread.

In particular by admitting that you have internally identified some of the same issues.

Its not at all surprising that you have come to different conclusions on some of them too, as evidenced by the course of this thread, so has the community.

Again, speaking only for myself, sometimes its difficult to get used to interacting with a gaming company that has as many active listeners since many of us carry baggage from previous games.

That having been said, more soulstones for Seamus and Nicodem tomorrow please...

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When looking at Calmdowns list, I would place the re-tuning of Strategies and Schemes at the top. I would also like to see some new strategies and schemes added to mix. I was hoping each book would add a few new ones.

The biggest issue I have is the disparity between faction and master schemes when compared to each other. I would like to see an easy/hard approach. Each faction gets a few easier to accomplish schemes and a few hard ones. Same idea for the Master specific schemes. I would also like to see an official rule change where your opponent picks one scheme for you. This idea has been used during holiday tournaments but I would like to see it become the official norm.

The other issue I agree with on Calmdowns list is going back and taking a look at Book 1 models. I believe just re-tuning some of the model's cost rather then changing stats would be fine. I looked at Calmdowns spread sheet and he did have quite a few good suggestions, even though his suggestions are more along the line of changing models stats and abilities. I did find myself disagreeing as much as I agreed when I looked at each model listed.

It cannot be denied that his opinion comes from a Resser perspective. That faction had more buffing than any other and a faction that he must be getting the smack down from Outcast since it seemed to receive the cuddle bat. The cuddle to the gremlins and Von Shill are over the top in my opinion. I do agree that maybe some tweaks need to be made.

Coming from my perspective of facing Neverborn most of the time in my play area, I would like to see some balancing in that faction. I don’t know if it was an over sight but I did not see the Stitched Together even mentioned on the list. That is the best 5 stone model in the game by a large margin. I like the model and I am not advocating Cuddling his abilities, although if I were to pick one it would be reducing his 3/4/7 damage out put. I would really like to see the cost of the stitched go up to 6 stones. Neverborn would still take 2 or 3 of them but the higher cost would at least eat into their Masters Soulstone pool or force them not to take a heavy hitter minion.

Of course I have this perspective on the stitched because I face him so often. Calmdown is probably tired of facing Som’er/Gremlins the way they are and Von Shill as well, with the beat down Von Shill can do to undead. In my play area only 1 other guy besides me is currently playing Som’er and I only started playing him 3 months ago. I decided to give Ramos a break.

I appreciate the fact that Wyrd is looking into many of these issues and more than likely will be addressing them in the future. I think Wyrd does a fantastic job trying to do the best they can to make their customers happy. They don’t have thousands of employees to make changes as quickly as its customers might like to see.

As far as the Red/Black Jokers, I don’t have a problem with them. I have won and lost an equal amount of games because of an un-timely flip from those two. If I want to play a game that has no luck and all strategy I will go back to chess. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to attempt to make the game as fun and balanced as possible. In the end it's up to Wyrd to figure those parameters out.

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On the stitched ( & Wicked doll)

As Collodi has gottne hit pretty bad; the marionettes have gotten hit really bad; you really can't touch them w/o escalating the cuddles.

And it doesn't look that bad; but losing hard to wound on the marionetes means that instead ofa reliable 2 atacks per doll you go to 1.3 attacks per doll to take them out. It also increases the change of blasts (so lets say 2 more hits) and the Rare drop hinders it even more.

So a collady ball used to take ~11 attacks to take out (2 per doll, 3 for Collodi) Now you lose 2 from 1 less doll, 2 from dolls dieing easier, 2 from the blasts that will start procking; so you go to ~5 attacks, maybe 6 or 7 if blasts don't factor in. That is about a 50% drop in survivability of the ball (but a 2 point discount)

The attack output also droped by ~50% (no more melee expert, and no more Flurry, and 1 less dolll => ~10 less attack (used to be up to 20 attacks for the 4 dolls).

Mobility droped by 25%; loss of doll is now a 33% drop as where before it was a 25% drop for the first doll. And as mentioned dolls drop faster.

All that and leaving the stitched as is could be argued; but hitting the stitched on top of that starts to get kinda silly.

Again, focussing on Collodi as that is my main master (never used him as a henchman actually). Will he still win a shared deliver the message; absolutely as I'll still kill im before he accepts anything. Is he still the best dead master in never born; yep, 5 free points are awesome.

So as far as a special forces doll perspective I'd be really puzzled if this wasn't done to leave the stitched as they were.

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Curious as to something Calmdown. One of the changes that was heavily discussed in a thread about Seamus' power level a few months ago was an adjustment to his spell Live for Pain. In the thread I feel most people who commented on it felt it would be an appropriate change to remove the Ranged Icon from it, allowing Seamus to cast the spell in melee. I'm curious as to why you feel it is still appropriate to leave that spell as is. Not saying you are wrong or that you missed it, but just curious as to your thinking.

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The problem is that Stitched aren't just used with Collodi.

yep, and it is a pretty obnoxious piece. So if the stitched also gets hit then .... well ... err... what's left of special forces dolls?

My guess is that he sees Collodi as a henchman and he is trying to remove him as an "easy answer to sceme / stratigy whatever" And yep with all of those changes you have a much more fragile pieces that can't really do much more than tag the objectives (assuming it doesn't explode before hand).

But I don't know; and reading over what is there I don't understand why a master is so OMGWTFBBQ busted that he gets trimmed in half in 2 dimmensions (damage, survivability) and losses a quarter in the last (mobility). He is good, but damn, he is not sturdy, nor is his crew; And yep I have an amazing record with him; but I usually have 0-2 models on the board by turn 5.

I'm not saying the changes are good / bad; but that is because half the special forces models were left off. So it is a bit hard to understand the picture with the half he has shared.

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Re: Gremlin changes, if you kept the changes but made Deliverance a (0) I'd be happier. As it is, Bayou Gremlins pretty much *have* to go Reckless if you want them to objective capture (unless by some miracle they manage to survive a whole turn next to the objective), and with their Wds reduced I don't think they should ever be forced into going Reckless.

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@bashamer - Players in our area had a hard time dealing with Collodi as both master and henchman when he was first released as well. Since that time, players have learned how to deal with him. Now players have trouble dealing with him when skilled players use him, just like every other crew skilled players use.

Collodi is great for some strategies, and not as great for others. I imagine that's part of the intention to having 13 strategies to pick from (26 if you count shared vs individual) before moving to Story Encounters.

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