Finally read the Errata/clarification page

[PierceSternum]

I'm still a bit curious what any of this has to do with the faq

I never saw OP or anyone else say this long-winded "treatment" was about the new FAQ.

Sandwich appears to have only recently noticed some of the errata'ed cards from a while ago.

Edited June 11, 2012 by PierceSternum

[Brandu]

I'm still a bit curious what any of this has to do with the faq

From the first page by the OP:

There is not one significant and powerful model under the resser's plethora that is not usable by another faction that uses it better.

Even the Dead Rider's new deal of dropping ONE corpse counter and TWO scrap counters.

And Night Terrors, our designated objective grabber, is really meant for LCB.

Who has an entire bury mechanic designed for models like them.

And I pretty much agree with the OP as to how much the Ressers have become a "But you have Kirai" faction.

Of course, we have the "You don't really know how to play" them comments too.

We don't have the junkiest Master (IMO that would be Marcus) but we do have (again, this is IMO) the least effective all around Faction.

As a side note:

I don't really need to comment on the Guild's Exorcist here do I? He messes over the entire Resser Faction. (The only mitigating factor is that he is ugly to Leveticus and LCB also)

Edited June 11, 2012 by Brandu

[Rathnard]

To be honest, I'm still not convinced that the Ressers as a whole are a bad enough Faction to be a serious issue. Other factions getting the same minions you can use (Night Terrors, Dead Rider etc) is no excuse and while Molly is arguably the least effective henchman available, Ressers still have access to the best (Von Schill) and unlike other factions, lose little by taking him (SF: Horrors haven't been great thus far).

I guess having a low mobility crew can be an issue under the right strategies/schemes and the Resser crews definitely don't have that Neverborn level of mobility. But they do still have some great movement tricks (Rotten Belles being prime examples) but I think they make up for it in attrition. They're often quite capable of taking a few hits, and that can be a great benefit when you need to hold ground (eg. Claim Jump).

I'm still a bit curious what any of this has to do with the faq

I doesn't. It never did.

But in any case...

And to top off everything else...out of the 9 finalist of this years US Masters, 3 of them were Ressers, and the final table wasn't Neverborn but Outcast.

Uh oh, Tournament results have started being used to back up assertions. Abandon ship!! ;P

[Gruesome]

Ressers still have access to the best (Von Schill) and unlike other factions, lose little by taking him (SF: Horrors haven't been great thus far).

Heh... Not sure thats really a point in rezzer favor though. "We can take Von Schill because our special forces are not good."

Uh oh, Tournament results have started being used to back up assertions. Abandon ship!! ;P

Except that the results did not really back anything up. (Not that they ever do)

[ravenborne]

They are not a bad faction. They just have some serious design synergy problems, which has a lot to do with the evolution of rules changes, from things like corpse counter generation to the swing away from the number of living models, and some suit issues. This is why they seem to work well on paper but in actual practice it's very hard to get practical use out of their tricks.

For example my favorite faction to play my rezzers against is Guild. I pretty much know there will be living models I can affect and corpse counters will be around, and they aren't going to be so fast that I can't in any way compete for speed. It just means that most of my stuff is going to be useful, and win or lose that is what should be important from a design perspective.

.

---------- Post added at 12:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------

As for tournament results, we need to know what Masters were played, not just te factions for the data to be even remotely relevant to this discussion.

Edited June 11, 2012 by ravenborne
Bad wifi on tablet fail!

[Justin]

I never saw OP or anyone else say this long-winded "treatment" was about the new FAQ.

Sandwich appears to have only recently noticed some of the errata'ed cards from a while ago.

I see. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Nothing in the FAQ/errata is really new to ressers, so the thread title was a bit confusing.

---------- Post added at 09:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------

From the first page by the OP:

There is not one significant and powerful model under the resser's plethora that is not usable by another faction that uses it better.

Even the Dead Rider's new deal of dropping ONE corpse counter and TWO scrap counters.

And Night Terrors, our designated objective grabber, is really meant for LCB.

Who has an entire bury mechanic designed for models like them.

And I pretty much agree with the OP as to how much the Ressers have become a "But you have Kirai" faction.

Of course, we have the "You don't really know how to play" them comments too.

We don't have the junkiest Master (IMO that would be Marcus) but we do have (again, this is IMO) the least effective all around Faction.

As a side note:

I don't really need to comment on the Guild's Exorcist here do I? He messes over the entire Resser Faction. (The only mitigating factor is that he is ugly to Leviticus and LCB also)

The bury mechanic errata makes Lcb less powerful. So, saying Neverborn got more love in the FAQ/errata because they have more rulings is just a bit confusing to me.

Also, I have not and will not try to tell you that you do not know how to play ressers if they are not working for you.

[Math Mathonwy]

To be honest, I'm still not convinced that the Ressers as a whole are a bad enough Faction to be a serious issue. Other factions getting the same minions you can use (Night Terrors, Dead Rider etc) is no excuse and while Molly is arguably the least effective henchman available, Ressers still have access to the best (Von Schill) and unlike other factions, lose little by taking him (SF: Horrors haven't been great thus far).

This must be the craziest logic I've yet seen used to defend that there is nothing wrong with the Ressers (their own choices are so bad that you won't miss out on anything by taking Outcasts instead).

[Gruesome]

As for tournament results, we need to know what Masters were played, not just te factions for the data to be even remotely relevant to this discussion.

I saw 1 Kirai, but the player did not play her every round. I do not remember if he was one of the Qualifiers.

I *DO* know that the two rezzer qualifiers that did not get in by virtue of declines were running McMourning every time I saw them.

I ran Nicodem the whole time. (Did not come close to qualifying)

There were also 2 or possibly 3 Seamus players that I saw.

To sum it up, to the best of my knowledge, no Non-McMourning or Kirai players made it to the masters top 8.

Speaking for myself, its hard to blame Nicodem for any of my mistakes. (I will blame the whiskey, instead)

My favorite mistake was having grudge and the target model was standing next to Nicodem with one wound.

I forgot I had grudge and wanted to pull off my first ever Nicodem enemy model melee kill...

d'oh!

I will say that for my first and only melee kill of an enemy model with Nicodem, it will be forever memorable. That round I was pretty much dead anyway... It was claim jump on a VERY open board. Perhaps the most open in the tournament and I was playing against Rasputina who could just nuke 75% of the board once she was in position. Living to get anywhere near the center was not happening.

I was also introduced to the "joys" of convict gunslinger when your opponent has a hand of high mask cards... So many ranged attacks on such an open board...

Still, had a blast. As I said above in a prior post somewhere, I tend to agree with OP's points on many things, but I disagree about the differences being so large or insurmountable and obvious.

And, I have yet to find myself NOT enjoy playing.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Gruesome

[Rathnard]

This must be the craziest logic I've yet seen used to defend that there is nothing wrong with the Ressers (their own choices are so bad that you won't miss out on anything by taking Outcasts instead).

Well the arguement being made was that Resser crews are weak compared to other factions, and Molly was used as an example. The point I was getting at is that the fact that Molly is bad is about as relevant to the discussion as the assertion that the Malifaux Child is bad when talking about the Outcasts Faction. Both aren't exactly amazing, but they don't drag their respective factions down because there are excellent alternatives to those models (ie. Von Schill for Molly, Student for the Child).

The fact that Von Schill is actually an Outcast isn't relevant. The Ressers as a faction can take him, and he is a very capable model in a Resser Crew.

[Math Mathonwy]

Well the arguement being made was that Resser crews are weak compared to other factions, and Molly was used as an example. The point I was getting at is that the fact that Molly is bad is about as relevant to the discussion as the assertion that the Malifaux Child is bad when talking about the Outcasts Faction. Both aren't exactly amazing, but they don't drag their respective factions down because there are excellent alternatives to those models (ie. Von Schill for Molly, Student for the Child).

(as an aside, I need to Ctrl+A to read your text since pink on white is such a horrid combo, so I usually skip your posts - don't be offended if I don't respond to you further as it's simply because I've forgotten to read your post)

That's completely silly. It's a bit like saying that pre-Dreamer cuddle Neverborn sucked since if you weren't playing Dreamer you should've been playing Dreamer and therefore the faction was lousy.

Having bad Special Forces isn't a plus, it's a negative. Having the possibility to use one's good special forces or the Freikorps is a benefit that other factions have over the Ressers. Having option is good. I can't believe I need to point this out. By your logic you could argue that were every non-Spirit Resser 10SS more costly than they are now, Ressers would still be just as good as the other factions since Kirai would still be competitive.

[Orboros]

I still can't understand all the buzz and heated discussion. Outside of the tournament meta you can win with every Master in the game because then you are playing for fun.

If you play in a Tournament you take Kirai or McMourning, whom i consider to be our "Top-Tier" Masters (yeah i said it). This is not different with any other faction and any other game. In WarmaHordes you pick EHaley in Tournaments as a Cygnar player or Gaspy as a Cryx player.

There will always be better and worse Masters but after two years of playing Malifaux the only over the top Masters ever to be present were Dreamer, who got cuddled and Hamelin, who is about to get cuddled. On a faction basis this game is balanced.

Molly will get new stuff to play with for sure, it was even announced. So why don't we all calm down a bit ^^

[UberGruber]

I think the point is that in an ideal world not only would every faction be balanced but also (to maximise choice within one's chosen faction) every master, henchman and minion would be balanced for their points and synergies.

Clearly that's impossible to achieve given the number of model choices in the game and the number of special rules each model has. Nobody is seriously going to demand that sort of 'true balance' be achieved.

However I think it's the 'choice within faction' that's the key issue for people here. If your faction has 5 masters and any one of those five is as good as the other (assuming the Strategy and opposing faction are good matches for your chosen master and you choose appropriate schemes), then there's no problem.

The real problem occurs where you have one or two masters within a faction who are simply better at most of the strategies and/or against all opponents than the others are. Because that restricts your real choice (unless you want to handicap yourself 'for fun').

The other issue, it seems to me, is 'oh other factions can use 'my' models better than I can'. What ideally you'd want is for any given faction of 5 masters for each to be best suited against a particular opposing faction and in fact for there to be relatively little cross-faction use of minions except with the sort of 'premium' that mercenaries come with because that would help maintain balance (tweaking a minion specific to one faction will not have the impact that tweaking a minion available at the same cost to 3 factions might.

But as the game seems to be an evolving thing and there will doubtless be more factions and more models for eisting factions forthcoming, I think you have to accept that grosser imbalances will occur. And whilst they can and doubtless will be corrected by errata and new rules editions, it's worth bearing in mind that the more that sort of thing happens, the more unwieldy the game gets. Look at how 40K is routinely castigated for lack of balance, poor rules writing and has generated a mass of FAQ. Relative merits of the two games aside, it's the case that Malifaux already has far more complex interplay of units and special rules than 40K does.

If there comes a period where nothing much new is added to the mix then rules can be adjusted to give better balance. But each new release will almost inevitably upset existing the balance of any game.

I think it's something that can certainly be commented on, but it's an inevitable side effect of the way the game's expanding.

[Stryder]

The fault lies not with the resser faction, but with the other factions for having nothing living anymore...which is what stuff like Crooligans and Hanged are good against. Of course, if everything was living, then would ressers be OP? Methinks yes.

[Math Mathonwy]

However I think it's the 'choice within faction' that's the key issue for people here. If your faction has 5 masters and any one of those five is as good as the other (assuming the Strategy and opposing faction are good matches for your chosen master and you choose appropriate schemes), then there's no problem.

The real problem occurs where you have one or two masters within a faction who are simply better at most of the strategies and/or against all opponents than the others are. Because that restricts your real choice (unless you want to handicap yourself 'for fun').

Aye, this. Why should I handicap myself by playing a Resser other than Kirai? Why have Wyrd released the other three fourths of the faction if the idea has always been that Kirai is the sole Resser master worth playing (unless I want to handicap myself)? That's not very a very good idea, so I'm pretty certain that it isn't deliberate.

Now, I don't personally think that the situation is all that horrid and I'm not losing players due to this imbalance, but I can certainly see Sandwich's frustration over the issue and dismissing it as a non-issue is disingenuous at best.

[Gruesome]

IMO, hyperbole is clouding much of this discussion.

Rezzer vs. neverborn is NOT EQUAL to necrons(before latest codex) vs. space wolves.

The OP gave that vibe to me and I think that many of the replies have been based upon that level of perceived disparity.

Speaking only for myself, I think the differences are considerably smaller and, above all, I still enjoy playing as often as possible as a rezzer.

A couple master tweaks (Soulstones for nico and seamus so they are not forced into smaller crews to start the game since they are so reliant on having as many SS as possible)

and maybe some strats and schemes that better take advantage of our plethora of specialists and I think its a different conversation.

But, I would also say that a number of people that have apparently been playing the rezzers for as long as there have been rezzers are saying some consistent things that a few others with admittedly less experience with them are arguing against because they "read something" or "see some synergies in the books".

The notion that one side is right and the other is completely wrong is not helpful and simply an argument for argument's sake.

If someone that has all these ideas about making rezzers better it would be useful to show it rather than post about it.

Marcus was a whipping boy for Malifaux until some talented players took the time to make him better.

Perhaps all the rezzers that are struggling simply suck at the game and all that's really needed is for the right person to turn the tides and show how OVERPOWERED Seamus is.

(Even my shiny new aSeamus runs like a little girl from the Watcher... A 3 point guild model with a weapon range of 16 inches)

I appreciated Calmdown's thread for rezzers, but his attempts at Seamus and Nicodem did not seem to last very long and I seem to recall quite a bit of Von Schill-ness...

[Brandu]

I see. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Nothing in the FAQ/errata is really new to ressers, so the thread title was a bit confusing.

The bury mechanic errata makes Lcb less powerful. So, saying Neverborn got more love in the FAQ/errata because they have more rulings is just a bit confusing to me.

Also, I have not and will not try to tell you that you do not know how to play ressers if they are not working for you.

What we're saying is that it seems that other Factions can use 'our' minions better than we can ourselves. They synergize(sp?) better with out faction Masters. Maybe it's a misconception, but I don't think it is at this time.

And no, you personally have not said anything like that. That said, some of Wyrd's Henchmen have. You might wish to remind them that when they post, or when in person speak, as a Henchman, they are seen by some people as a representative of Wyrd. For good or bad....

---------- Post added at 09:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------

If the answer to our asking why Molly seems so understrength compared to others is to get an answer of: Use Von Schill.... Then yes, there is a problem.

and I SO agree with Gruesome about the Watcher....

[UberGruber]

If the answer to our asking why Molly seems so understrength compared to others is to get an answer of: Use Von Schill.... Then yes, there is a problem.

Yes. There should be at least one (and I would argue in fact at least three) Resurrectionist master for whom Molly is an obviously better choice than von Schill in most circumstances. If that's not true then whilst the problem may not be game balance, but certainly would be a problem of 'faction flavour'.

[Cadilon]

and I SO agree with Gruesome about the Watcher....

And why is that? Because it removes Terrifying, Harmless, Pitiful, and cover modifiers?

[pandasauce]

When Blizzard, owners of WoW found that one class was drastically more powerful than another, they didn't say "Well, the Dev team is trying hard, but we can't be better."

They cuddled and buffed and worked their *sses off to get that perfect sense of harmony.

Did they mess up sometimes? Sure did.

Did they fix their mistakes? Yes.

The argument I'll receive for that is, and I will quote

"There's 9 classes in WoW, there's 100 models in Malifaux."

No.

There's 9 classes with 100 abilities that matter deeply.

Maybe you misunderstand the difference between developing a digital game that can easily be changed often with updates and patches and a tabletop game where making more models and additional rules books happens much less often. While yes, adding rules supplements and erratas are quite simple enough to do, it is not ideal for the company to have to tell new players "yes all the rules in the book are correct... except there are additional rules that must be found online and checked every day".

Most players will want to play casually and for fun. If there is a tournament event they will likely join because competing is fun and meeting new people is fun. There will always be competitive WAAC players, and I am not saying you are one, but you sure sound like one.

I played Ramos as my main for a long time before his avatar came out even though people told me hes the slowest, least interesting, and down-right worst Arcanist master. Being confident that one of the most intelligent men in Malifaux couldn't possibly be bad, I stuck with my gut feeling and to this day have an undefeated record with Ramos not including several tie games(most of which were achieved with the basic box set plus more spiders and mobile toolkit).

Saying that a faction or a master is underpowered is ridiculous to me. I mean I complain about LCB a lot, but I've never lost to him and the people I play that main him as their MVP master are very intelligent and experienced players. I also have Nicodem and Seamus, while still less experienced with them both, I have pulled out wins in 75% of the games I play with them.

Maybe you just think that the faction is not as ridiculously flavorful as others? Thats just my guess because both on paper and in practice the ressers are zombies and undead monstrosities, and that is what they will always be. Colette, Lillith, LCB, Collodi are all tricky and their play style fits the fluff perfectly. Do you really want super sneaky, very fast, and very clever zombies? Lets review: zombies are shambling recreations of things that once were, and they have little to no cognitive power(thats why the masters exist to command them). These features are contradictory to the very being of an undead creature.

I may sound sorta madbro, and you say you aren't attacking the game or the company... but you did come out and say the Dev's aren't trying hard enough and are favoring certain models/factions. Which to me, is a blatant attack at the game and it's creators. Not only is this rude, its also an opinion you have and not fact(and saying "I know this to be true as a fact etc" does not make it so).

So after all my rambling and blabbing, please keep opinionated WAAC talk to yourself. Malifaux is a game. Games are meant to be fun. So stop ruining it for yourself and others. It is this kind of thread that puts these silly opinionated thoughts out into the public and get people to believe such heavily opinion and non fact-based things.

Cheers =]

-Pandasauce

REMINDER:This is me speaking as a gamer, not an official representative of what Wyrd does or says which is explained in the Henchman thread. So take my words with a grain of salt, they hold no gravity really and are indeed my own opinions =]

Don't want to start any waves, just don't like seeing my favorite game/company being attacked or belittled.

Edited June 11, 2012 by pandasauce

[Gruesome]

And why is that? Because it removes Terrifying, Harmless, Pitiful, and cover modifiers?

And not only that, but its a 3 point model that is significant with flying and immune to influence, so it is sort of an easy include regardless of who the guild was facing rather than being a very niche specialist whose purpose is to counter specific situations. (Like aSeamus)

It cannot be paralyzed or lured or hurt by the vast majority of rezzer ranged spells.

It makes sense to include it most of the time becase of its speed, utility and objective grabbing potential.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Gruesome

[Math Mathonwy]

Saying that a faction or a master is underpowered is ridiculous to me. I mean I complain about LCB a lot, but I've never lost to him and the people I play that main him as their MVP master are very intelligent and experienced players. I also have Nicodem and Seamus, while still less experienced with them both, I have pulled out wins in 75% of the games I play with them.

No master is underpowered? And then, in the next sentence, implying that no Master is overpowered. Wow.

So after all my rambling and blabbing, please keep opinionated WAAC talk to yourself.

man what

Malifaux is a game. Games are meant to be fun. So stop ruining it for yourself and others.

So all of a sudden Sandwich is ruining this game?

It is this kind of thread that puts these silly opinionated thoughts out into the public and get people to believe such heavily opinion and non fact-based things.

It's a good thing that you based your post on pure fact ("I win a lot so therefore everything must be fine").

Sheesh.

That was some post.

[Ratty]

OK people, I think it's getting to the stage where this thread is just name calling and one-up-manship. I think it's time we called it.